How did the McCanns dispose of the body - how did they do it ?

[gord]

That's exactly why I mentioned the April Jones case though. Like in Portugal there was a concerted initial effort en masse yet no sign of a missing (or even murdered) child in those first few hours when they had the best chance of recovery. Despite a quick response, massive police presence, SAR dogs and teams, community searchers, etc.

To my mind it neither condemns nor exonerates the McCanns though.

I don't believe one must 'think hard' to hide a body personally. I doubt Casey Anthony put much thought in disposing Caylee just down the block from her home. I believe it was a convenient spot she knew not many people traversed and most importantly she got lucky. When the dumpsite was initially searched it was under water due to recent tropical storms. Caylee was left lying undiscovered for several more months with untold evidence destroyed during that time. Casey Anthony was acquitted much to the dismay and chagrin of many who'd spent years following Caylee's story.

It is always interesting to compare cases - I do n ot know enough about Caylee to comment

But again I stress - April went missing at 7.30 in the evening after been seen getting into a vehicle - Bridger was not aressted until the next day - so he could have travelled hundreds of miles.

The Mcanns had no vehicle and a much smaller timline to dispose on foot. Unless you go with a complete pre planned murder then I doubt the spent their days scouring for a good place to dispose of a body.

 

[BritsKate]

I agree it could take minutes - Gerry also has an alibi of playing tennis until about 7 - - tghere has never been any sightings of any of the mcanns leaving the falt with a bundle - on foot towards where ?

Anything is possible as we found in the abduction scenario but just cant see it - cant see how they then went through the whole charade of being freshly dressed - chatting to people , having drinks a meal - wjilst they had just either killed their daughter - put her in a bag and chucked the body in a dumpster or a stream -

They'd hardly be the first parents to do just that though and maybe that's why I can't totally believe in their innocence just on that alone. Susan Smith stood in front of a camera wailing for her kidnapped little boys to be brought back to her. Police, her estranged husband, her family and her friends all initially believed her. Nearly two weeks later she confessed to having driven them, still alive and in their car seats, into a lake.

I believe when most people commit murder self-survival instincts take over. It becomes all about keeping yourself out of prison.

There are families and spouses of murderers that had not a clue their loved ones were capable of such a crime as their demeanor, personality, and actions immediately after just never suggested it. That's by people who presumably would have known them a lot better than friends. If someone who commits murder is afflicted with personality disorder they likely wouldn't respond or react as most sentient, non-disordered people would anyway. (Presuming, of course, only one parent's involvement.)

 

[BritsKate]

It is always interesting to compare cases - I do n ot know enough about Caylee to comment

But again I stress - April went missing at 7.30 in the evening after been seen getting into a vehicle - Bridger was not aressted until the next day - so he could have travelled hundreds of miles.

The Mcanns had no vehicle and a much smaller timline to dispose on foot. Unless you go with a complete pre planned murder then I doubt the spent their days scouring for a good place to dispose of a body.

Indeed you're right. Time will tell on April Jones - hopefully. There is great concern she will not be found. Bridger apparently had problems with said vehicle though its unclear at this point when it began. He was arrested on foot with his vehicle in a garage for repair. (IIRC)

If the McCanns are involved I don't think it was premeditated. I don't believe it's a vast conspiracy by several governments, secret societies or even 9 people all lying to investigators to cover one another.

The two theories I've always had are either a) a parent snapped and either one or both parents concealed the crime (and also got pretty damned lucky) or b) Maddie was killed by someone known to both her and the McCanns. Kate and Gerry have unknowingly assisted in concealing the identity of this individual. (More that they don't believe he/she could be capable scenario.)

The last scenario of course is a stranger homicide. That doesn't fit for me based on the evidence available, the coincidences that would have to occur, the known patterns of criminology and perpetrator patterns, etc. (That being said though there are anomalies to every known statistic like in the case of Riley Fox.)

All just MOO. It kills me (no pun intended) when parents do murder their children. It defies the most sacred of bonds so I really do hope they one day find the person responsible and it isn't either of them.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It is always interesting to compare cases - I do n ot know enough about Caylee to comment

But again I stress - April went missing at 7.30 in the evening after been seen getting into a vehicle - Bridger was not aressted until the next day - so he could have travelled hundreds of miles.

The Mcanns had no vehicle and a much smaller timline to dispose on foot. Unless you go with a complete pre planned murder then I doubt the spent their days scouring for a good place to dispose of a body.

Ok so if not the McCanns - who did take her?

And where did they take her?

And how did they stroll casually down the street in PDL in full view of her father, without being noticed by him?

After all, the only reason he was in the street at all is the "check" he had just done...yet he claims not to have seen his daughter being abducted before his eyes!

Extraordinary.

 

[gord]

Ok so if not the McCanns - who did take her?

And where did they take her?

And how did they stroll casually down the street in PDL in full view of her father, without being noticed by him?

After all, the only reason he was in the street at all is the "check" he had just done...yet he claims not to have seen his daughter being abducted before his eyes!

Extraordinary.

I have no idea who took her - we have gone through in detail the posibilities of stranger abduction - it explains why there is no trace of the body in the vicinty - and not one of the 24+ dogs managed to pick up any scent

I can also point out as well that if gerry or kate or one of the Tapas had left the flat with the body in either a bag or being carried - where on earth did they go / and no-one saw them - no ID no witness to any vague location

again no one has ever expalined in a logicakl way how the " death Scent " could appear in the boot of a hire car that was hired weeks after Maddy dissapeared -

You quite rightly say extrordinary - what would be extrordinary woudl be the Mccanns going to the place they hid a body - the place the 100 of PJ and sniffer dogs had failed to find - as the key suspects - and then put her in the boot and hide again or dispose -

 

[DeeMarieGK]

It happens. Children are so small - evidence can disintegrate so quickly -

This made me think of one child.
Abby Blagg.

 

[fabgod]

The church would have been a perfect place to hide a body, the dogs apparently didnt search that area, the McCanns "asked for directions" to the church on the evening strangely, they were given the keys by Father Pacheco who subsequently says they ruined his life and will not talk about the family.
The church was only approximately 400 yards from the apartment as well.

Incidentally, if the "24+ Dogs" failed to find Madeleine, why did they also fail to pick up any scent of her, if she had been in the resort as normal during that day?

Wasnt there subsequently a problem in sourcing items that were Madeleines? so what was used during the early searches that gave the dogs a scent?

 

[SapphireSteel]

The church would have been a perfect place to hide a body, the dogs apparently didnt search that area, the McCanns "asked for directions" to the church on the evening strangely, they were given the keys by Father Pacheco who subsequently says they ruined his life and will not talk about the family.
The church was only approximately 400 yards from the apartment as well.

Incidentally, if the "24+ Dogs" failed to find Madeleine, why did they also fail to pick up any scent of her, if she had been in the resort as normal during that day?

Wasnt there subsequently a problem in sourcing items that were Madeleines? so what was used during the early searches that gave the dogs a scent?

That is correct, they gave LE a pillowslip allegedly used by Madeleine, but the hairs on the pillow slip did not match her hair in length.

Further, the beach was fairly inaccessible during high tide. She could well have been hidden on the beach, which then became cut off when the tide came in, overnight. The searchers simply could not reach most of it, and at that stage remember, they were still working on "abduction" so did not focus on finding a body anyway.

It wasn't until later when the British Police became involved that suspicions Madeleine had died and a cover up was involved became concrete, then Eddie and Keela were brought in and pretty much confirmed it.

 

[Clutchbag]

u can hide a three yr old in many places or get someone to take care of it, it sickens me to think these normal looking parents did that, but whats to say they didnt, if they lied about x y z which they have they could have lied about this too

 

[SapphireSteel]

Well they've lied about pretty much everything else.

 

[Clutchbag]

Well they've lied about pretty much everything else.

i have never ever believed them and its true theyhave been caught out by lies lots of times, <modsnip> bashingmr amaral and the dogs as thebasis oF the vacuous argument whikst ignoring all the discrepancies and lies of the mccanns LOL.........

 

[Chewy]

Well first of all if you killed your child you probably would be able to carry her on your hip and walk around like she was sleeping. But true, on holiday they would have suitcases at hand in which to carry the body and probably noone would ever think twice seeing a man with a suitcase at a resort.

My personal theory of MM is that her parents drugged her to get her to sleep. People have shouted at me over this before saying its a crazy idea but I think they killed her by accident.

What does point to them not killing her though is that they popped back and forth during the dinner and consumed wine etc. That certainly looks irresponsible. If they wanted to leave a window of opportunity for an abduction like scenario I would think they would have not go back so much.

So I think what happened really is that the abductor used something to "knock out" MM but the parents had already given her something and the overdose killed her.

I think that's why the parents seem guilty. Deep inside it seems to me that they know she is dead.

 

[Tink]

Well first of all if you killed your child you probably would be able to carry her on your hip and walk around like she was sleeping. But true, on holiday they would have suitcases at hand in which to carry the body and probably noone would ever think twice seeing a man with a suitcase at a resort.

My personal theory of MM is that her parents drugged her to get her to sleep. People have shouted at me over this before saying its a crazy idea but I think they killed her by accident.

What does point to them not killing her though is that they popped back and forth during the dinner and consumed wine etc. That certainly looks irresponsible. If they wanted to leave a window of opportunity for an abduction like scenario I would think they would have not go back so much.

So I think what happened really is that the abductor used something to "knock out" MM but the parents had already given her something and the overdose killed her.

I think that's why the parents seem guilty. Deep inside it seems to me that they know she is dead.

I'm just back from a holiday at a resort with my family (in Florida). There were people walking around every evening with small children sleeping on their shoulders, or being pushed (asleep) in strollers, and people with suitcases or large duffle bags. I paid no attention to any of them, and if later that night someone had said "did you see anyone carrying a small child or a suitcase" I would have to say "I don't know, probably." I certainly couldn't have described any of the parents or children. Why would anyone pay attention to something so ordinary? I think it would be very easy to get away with.

If the group had this planned baby-listening routine, I am sure they'd feel obligated to stick with it. They couldn't really say "tonight we're not going to check on the kids" because that would be highly suspicious when she later turned up missing.

As to their behaviour - I think of Paul Bernardo and Karla - they brutally raped and killed a teenage girl, left her body in their home and joined their family for Easter dinner. Apparently behaved perfectly normally and partied with everyone. Went back later and disposed of the body. People who are capable of killing are remarkably good at acting normally, it seems.

Earlier today I watched the video of Kate and Gerry being interviewed by Piers Morgan. Kate is pretty much silent. Piers asks Gerry about leaving the children alone. Gerry repeats his comment about it being like leaving kids asleep in their bedroom while you're in the back garden (assuming your back garden is down a flight of stairs, around a corner, through a gate and on the other side of a large swimming pool where you can't even see the kids' bedroom).

Piers says something like: "Well, not really. Your home would presumably be locked up and secure. This was an unlocked flat with all kinds of strangers walking past and able to get in." Gerry says something about the kids' routine (which frankly makes no sense at all - so you need to leave them in an unsafe environment to keep them to a routine? Really?) and then says that this distracts from the search for Madeleine. He's clearly completely unwilling to accept any responsibility at all. I mean, even if she really was abducted by a stranger, surely a parent would feel some guilt and be devastated by the very inappropriate decision to leave the children alone - knowing that if they had not left the children alone, she wouldn't have been abducted. But he continues to insist that they did the right thing.

Tink

 

[Chewy]

This is why I know they drugged her. Twins were too small to get out on their own but there's no way in the world that someone would leave a child her age alone. She could have walked out of the flat looking for her parents.

When they got back and the mother immediately knew she was abducted and didn't wander off, it seems to me that she knew that Madeline couldn't have woken up because they had knocked her out.

 

[Salem]

Don't start stirring the chit in here, or the thread will close. Behave yourselves.

Salem

 

[gord]

That is correct, they gave LE a pillowslip allegedly used by Madeleine, but the hairs on the pillow slip did not match her hair in length.

Further, the beach was fairly inaccessible during high tide. She could well have been hidden on the beach, which then became cut off when the tide came in, overnight. The searchers simply could not reach most of it, and at that stage remember, they were still working on "abduction" so did not focus on finding a body anyway.

It wasn't until later when the British Police became involved that suspicions Madeleine had died and a cover up was involved became concrete, then Eddie and Keela were brought in and pretty much confirmed it.

so the body was hidden on a beach over night that was cut off - but when was it moved ? did it stay on the beach for 4 weeks ?

The argument that they werent looking for a body anyway doesnt hold water . OF COURSE they were - that is exactly what rhey were doing - they werent searching for wild flowers . Amaral has already stated that he suspected them from the get go - so he was searching alright

This argument that PJ dogs rubbish but british cadaver dogs make no mistakes - I just dont buy it. Nor do i buy the argument that the evil Mccanns fooled the whole of the PJ and dogs by handing over a pillow case that was not hers. I knwo we diont give the PJ much credence for doing their job but even they would take know how to serach a crime scene and do a detailed search-

Sure teh body could have been hidden in the church - but again youi dont just hide bodies under tables . Are we realy believing that the PJ ignored the whole area. including the church grounds

and also noone has yet to expalin how on earth the managed to move the body from amazing hiding place to hire car -

The only reason they police , the dogs , everyone didnt find the body was that it was miles away by then

 

[Tink]

I'm doubtful about Madeleine's body being in the rental car. I think there are other possibilities: perhaps transfer (if the parents carried her or put her in suitcase and later their clothes or the case were put in the trunk and there was enough transfer of fluids or scent to make the dogs alert), perhaps it was another source entirely and nothing to do with Madeleine. How to people who believe she was abducted explain the dog's alerting to the rental car?

If we leave that part out, then I think it is pretty simple to get the body to the ocean. More than likely it would just disappear (as seems to have happened), but even if it was eventually washed ashore, there would be no way to show how she died and it could all be blamed on an abductor.

Tink

 

[SapphireSteel]

so the body was hidden on a beach over night that was cut off - but when was it moved ? did it stay on the beach for 4 weeks ?

The argument that they werent looking for a body anyway doesnt hold water . OF COURSE they were - that is exactly what rhey were doing - they werent searching for wild flowers . Amaral has already stated that he suspected them from the get go - so he was searching alright

This argument that PJ dogs rubbish but british cadaver dogs make no mistakes - I just dont buy it. Nor do i buy the argument that the evil Mccanns fooled the whole of the PJ and dogs by handing over a pillow case that was not hers. I knwo we diont give the PJ much credence for doing their job but even they would take know how to serach a crime scene and do a detailed search-

Sure teh body could have been hidden in the church - but again youi dont just hide bodies under tables . Are we realy believing that the PJ ignored the whole area. including the church grounds

and also noone has yet to expalin how on earth the managed to move the body from amazing hiding place to hire car -

The only reason they police , the dogs , everyone didnt find the body was that it was miles away by then

Sorry - I did not say this?

 

[Tabs1]

RE SEARCH DOGS ETC

A stark reminder of how both police and their dogs can get it wrong is the very recent case here in the UK of TIA SHARP. Last person to see her alive was her grandmother's boyfriend. Police with dogs searched the house FOUR times - yet somehow failed to find Tia's body which was in the loft.

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In order for Gerry and Kate to have killed their daughter (either deliberately or by accident) and then gone out to dinner, they both would have to be either sociopaths OR the most amazing actors. And they were with friends, people who knew them well, and who would surely have noticed if their behaviour was 'odd' in any respect.

So I simply don't buy that theory.

Do I think the McCanns were INSANE for leaving those kids alone? YES.

Do I think they possibly slipped them some Calpol or something to 'help' them sleep? YES, definitely possible in my view.

But I just don't think they could have somehow killed their daughter, hidden her body, and then carried on as normal.

 

[BritsKate]

If everyone who committed a murder acted as though they'd done so serial killers wouldn't thrive for decades and every murderer would presumably be convicted.

UK police most certainly screwed up in the Tia Sharp case, no doubt about it. Ironic then that it's the same police department claiming a stranger abduction in Maddie's case. One must wonder how many mistakes the Met makes...