General Discussion Thread #5

[Estelle]

Hello to everybody - I'm back again :seeya: But I'm afraid I'll unable to be present as often as before because of my job.

Regarding the forthcoming OP trial: I also don't believe he will take the stand because he and his defense team are aware that in cross-examination his lies would break his neck.

But because I'm a bad boy I hope he will! And furthermore I hope prosecutors will make a strong case.

Hi Pisto_lius, Welcome back as we will need your logical comments. Now I know that you are a male!

So he will get his lawyers to lie on his behalf as they are better at it!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Hello to everybody - I'm back again :seeya: But I'm afraid I'll unable to be present as often as before because of my job.

Regarding the forthcoming OP trial: I also don't believe he will take the stand because he and his defense team are aware that in cross-examination his lies would break his neck.

But because I'm a bad boy I hope he will! And furthermore I hope prosecutors will make a strong case.

:seeya: :seeya: :seeya: :seeya: :seeya: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pisto_lius]

Police 'ready' for Pistorius trial

Johannesburg - Police are ready for the trial of murder-accused paralympian athlete Oscar Pistorius, Gauteng deputy commissioner Major General Tebello Mosikili said on Wednesday.

"The case is going to court, [and] all necessary evidence that we needed to take the docket to court has been collected so far," she told reporters in Johannesburg.

"We have made good progress."

She said a task team, including herself, had been set up to focus on the case until its end.

"We are ready to go to court," Mosikili said.

Read more: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Police-ready-for-Pistorius-trial-20140205

Why is it necessary to emphasize they are ready for the trial?

People expected they are ready!

So keep your mouth closed until the trial begins and then - I hope - you are able to prove that your team and your case is strong enough to send
OP into prison for a long time. That's more important than only "to be ready for the trial".

 

[Pisto_lius]

So important/interesting is this trial that SA are providing 24 hour TV coverage!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...coverage-of-reeva-steenkamp-case-9096901.html

I'm afraid this TV station (a pay-television provider) will repeat again and again the "glorious life of (t)his South African hero", how many gold medals he won and what a nice guy he is. They will show his whole life - how "the poor little boy" defied his destiny and became an inspiring example for all handicaped of the world. And all of this only because of his strong will and hard work....

And of course they will not forget to mention how much he believes in God - reads the bible every day for hours and hours, never drinks alcohol or takes drugs.... :sick:

The judge hasn't yet ruled if television cameras will be allowed to record images of court proceedings or if the trial at North Gauteng High Court, Pretoria, can be carried live.

So it will be interesting how the judge will decide - whether the whole trial will be allowed to be filmed and broadcast live or whether reporting only during the court breaks.

As far as I know the judge can also decide how many and which TV agencies will get the permission. In general, these are only selected agencies.

And I'm sure - OP and his DT will do everything to prevent a live broadcasting

 

[Pisto_lius]

Some very interesting extracts of an older report regarding the settlement between OP and Reeva's family:


January 24, 2014
Oscar Pistorius settlement over Reeva Steenkamp killing may hurt his March trial
http://www.news.com.au/sport/oscar-...-his-march-trial/story-fnect155-1226809132510

Any settlement before trial would help Steenkamp's parents, Barry and June, who relied on their daughter - a model and reality TV star - for financial help.

Pistorius could seek nondisclosure clauses in any settlement, law professor and practising attorney Stephen Tuson said, as well as insist that the agreement is made "without prejudice" - meaning he does not admit any fault. However, any settlement might still be used for cross-examination of Pistorius by the prosecution if he testifies at his murder trial, Tuson said.

"It definitely does provide material for the prosecution, to just niggle, a niggling question or two," Tuson said. "You paid. Why if you are innocent?"

A conviction, either on a murder charge or on a lesser negligent killing charge, could leave an already financially stretched Pistorius open to a large civil claim.

Tuson, who is not part of the case but has been following it, said a court was "entitled to draw inferences" if Pistorius declined to answer questions - as is his right as a defendant - on why he paid Steenkamp's family compensation.

"Personally, I would defer ... any admissions or any settlement because I don't want any inferences to be drawn," Tuson said.

Let's hope Mr Tuson is right and this settlement will be a (further) own goal of OP's DT lease:

 

[Interested Bystander]

I'm afraid this TV station (a pay-television provider) will repeat again and again the "glorious life of (t)his South African hero", how many gold medals he won and what a nice guy he is. They will show his whole life - how "the poor little boy" defied his destiny and became an inspiring example for all handicaped of the world. And all of this only because of his strong will and hard work....

And of course they will not forget to mention how much he believes in God - reads the bible every day for hours and hours, never drinks alcohol or takes drugs.... :sick:

I do hope not. It is listed as an investigative channel. Not that I shall be able to see it in the UK to see what they have to say!

 

[Estelle]

So important/interesting is this trial that SA are providing 24 hour TV coverage!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...coverage-of-reeva-steenkamp-case-9096901.html

I thought I would add this here so that one of the readers here may be able to access it.

MultiChoice, the country's top cable provider, which is also available in other African countries, promised "round-the-clock" coverage of one of the stories of the year.

The TV channel, branded "The Oscar Pistorius Trial: A Carte Blanche Channel," will be put together by the producers of a weekly investigative journalism show in South Africa called "Carte Blanche," which also airs on MultiChoice's DSTV.

 

[Estelle]

I thought I would add this here so that one of the readers here may be able to access it.

MultiChoice, the country's top cable provider, which is also available in other African countries, promised "round-the-clock" coverage of one of the stories of the year.

The TV channel, branded "The Oscar Pistorius Trial: A Carte Blanche Channel," will be put together by the producers of a weekly investigative journalism show in South Africa called "Carte Blanche," which also airs on MultiChoice's DSTV.

Having read other posts on this topic since I posted this, I did not assume that the coverage would necessarily be a live coverage in the court itself. I thought they would have experts just commenting on the proceedings because at this stage the Judge has not given her permission for live coverage.

 

[Estelle]

Some very interesting extracts of an older report regarding the settlement between OP and Reeva's family:

January 24, 2014
Oscar Pistorius settlement over Reeva Steenkamp killing may hurt his March trial
http://www.news.com.au/sport/oscar-...-his-march-trial/story-fnect155-1226809132510

Let's hope Mr Tuson is right and this settlement will be a (further) own goal of OP's DT lease:

It seems to me to be a Catch 22 situation for both sides.

Settle now, offer less and be perceived as being guilty?

Reeva's parents are happy as they would get money to go on with in case this case takes years.

Settle after his possible conviction and the civil suit and court case legal costs could make OP bankrupt?

Reeva's parents would have to wait possibly a long time but would receive a lot more.

What I do not understand is how the Steenkamps could mount a civil case against OP if he is found guilty and sent to jail. Would his lawyers just represent him then and settle out of court? In other words, it would not be too late once OP is in jail.

How long do you think this trial could go on for?

Does anyone think it will all be over in March 2014?

 

[Pisto_lius]

'We have a strong case against Oscar'

Mothiba says the special team investigating the case is ready for trial and has done what he’s called a ‘very good job’.

“In terms of all the loose strings, we’ve tied them up and our witnesses are ready. All our exhibits are ready and we are very much convinced that we have a strong case against Oscar Pistorius.”

The trial is due to begin on 3 March and there appear to be no indications of any delays.

Prosecutors have set out to convict Pistorius of premeditated murder.

http://ewn.co.za/2014/02/06/Oscar-Pistorius-Cops-confident-of-a-conviction

Why is this BIB mentioned? Premonitions or inside knowledge?

 

[Pisto_lius]

Criminal and civil cases are two very different types of cases.

Crime cases

- are prosecuted by the state

- will have jail time as a potential punishment, but may involve both jail time and monetary punishments in the form of fines

- crimes must generally be proved "beyond a reasonable doubt"

- a defendant in a criminal case is entitled to an attorney, and if he or she can't afford one, the state must provide an attorney

- in general, because criminal cases have greater consequences - the possibility of jail and even death - criminal cases have many more protections in place and are harder to prove.


Civil cases

- are disputes between individuals regarding the legal duties and responsibilities they owe one another

- generally only result in monetary damages or orders to do or not do something

- civil cases are proved by lower standards of proof such as "the preponderance of the evidence" (which essentially means that it was more likely than not that something occurred in a certain way)

- a defendant in a civil case is not given an attorney and must pay for one, or else defend him or herself

But the same conduct can result in both criminal and civil liability.

Remenber OJ Simpson: The same conduct led to a murder trial (criminal) and a wrongful death trial (civil). In part because of the different standards of proof, there was not enough evidence (for a jury) to decide that OJ Simpson was guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" in the criminal murder case. In the civil trial, however, (the jury) found enough evidence to conclude that OJ Simpson wrongfully caused his wife's death by a "preponderance of the evidence".

 

[Pisto_lius]

I'm rather sure OP will plead "not guilty" - neither negligent killing and certainly not premeditated murder.

Settle now, offer less and be perceived as being guilty?

There are probably several reasons for OP to offer a settlement:

a) he prevents thereby a second trial (civil) which would further damage his reputation

b) he prevents that a civil court sentenced him to pay a higher compensation of damages than he offered in the settlement

c) he also prevents additional costs (court fees, attorney fees, costs of experts etc.)

The settlement with Reeva's parents will not really have any effects on the judgement but as Tuson said - it does provide material for the prosecution to ask uncomfortable question and the judge also could draw inferences on why he paid Steenkamp's family compensation.

Reeva's parents are happy as they would get money to go on with in case this case takes years.

No matter how long this (criminal) trial lasts - Reeva's parents will not receive any money as a result of this trial. To receive any possible damage compensations it's necessary for them to sue OP in a civil trial or - as they did now - to accept a proposed settlement.

Reeva's parents would have to wait possibly a long time but would receive a lot more.

Possible, but don't forget the negative impacts of a civil suit:

- a second trial means for them to go a second time through all of the horrible details of her daughter's death - not knowing how long it will takes and what the outcome will be

- they have to pay for their attorneys before they actually get cash

- they haven't a lot of money because Reeva provided them with financial support. So, they need money now to pay their bills and maintain their livelihoods - not in several years' time

The amount of the settlement is perhaps not the best solution of their financial problems but it's the fastest and will save them a lot of stress and other problems.

Settle after his possible conviction and the civil suit and court case legal costs could make OP bankrupt?

Why not? For his criminal trial court fees, attorney fees, costs of experts etc. will be incurred - and they should not be negligible the more time the trial takes. Nearly the same costs will incurred for a civil suit.

And OP's income has completely fallen away. No sponsors, no advertising contracts, no prize money....

What I do not understand is how the Steenkamps could mount a civil case against OP if he is found guilty and sent to jail.

Would his lawyers just represent him then and settle out of court?

In other words, it would not be too late once OP is in jail.

I'm not certain I exactly understand what do you mean :blushing: So sorry, if my answer should be wrong

If OP is found guilty in the upcoming (criminal) trial and sent to jail this will be the punishment of the state's indictment.

For a civil trial it doesn't matter whether a defendant was found guilty or not in a criminal trial.

If OP is found guilty in a civil trial the punishment only will be to pay monetary compensation to Reeva's parents. And this he will have to pay whether he is sent to jail or not.

Of course Reeva's parents could await the outcome of the criminal trial and mount a civil case against OP later. And it's very probable, that his lawyers then also would offer them a settlement out of court.

But for the reasons I mentioned before, it's probably beneficial to both parties to reach a settlement as soon as possible.

How long do you think this trial could go on for?

Does anyone think it will all be over in March 2014?

I don't believe this trial will take only three weeks and will be concluded in March 2014. Even it would be highly unlikely that prosecutors put all their 107 potential witnesses on the stand, they will come up with a lot of experts and the same is to be expected by the DT.

Furthermore, the indictment includes four charges that have to be negotiated.

All in all, I guess it will take a minimum of two months or maybe even longer. And I wouldn't be suprised if it comes to delays caused by requests made by the DT. This is not unusual to throw the other party off course.

 

[kittychi]

It seems to me to be a Catch 22 situation for both sides.

Settle now, offer less and be perceived as being guilty?

Reeva's parents are happy as they would get money to go on with in case this case takes years.

Settle after his possible conviction and the civil suit and court case legal costs could make OP bankrupt?

Reeva's parents would have to wait possibly a long time but would receive a lot more.

What I do not understand is how the Steenkamps could mount a civil case against OP if he is found guilty and sent to jail. Would his lawyers just represent him then and settle out of court? In other words, it would not be too late once OP is in jail.

How long do you think this trial could go on for?

Does anyone think it will all be over in March 2014?

IIRC, the trial has an end date already set. I have no idea where I read this among the pieces I have read, but I remember being surprised that it was limited to 12 days or 2 wks or something like that.

ETA: This article says its March 3-20

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Gauteng-top-cop-confident-of-Pistorius-conviction-20140206

 

[Lemon Tree]

<snipped for brevity> ... I don't believe this trial will take only three weeks and will be concluded in March 2014. Even it would be highly unlikely that prosecutors put all their 107 potential witnesses on the stand, they will come up with a lot of experts and the same is to be expected by the DT.

Furthermore, the indictment includes four charges that have to be negotiated.

All in all, I guess it will take a minimum of two months or maybe even longer. And I wouldn't be suprised if it comes to delays caused by requests made by the DT. This is not unusual to throw the other party off course.

In response to Estelle's original question about the length of the trial, I agree with Pisto_lius that it is likely to take longer than two months. I imagine that the DT will file many 'administrative justice' motions that could delay the start of evidence being led and once evidence starts to be let by the PT, I expect there to be many objections/ motions to disallow as much evidence as possible (where it hurts OP). Lastly, I don't think the DT is in any hurry to get this over with since the more time they have, the more things may go in their favour given the past performance of SAPS.

 

[Interested Bystander]

http://world.time.com/2014/02/07/oscar-pistorius-dream-team-murder-trial/#ixzz2suz6maPQ


"For his part, Pistorius is &#8220;extremely overwhelmed&#8221; and is spending time with his family in anticipation of the trial, says the Pistorius family spokesperson Anneliese Burgess in an email. His feelings are understandable, given the hardball attitude of his forensic experts. As Dixon put it: &#8220;a forensic scientist is not on anybody&#8217;s side."


Given the statement by Anneliese Burgess about OP's demeanour, does anyone think it strange that this information has been forthcoming from her, given the secretiveness displayed before now? Does anyone think this could be disinformation? I am becoming exceptionally sceptical about anything I read purporting to come from the OP camp.

 

[kittychi]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-phone-data-not-yet-decoded-20140211

More on the phone debacle.

I don't understand how they can say they are ready for the trial. This is ridiculous...its been a year now. Red tape my foot; more like green money, I bet. (I didn't know SA had an FBI!)

It is maddening; seems like Defense would be in some trouble for not handing over evidence. Apparently not.

:tantrum:

 

[Estelle]

I don't understand how they can say they are ready for the trial. This is ridiculous...its been a year now. Red tape my foot; more like green money, I bet. (I didn't know SA had an FBI!)

It is maddening; seems like Defense would be in some trouble for not handing over evidence. Apparently not.

:tantrum:

One would think that they would be forced to hand it over. Cant the Judge demand it then?

So how ready are they really?

 

[Estelle]

You will be interested to know that Pistorius & Taylor-Memmory reached an out of court settlement last December after a four-year legal battle

While she won’t give details about the deal, she says the athlete agreed to settle her legal fees, but she didn’t receive an apology. She says she agreed to the outcome because she wanted to put the incident behind her.

Taylor-Memmory persisted with her claim against Pistorius for four years, but the athlete dropped his R2.2 million claim against her. He alleged he lost public appearance fees and he felt humiliated about being arrested at the time.
Pistorius also accused her of being drunk and aggressive during the incident.
Taylor-Memmory denied this. Pistorius’s attorney Brian Webber confirmed the deal, but says it was settled at his instigation for expediency purposes.


http://ewn.co.za/2014/02/12/Pistorius-Taylor-Memmory-reach-settlement

 

[Estelle]

I don't understand how they can say they are ready for the trial. This is ridiculous...its been a year now. Red tape my foot; more like green money, I bet. (I didn't know SA had an FBI!)

It is maddening; seems like Defense would be in some trouble for not handing over evidence. Apparently not.

:tantrum:

This article is confusing.

FBI "red tape" is preventing detectives from accessing the mobile phone formerly belonging to South African sprinter Oscar Pistorius. South African investigators reportedly have been trying to persuade the FBI to back a request for Apple to unlock Pistorius' iPhone, allowing its contents to be scrutinized ahead of the murder trial, Pistorius says he forgot his Apple ID code, which pretty well prevents anyone from accessing messages contained on his iPhone. Apple apparently will help authorities circumvent the password protection only if the FBI weighs in.

South African police spokesperson declined to comment on the FBI angle, but said that authorities have "everything we need for the trial."

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/79956.html

 

[Estelle]

http://world.time.com/2014/02/07/oscar-pistorius-dream-team-murder-trial/#ixzz2suz6maPQ


"For his part, Pistorius is “extremely overwhelmed” and is spending time with his family in anticipation of the trial, says the Pistorius family spokesperson Anneliese Burgess in an email. His feelings are understandable, given the hardball attitude of his forensic experts. As Dixon put it: “a forensic scientist is not on anybody’s side."


Given the statement by Anneliese Burgess about OP's demeanour, does anyone think it strange that this information has been forthcoming from her, given the secretiveness displayed before now? Does anyone think this could be disinformation? I am becoming exceptionally sceptical about anything I read purporting to come from the OP camp.

When you read through the lines, the message that Burgess is telling us is that OP is resigned to the fact that even though he has employed the world's best forensics experts, forensics don't lie as it is scientific evidence so he is spending time with his family as he may not see much of them for many years!