Interesting. Even if a friend did the "taking" as an attemp to aid in covering up the accident, it would benefit the McCanns at this point to go along with the ruse. Therefore some, if not all of the Tapas 9 are involved with at least the cover up and that would explain the pact of silence
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Interesting. Even if a friend did the "taking" as an attemp to aid in covering up the accident, it would benefit the McCanns at this point to go along with the ruse. Therefore some, if not all of the Tapas 9 are involved with at least the cover up and that would explain the pact of silence
Texana
Overreaching
And why wouldn't she call the police from the apartment, instead of running back to the restaurant? or go to a neighbor?
Why doesn't anyone call the police for another 40 minutes when "They've taken her!" is the first words out of Kate's mouth?
Why doesn't anyone call the police for another 40 minutes when "They've taken her!" is the first words out of Kate's mouth?
MoonGoddess
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:blowkiss: Hi all,
Re the 'front door' (Brown Wooden) If you just went out and shut the door, it could be opened from the inside by pulling to one side a 'lever', if you turned the key twice (anti-clockwise that I recall) in the 'keyhole' (front) as you went out - you could not open it from the inside ... I hope this makes sense - I think it is referred to as 'dead-locking'.
The patio doors are 'sliding', you can only lock them from the inside, where the UPVC panels meet in the middle, there is a little black knob which you press inwards, this releases a small iron cylinder that fits into the back panel (no key involved) - this is the best likeness I could find:-
http://ts.smoothcorp.com/cornerhardware/151262.100x100.jpeg
(not an exact likeness but to give you an idea) to 'release' (open) it again there is another small black knob which you press inwards... (do hope this makes sense) by leaving them open just an inch or so would allow you to slide to one side in order to gain access.
I did speak to someone involved in the search, they did say the big green bins (I saw @12 dotted around in the immediate vacintity - including 3 at front of supermarket and three at back) - this is a good likeness of the type of bin:-
http://www.preston.gov.uk/Images/General/Envionment/cleansing/trade bin.jpg
I made a point of noticing that @6.30 they were full to overflowing (at supermarket) and where they were located (supermarket), it would be difficult to stuff something anywhere near the bottom without raising suspicion), there are bins in surrounding streets though and not so full, but I was told these bins were checked (quite how they would get to the bottom I dont know) also I believe they are collected @10 at night by refuse dept. I guess it is feasable that they may have been emptied before the full search was under way... but I would sincerely believe that as the PJ were suspicious from the start about the 'abduction' theory that surely they would have checked with their refuse dept...
Hope this all makes sense....
Diane
Re the 'front door' (Brown Wooden) If you just went out and shut the door, it could be opened from the inside by pulling to one side a 'lever', if you turned the key twice (anti-clockwise that I recall) in the 'keyhole' (front) as you went out - you could not open it from the inside ... I hope this makes sense - I think it is referred to as 'dead-locking'.
The patio doors are 'sliding', you can only lock them from the inside, where the UPVC panels meet in the middle, there is a little black knob which you press inwards, this releases a small iron cylinder that fits into the back panel (no key involved) - this is the best likeness I could find:-
http://ts.smoothcorp.com/cornerhardware/151262.100x100.jpeg
(not an exact likeness but to give you an idea) to 'release' (open) it again there is another small black knob which you press inwards... (do hope this makes sense) by leaving them open just an inch or so would allow you to slide to one side in order to gain access.
I did speak to someone involved in the search, they did say the big green bins (I saw @12 dotted around in the immediate vacintity - including 3 at front of supermarket and three at back) - this is a good likeness of the type of bin:-
http://www.preston.gov.uk/Images/General/Envionment/cleansing/trade bin.jpg
I made a point of noticing that @6.30 they were full to overflowing (at supermarket) and where they were located (supermarket), it would be difficult to stuff something anywhere near the bottom without raising suspicion), there are bins in surrounding streets though and not so full, but I was told these bins were checked (quite how they would get to the bottom I dont know) also I believe they are collected @10 at night by refuse dept. I guess it is feasable that they may have been emptied before the full search was under way... but I would sincerely believe that as the PJ were suspicious from the start about the 'abduction' theory that surely they would have checked with their refuse dept...
Hope this all makes sense....
Diane
Yea no kidding! As a mom if I had discovered my child gone,my screaming my childs name in pure panic mode while searching under the beds and closects ect would have had people in near by apartments or passerbys running in.Then I would have been on the phone to the police.
as a side note I know this is what I would have done because I have done it.My son who was 4 at the time(hes 13 now) was playing out side I turned my back for just a couple of minutes to deal with my 8 yearold daughter who was being very bratty to another child and when I turned back around he and the little boy he was playing were gone(don't know where his mother was).I screamed and went running into our apartment searching for them.Neighbors in the apartment complex came out and everyone was searching the area (pool area,underbushes,behind the apartments)while I was on the phone with the police.The police responded within 5 minutes.We had 2 entrances in the complex.One was a major highway.My biggest fear was he was abducted.As I was talking to the officer who had came in the etrance off the highway.Another police officer pulled in the second entrance with both boys and two little bikes..how and where they got those bikes from I have no idea
.When I saw my son I went running like a mad woman to pick my son up,the other cop whom I was talking to told me to stop.I didn't.I wanted my child in my arms and nobody was going to keep me from him,even a police officer with a gun.This all happened from beginning to end in just under 10 minutes.That other mother and I got so lucky that day.I still have not forgiven myself and the what ifs still run through my head.
So her actions that night don't ring true with me.Speaking from my own experience.
MADELEINE: 'WE CAN PROVE PARENTS DID IT'
Monday September 10,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz and Martin Evans in Rothley
The parents of Madeleine McCann flew back to Britain yesterday as Portuguese police said: We have enough evidence to convict you.
They made their confidence clear as Kate and Gerry McCann dramatically returned home with two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.
The couple left the Algarve just two days after they were named as official suspects in the disappearance of their elder daughter. Detectives now expect to receive further forensic evidence gathered from the McCanns ground-floor apartment at the Ocean Club complex today or tomorrow.
A source close to the Policia Judiciaria said they were expecting the results from the latest batch of tests to clinch their case against the couple.
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/18738
Monday September 10,2007
By Padraic Flanagan in Praia da Luz and Martin Evans in Rothley
The parents of Madeleine McCann flew back to Britain yesterday as Portuguese police said: We have enough evidence to convict you.
They made their confidence clear as Kate and Gerry McCann dramatically returned home with two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie.
The couple left the Algarve just two days after they were named as official suspects in the disappearance of their elder daughter. Detectives now expect to receive further forensic evidence gathered from the McCanns ground-floor apartment at the Ocean Club complex today or tomorrow.
A source close to the Policia Judiciaria said they were expecting the results from the latest batch of tests to clinch their case against the couple.
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/18738
JanetElaine
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That's correct, that's how it would work. Now to open this door from the outside, you would always need a key, 'dead-locked' or not. Europeans though would only call a dead-locked door 'locked'. A door that's just shut behind you would still be referred to as unlocked, even though you'd need a key to get in from the outside.
CaliKid, you asked about the sliding doors, as I know them they are all as MoonGoddess described them, no lock on the outside. I also know sliding doors though that can be closed all the way but just slid back open by whoever, from the outside, I don't think you'd need to necessarily leave them open a bit (was that what you were saying, MG?). But no locks, only from the inside.
Which bins were checked, do you know? I can't really tell if you meant all of them (supermarket and surrounding streets) or just the surrounding streest (or just the supermarket). I really really hope they got to all of them, especially the store dumpsters, before emptying time.... there should be a ban against picking up garbage in the general area of where a child (someone) is missing, or it should be put in a seperate area at the dump or something.
Barnaby
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A media article confirmed that they had left toys, other things & a twin buggy behind in Portugal yesterday so they had their own with them as one would expect. Most peculiar that they are seen wheeling two different ones. I think that 3 wheeled buggy should be examined!
Jdee
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April posted this article... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2414796.ece
I found this statement interesting and if true does change what Kate said when she ran back to the bar..
"She ran down the hill and into the restaurant, where Gerry recalls her shouting or screaming either “Madeleine has gone. Somebody has taken her” or “Madeleine has gone. Someone has taken her”. Other reports suggest she shouted, “They've taken her.”
The article also gives an interesting timeline to the events that night.
I found this statement interesting and if true does change what Kate said when she ran back to the bar..
"She ran down the hill and into the restaurant, where Gerry recalls her shouting or screaming either “Madeleine has gone. Somebody has taken her” or “Madeleine has gone. Someone has taken her”. Other reports suggest she shouted, “They've taken her.”
The article also gives an interesting timeline to the events that night.
Concern has also been raised that the PJ were apparently happy to allow the McCanns to continue using the hire car in which Madeleines blood was allegedly found despite British sources saying it should be treated as evidence.
Last night it emerged that the McCanns have chosen not to return the silver car to the hire firm. They are understood to be continuing to rent it so that they can have their own forensic tests carried out.(snip)
I remember thinking it was odd that they were able to continue to use the car. But what is not odd is that the McCanns will now not return the car.
KOOL LOOK
~~~Sin is the Cause of all Sorrow~~~For this Gal,
Having just returned froma five week vacation in florida, i can tell you i left with a whole lot more than I arrived with. Due to shopping, picking up items not packed, etc...
So to weigh in on the Mccanns leaving items behind, that's one hundred percent understandable. Especially considering many many strangers, family probably sent and donated toys, clothes, etc... as they were there for months.
Understandable. I almost needed an eighteen wheeler to get me home, te he, hubby realized how much shoppin I had done while he worked on our vacation. Teach him to take Beau and me on a working vacation, hah hah!
I bought him lots of goodies too, so don't go blasting me :blowkiss:
So to weigh in on the Mccanns leaving items behind, that's one hundred percent understandable. Especially considering many many strangers, family probably sent and donated toys, clothes, etc... as they were there for months.
Understandable. I almost needed an eighteen wheeler to get me home, te he, hubby realized how much shoppin I had done while he worked on our vacation. Teach him to take Beau and me on a working vacation, hah hah!
I bought him lots of goodies too, so don't go blasting me :blowkiss:
MoonGoddess
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That's correct, that's how it would work. Now to open this door from the outside, you would always need a key, 'dead-locked' or not. Europeans though would only call a dead-locked door 'locked'. A door that's just shut behind you would still be referred to as unlocked, even though you'd need a key to get in from the outside.
CaliKid, you asked about the sliding doors, as I know them they are all as MoonGoddess described them, no lock on the outside. I also know sliding doors though that can be closed all the way but just slid back open by whoever, from the outside, I don't think you'd need to necessarily leave them open a bit (was that what you were saying, MG?). But no locks, only from the inside.
Which bins were checked, do you know? I can't really tell if you meant all of them (supermarket and surrounding streets) or just the surrounding streest (or just the supermarket). I really really hope they got to all of them, especially the store dumpsters, before emptying time.... there should be a ban against picking up garbage in the general area of where a child (someone) is missing, or it should be put in a seperate area at the dump or something.
Hi:blowkiss:
Re patio doors - TBH I cant recall if there was a handle on the outside that would be used to slide them back once fully closed, I guess you could slide them back without a handle, but I was thinking along the lines that they had claimed (via a source close to) they left them open "incase of fire" - it would be hard for a child to have opened them from the inside if fully closed... know what I mean?
Re bins - I was told "we searched all the bins" - from that I accepted (just my interpretation) that all the bins in and around surrounding area were checked...
Diane
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2423304.ece?token=null&offset=12
From Times Online
September 10, 2007
Police push for charges against Madeleine McCann's mother as case goes to prosecutor
David Brown and Steve Bird, of The Times, in Praia da Luz
A police file of evidence which allegedly proves that Kate McCann killed her daughter is expected to be handed to a public prosecutor in Portugal today.
Detectives believe they have now collected enough evidence for Mrs McCann to be charged with the homicide of Madeleine by failing to prevent her death. The charge is equivalent to manslaughter in British law. She would also face a charge of concealing a Madeleine’s body.
Officers were furious when a plan for Mrs McCann to be charged on Thursday last week was halted after her lawyer met with the Portugal’s Attorney General, it was claimed today.
A new file of evidence includes lengthy interviews with both Mrs McCann and her husband, Gerry, after they were made official suspects last week. It also includes details of forensic evidence collected in the McCann’s apartment and hire car and the results of surveillance by Portuguese and British police.
function pictureGalleryPopup(pubUrl,articleId) {var newWin = window.open(pubUrl+'template/2.0-0/element/pictureGalleryPopup.jsp?id='+articleId+'&&offset=0&§ionName=UK','mywindow','menubar=0,resizable=0,width=615,height=655');}Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses, the public prosecutor based in Portimao, will have to decide what, if any, charges should be brought against Mr and Mrs McCann. The couple can remain as official suspects for up to eight months.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the Portuguese police inquiry, said: “At the moment the inquiry is being prepared to be handed to the prosecutor in charge of the case. He will analyse it and after this he will make his decision.”
Asked when the papers would be handed over, he said: “Probably during today.”
Portuguese police decided to pass the file on to the prosecutor despite not having all the results from forensic tests being carried out by the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.
Mr Sousa said: “The information is that we have received part of the forensic results, so we are waiting for the rest."
The McCanns' Portuguese lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, has said he has no idea how long it would take for the case to be concluded. It is understood the McCanns could have to wait months before learning whether they will be charged or cleared.
If charged, the couple could be remanded in “preventative custody” by a judge while they await trial.
The McCann’s had previously insisted they would return to Portugal if requested by police but their decision to consult a British expert in extradition law has led to speculation that they may fight an extradition order.
Michael Caplan, QC, has previously represented Chilean dictator General Pinochet in his battle to avoid extradition on charges of torture and human rights abuses.
However, the introduction of a European Arrest Warrant in 2004 will make it much harder for Mr and Mrs McCann to successfully challenge any extradition request.
Portuguese detectives appear to be working on the theory that Mrs McCann killed her daughter by accident and covered up the death by claiming she was abducted. Her husband’s alleged role is not clear, but sources said police believe he was an accessory to the killing and helped hide their daughter’s body.
Portuguese newspapers claimed today that Madelene was accidentally killed by an overdose of sedative, by drinking medication or after being slapped or pushed. Mrs McCann is the key suspect as British tourists claim she put Madeleine to bed while her husband played tennis or swam.
Portuguese police were yesterday reported to be preparing for a fresh series of searches in Praia da Luz. The sites included the villa where the McCanns had stayed and an area south of the Ocean Club resort where Madeleine disappeared 130 days ago,
Mr and Mrs McCann returned to their home in Rothley, Leicestershire, yesterday with their two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie.
Philomena McCann, Madeleine's aunt, said today it was "unbelievable" that Kate and Gerry McCann had been named as "arguidos", or formal suspects, in her disappearance.
"The way the Portuguese have turned this investigation round, and they are no longer looking for a live child, they are assuming on spurious evidence, that Madeleine is now dead, well, we don't agree with that in any shape or form," she told BBC Breakfast.
"We want the investigation changed round to look for Madeleine alive, as we reckon she is."
Ms McCann said the couple would be "absolutely" co-operating with the Portuguese police and were prepared to return to Portugal to undergo further questioning.
After touching down at East Midlands Airport just after noon yesterday, Mr McCann, his voice breaking, insisted they played no part in her disappearance.
He said: "Whilst it is heartbreaking to return to the UK without Madeleine, it does not mean we are giving up our search.
"As parents we cannot give up on our daughter until we know what has happened."
The couple do not know if or when police will call them back to Portugal, although they will obey even if they fear they could be arrested, a family friend said.
"They are not running away. It is a change of place but they are very happy to help the police," the friend said.
The family's decision to return to Britain was in large part based on their desire to maintain a sense of normality for their two youngest children.
Mr McCann said: "We want the twins, as much as is reasonably possible, to live an ordinary life in their home country, and we want to consider the events of the last few days which have been so deeply disturbing."
It is very unlikely they will bring the twins back to Portugal with them if police need them for further interviews, a friend said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Long article.Very interesting.Heres one part that caught my eye
From Times Online
September 10, 2007
Police push for charges against Madeleine McCann's mother as case goes to prosecutor
David Brown and Steve Bird, of The Times, in Praia da Luz
A police file of evidence which allegedly proves that Kate McCann killed her daughter is expected to be handed to a public prosecutor in Portugal today.
Detectives believe they have now collected enough evidence for Mrs McCann to be charged with the homicide of Madeleine by failing to prevent her death. The charge is equivalent to manslaughter in British law. She would also face a charge of concealing a Madeleine’s body.
Officers were furious when a plan for Mrs McCann to be charged on Thursday last week was halted after her lawyer met with the Portugal’s Attorney General, it was claimed today.
A new file of evidence includes lengthy interviews with both Mrs McCann and her husband, Gerry, after they were made official suspects last week. It also includes details of forensic evidence collected in the McCann’s apartment and hire car and the results of surveillance by Portuguese and British police.
function pictureGalleryPopup(pubUrl,articleId) {var newWin = window.open(pubUrl+'template/2.0-0/element/pictureGalleryPopup.jsp?id='+articleId+'&&offset=0&§ionName=UK','mywindow','menubar=0,resizable=0,width=615,height=655');}Jose Cunha de Magalhaes e Meneses, the public prosecutor based in Portimao, will have to decide what, if any, charges should be brought against Mr and Mrs McCann. The couple can remain as official suspects for up to eight months.
Chief Inspector Olegario Sousa, spokesman for the Portuguese police inquiry, said: “At the moment the inquiry is being prepared to be handed to the prosecutor in charge of the case. He will analyse it and after this he will make his decision.”
Asked when the papers would be handed over, he said: “Probably during today.”
Portuguese police decided to pass the file on to the prosecutor despite not having all the results from forensic tests being carried out by the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham.
Mr Sousa said: “The information is that we have received part of the forensic results, so we are waiting for the rest."
The McCanns' Portuguese lawyer, Carlos Pinto de Abreu, has said he has no idea how long it would take for the case to be concluded. It is understood the McCanns could have to wait months before learning whether they will be charged or cleared.
If charged, the couple could be remanded in “preventative custody” by a judge while they await trial.
The McCann’s had previously insisted they would return to Portugal if requested by police but their decision to consult a British expert in extradition law has led to speculation that they may fight an extradition order.
Michael Caplan, QC, has previously represented Chilean dictator General Pinochet in his battle to avoid extradition on charges of torture and human rights abuses.
However, the introduction of a European Arrest Warrant in 2004 will make it much harder for Mr and Mrs McCann to successfully challenge any extradition request.
Portuguese detectives appear to be working on the theory that Mrs McCann killed her daughter by accident and covered up the death by claiming she was abducted. Her husband’s alleged role is not clear, but sources said police believe he was an accessory to the killing and helped hide their daughter’s body.
Portuguese newspapers claimed today that Madelene was accidentally killed by an overdose of sedative, by drinking medication or after being slapped or pushed. Mrs McCann is the key suspect as British tourists claim she put Madeleine to bed while her husband played tennis or swam.
Portuguese police were yesterday reported to be preparing for a fresh series of searches in Praia da Luz. The sites included the villa where the McCanns had stayed and an area south of the Ocean Club resort where Madeleine disappeared 130 days ago,
Mr and Mrs McCann returned to their home in Rothley, Leicestershire, yesterday with their two-year-old twins, Sean and Amelie.
Philomena McCann, Madeleine's aunt, said today it was "unbelievable" that Kate and Gerry McCann had been named as "arguidos", or formal suspects, in her disappearance.
"The way the Portuguese have turned this investigation round, and they are no longer looking for a live child, they are assuming on spurious evidence, that Madeleine is now dead, well, we don't agree with that in any shape or form," she told BBC Breakfast.
"We want the investigation changed round to look for Madeleine alive, as we reckon she is."
Ms McCann said the couple would be "absolutely" co-operating with the Portuguese police and were prepared to return to Portugal to undergo further questioning.
After touching down at East Midlands Airport just after noon yesterday, Mr McCann, his voice breaking, insisted they played no part in her disappearance.
He said: "Whilst it is heartbreaking to return to the UK without Madeleine, it does not mean we are giving up our search.
"As parents we cannot give up on our daughter until we know what has happened."
The couple do not know if or when police will call them back to Portugal, although they will obey even if they fear they could be arrested, a family friend said.
"They are not running away. It is a change of place but they are very happy to help the police," the friend said.
The family's decision to return to Britain was in large part based on their desire to maintain a sense of normality for their two youngest children.
Mr McCann said: "We want the twins, as much as is reasonably possible, to live an ordinary life in their home country, and we want to consider the events of the last few days which have been so deeply disturbing."
It is very unlikely they will bring the twins back to Portugal with them if police need them for further interviews, a friend said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Long article.Very interesting.Heres one part that caught my eye
Texana
Overreaching
This is the first article that says the parents often "crisscrossed each other" in their paths to check on the children--however, at the most critical time, the last check Gerry made on the children, when he encountered Jeremy Wilkins, Jane Tanner was also away from the table checking on her children.
She did not see either of the two men and they did not see her.
The "crisscrossing" is most definitely an exaggeration at best or an outright distortion of truth.
JanetElaine
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Definitely know what you mean re. the sliding doors. Don't they have some kind of 'dent' in them that serves as a 'grip', both inside and out tho? That's what I remember anyway... But it doesn't make sense, if they claimed they left them open 'in case of fire', they would have had to leave them open quite a bit, for a child to at least be able to put their arm/shoulder in there to push the door open (as they wouldn't be strong enough IMO to just slide the doors open by only putting their hand(s) in the opening). Of course not a lot the McC's are saying makes sense so I don't know why that would surprise me. :doh:
Thanks for the info about the bins too.
Jdee
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I think it is The Times online and The Times has a good reputation in the U.S.
MoonGoddess
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http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1391412007
~snip~ And the McCanns strongly denied that they would ever use sedatives on any of their three children.
Mr McCann said: "Our daughter was snatched from her bed on 3 May. She is still missing. The police have said time and time again we are not suspects.
"These are the facts. Everything else is at best speculation and, in some cases, downright lies."
A spokesman for the McCann family added: "This statement is without truth or evidence.
"The McCanns feel the allegations are very serious and damaging to their professional and personal reputations." ~end snip~
My bolding. Never use sedatives? Calpol is "rumored" to be used as a sedative. My research show it is the same as Tylenol. Although on the Calpol thread it has been stated that you can buy Calpol with codiene in it over the counter. But don't even think you might get some neosporin
If, as is indicated, Gerry administered the Calpol by needle, would that make you think it was the kind with codiene? Tylenol comes in liquid form for little guys. What the heck were the needles about?:waitasec:
Salem
~snip~ And the McCanns strongly denied that they would ever use sedatives on any of their three children.
Mr McCann said: "Our daughter was snatched from her bed on 3 May. She is still missing. The police have said time and time again we are not suspects.
"These are the facts. Everything else is at best speculation and, in some cases, downright lies."
A spokesman for the McCann family added: "This statement is without truth or evidence.
"The McCanns feel the allegations are very serious and damaging to their professional and personal reputations." ~end snip~
My bolding. Never use sedatives? Calpol is "rumored" to be used as a sedative. My research show it is the same as Tylenol. Although on the Calpol thread it has been stated that you can buy Calpol with codiene in it over the counter. But don't even think you might get some neosporin
If, as is indicated, Gerry administered the Calpol by needle, would that make you think it was the kind with codiene? Tylenol comes in liquid form for little guys. What the heck were the needles about?:waitasec:
Salem
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Heroin? Maybe the syringes where really used by the parents, and the sedative/ and/or medication thing is all a lie. Think about it, the only parents I have ever heard of who leave their BABIES purposely alone (While they party) are those on drugs. You hear about it all the time...even respected "doctors"
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