IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[Public_Hysteria]

Chuz, Yes, agree..did she fall again in the construction debris and get picked up by a motorist? I close my eyes and imagine..what a petite young vulnerable pretty....blonde girl must have looked like.....long hair flipped messed up from CR over the shoulder sling fling...barefoot! NOTHING in hands..that is no phone. .no purse.. Nothing..nothing at all. AND with a bruised and I surmise..blood..gravel..debris maybe on her.. My thoughts go to a abused..or battered person getting out of Dodge at 4am.. Any motorist that saw this..male or female. ..would at least slow down and get a good look. My opinion.

I definitely agree with the bolded part. Any motorists (or even pedestrians) in the area would have noticed a disheveled and dirty (possibly bloody) petite blonde staggering down the street, with no shoes or possessions. I wouldn't think this would be a common occurrence, even if it is a bit of a 'party town'. IF she left on foot that night, someone would have seen her. There would have been people out and about at that time for sure (end of the night stragglers heading home after partying most of the night, people moving to another location to 'keep the party going'), so I'm surprised there aren't a bunch of witnesses who saw her wandering around.

(I'm a quiet follower of this thread, Lauren's case really drew me in when I first joined here, but I don't often have much more to add on what you are all saying... You're all doing such a fantastic job. :seeya: )

 

[Karmady]

I don't think so. See number 20. of the complaint. Sounds like there were witnesses who saw CR purchasing and providing her with multiple, additional drinks.

Although I don't know what is meant by "Upon information and belief..." in the complaint. Anyone?

Upon information and belief is the legal equivalent of "we don't know but we've heard." jmo

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=954

 

[Jupiter812]

Monkey222 and PublicHysteria, it was a Thursday night and summer session and very, very late so things were rather low key is the way I imagine it. I recall a young woman who lives near 5N was walking home by herself at around the same time Lauren supposedly left JR's and she said it was a quiet night. She was interviewed and quoted in the newspaper. She's a professional stylist locally, IIRC. She did not see Lauren. It would be entirely possible that Lauren could be out on the street for several minutes undetected. The area in question is not brightly lit either. Lots of trees, big old houses (on College), and foliage.

So just who WOULD be out at 4:30 a.m. cruising the streets of Bloomington on a summer's eve? A creeper, a doper, a Red Bull drinker.

 

[akh]

I don't think so. See number 20. of the complaint. Sounds like there were witnesses who saw CR purchasing and providing her with multiple, additional drinks.

Although I don't know what is meant by "Upon information and belief..." in the complaint. Anyone?

It basically means a theory with some evidence but pieces missing.

If they were to say that about the 4:15AM phone and be challenging that JR made the call instead of LS then the 'information' could be reports of how intoxicated she was, incoherent, or whatever else of that nature they might have in the file while the 'belief' part could be that they'd then present JR made the calls (which that calls were made is not in doubt) because their belief would be the evidence shows she wasn't capable.

It's easier creating an 'upon information and belief' scenario about that than the drinks for explanation purposes... At least off the top of my head. I suppose if they had bar video of CR buying 2 drinks every time he came to the bar then that would be 'information' and their 'belief' would be they believe one of the drinks each time was always for LS (even if there's no video of her drinking them).

 

[monkey222]

Yes Jupiter, agreed. A creeper driving back..home..after last call at the strip joints. .whereever..they come out of the woodwork..someone along those lines..may have scooped her up..

 

[Ixchel13]

I definitely agree with the bolded part. Any motorists (or even pedestrians) in the area would have noticed a disheveled and dirty (possibly bloody) petite blonde staggering down the street, with no shoes or possessions. I wouldn't think this would be a common occurrence, even if it is a bit of a 'party town'. IF she left on foot that night, someone would have seen her. There would have been people out and about at that time for sure (end of the night stragglers heading home after partying most of the night, people moving to another location to 'keep the party going'), so I'm surprised there aren't a bunch of witnesses who saw her wandering around.

(I'm a quiet follower of this thread, Lauren's case really drew me in when I first joined here, but I don't often have much more to add on what you are all saying... You're all doing such a fantastic job. :seeya: )

BBM one of these could have snatched her. as some are saying.

 

[deca]

Not only could someone who was up late snatched her--- but anyone who was up early.
Sanitation workers, some delivery drivers, factory workers, etc. I used to work at a factory and first shift usually had to be there around 5 am.

 

[Chuz Life]

They every little tip or bit of information may help.

I had a bit of a revelation late last night that could help with the case.

I've been consulting all of the reports and video accounts of Lauren's last sightings, BTowns photos from earlier threads, plus the 2011 Aerial map I have - to try to visually retrace her steps that night and early morning.

A video of a news report caught my attention and I have some serious doubts about J. Rosenbaum's actual ability to have seen Lauren "rounding the corner" of 11th and College Ave. As he claims.

Here is a copy of my e-mail (TIP) to Laurens tip hotline/ page.

(Sorry it's a little wordy)

Hello.

My Name is *advertiser censored* *advertiser censored* and I am writing with some possible information on the disappearance of Lauren Spierer.

I am a member of a few online groups who work to resolve missing person's cases and since Lauren's case was so close to my home (*advertiser censored*, In) I have been taking more and more interest in the case.

Recently, I started creating a more detailed map for Lauren's whereabouts, times and routes than what I have been able to find on the internet.

Of course, more and more questions can be raised when working on a project like that and when trying to confirm the details made public.

Specifically, I have found quite a bit of disparity between remarks attributed to "Jason Rosenbaum" in his recollection of the last time and place that he saw Lauren.

The News stories range from "I saw her walk away for a short time" to "I saw her round the corner at 11th and College Ave and head towards her apartment.

This News Article seems to confirm the LATER of those two.

IF it is true that Rosenbaum claimed to have seen Lauren "Round the Corner?"

Please contact me as soon as possible because I believe that I (or any authority) can prove that would have been a LIE.

If you watch and consider this news report you will see that from the balcony that J. Rosenbaum claims that he watched her from - it would be nearly impossible to see her anywhere near the corner (because of the trees along the way). Especially at 4:30 am on a poorly lit street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsM437KjutU

The video (Time @ 2:45 - 4:00) shows a reporter walking down 11th Street with the trees and 5N Townhouses behind himself. This is the Path that J. Rosenbaum claims that Lauren took.

The balcony is not clearly visible behind him (the reporter). However, it doesn't seem possible that someone as tall as Rosenbaum is - standing on that balcony would have been able to see someone "round the corner." Because the trees at least would have been in the way... and at 4:30 AM?

It just doesn't seem possible.

 

[imkeylime]

Not only could someone who was up late snatched her--- but anyone who was up early.
Sanitation workers, some delivery drivers, factory workers, etc. I used to work at a factory and first shift usually had to be there around 5 am.

Like the guys in the white truck (who have been cleared, I realize)? Thinking outside of the box, is there any possibility that they were involved somehow but not responsible for LS' removal from the area? For example, could they have been on lookout or something like that? Weren't they employed in the construction industry? Just remembering all the construction going on in Bloomington at the time ...

 

[akh]

The thing about rounding the corner has been discussed before. In and of itself it's probative value is a bit compromised because, even assuming those are his exact words, it could've been a turn of phrase and not necessarily meant to be taken 100% literally. Just that he saw her headed towards the corner.

Then the other problem is the false memory angle where he simply believed he saw her round the corner but that is just his mind filling in gaps. This is exactly the kind of thing where eyewitness reports get a bad rap because hindsight fills in little blanks. Nobody intends to lie, but rather small details become muddled. IOW, he might seen her walking towards the corner (and it's not like he would be watching this thinking it would ever be important to remember exactly what he's seeing) and then later, with the anticipation that she'd be rounding the corner, his mind thinks it saw that. Even if reality is different.

Of course it's entirely possible it's all one big lie so I'm not discounting that possibility. But as the missing piece of the case and a smoking gun, it isn't that.

 

[Chuz Life]

The thing about rounding the corner has been discussed before. In and of itself it's probative value is a bit compromised because, even assuming those are his exact words, it could've been a turn of phrase and not necessarily meant to be taken 100% literally. Just that he saw her headed towards the corner.

Thinking as an investigating authority (detective, P.I. etc. ) As someone who is trying to determine the last known location of a missing person... I can't imagine taking that report any way other than literal.

If I were taking that report...

Let's just say, I hope the police officers who took the statements were more thorough than to allow for a POI to get away with generalities.

Then the other problem is the false memory angle where he simply believed he saw her round the corner but that is just his mind filling in gaps. This is exactly the kind of thing where eyewitness reports get a bad rap because hindsight fills in little blanks. Nobody intends to lie, but rather small details become muddled.

One would have to wonder why an investigating officer would not then say... "Take me to the spot you last saw her" and maybe even call a K9 unit to search from there.

Of course, I know the probable reasons and excuses for not doing so.

But still.

IOW, he might seen her walking towards the corner (and it's not like he would be watching this thinking it would ever be important to remember exactly what he's seeing) and then later, with the anticipation that she'd be rounding the corner, his mind thinks it saw that. Even if reality is different.

I won't try to get into his head. However, I can't imagine that someone under-aged being that messed up from a party I hosted at my apartment - walking away barefoot with no purse, ID, or keys would look good on me.... if she were picked up by a cop and brought back to my place.

It certainly was in Roesenbaum's best interest to get her home safe that night whether he actually thought it was important at the time or not.

Of course it's entirely possible it's all one big lie so I'm not discounting that possibility. But as the missing piece of the case and a smoking gun, it isn't that.

Thanks for your input on that. I have no doubt that the police would take that exact line of thinking.

 

[imkeylime]

... I won't try to get into his head. However, I can't imagine that someone under-aged being that messed up from a party I hosted at my apartment - walking away barefoot with no purse, ID, or keys would look good on me.... if she were picked up by a cop and brought back to my place.

It certainly was in Roesenbaum's best interest to get her home safe that night whether he actually thought it was important at the time or not....

Respectfully snipped by me. I really appreciate the connection you make here ... JR letting LS leave (supposedly) is the part of his story I can't get past. The only way I can fathom it is by thinking he was just too selfish to care about her. But as you point out, had she been busted en route, it could have been traced back to him. So even if he was that selfish, would he have let her leave?

Playing devil's advocate, I think it's safe to think that all involved were messed up at night. That could have affected his decision making. But if he took the time to make calls on her behalf (supposedly), why not walk her home?

Apart from the fact that I don't think LS could walk on her own, I'm stuck on this detail. The same thing could be asked about MB. Why didn't HE walk her home? IMO, it's worth noting that both guys could have but didn't. So why? Because she couldn't walk, and they didn't want to be seen carrying a passed out LS (or worse) back to SW?

 

[AbbeyR]

If Lauren said she wanted to go home, why didn't she just leave Mike's and go home?

If Mike and Jason were so concerned, why ddn't they just walk her home instead of bringing her over to Jason's, and calling other people at Smallwood at 4 AM to come back and pick her up?

The only logical answer to these quesions, IMO, is that she couldn't walk. They would presumably have had to do what Corey did a few minutes earlier, and throw a semi-conscious (or worse) barefoot, injured girl over their shoulder and drag her back home.

I can't get past the fact that every witness from Kilroy's on says she needed to walk with assistance or was carried. The magical transformation to walking away without stumbling a short time later is just one of the many things that makes. no. sense.

Chuz life, I don't believe he could see to the corner either. He did, reportedly, get in a police car the next morning and show them the route he was talking about, so I'm sure they made him clarify.


JMO

 

[AbbeyR]

Also,

Corey's lawyer made a point of saying Lauren helped Corey home = not true (Video showed Corey carried her)

MB made a point of saying he "watched her walk out the door" when she went to JR's = not true (Now the story is he took her over to Jason's)

Then JR says he "watched her walk out the door"

It doesn't give me much confidence in his story. Why did they actively try to mislead people about her not being able to walk unassisted earlier? Why did they omit key parts of the story?

Again, every time I think about scenarios of her walking out the door (which I do, btw), I keep coming back to question how the actions of the guys at 5 N would make sense if they thought she had been abducted off the street. They don't.

JMO

 

[Jupiter812]

Respectfully snipped by me. I really appreciate the connection you make here ... JR letting LS leave (supposedly) is the part of his story I can't get past. The only way I can fathom it is by thinking he was just too selfish to care about her. But as you point out, had she been busted en route, it could have been traced back to him. So even if he was that selfish, would he have let her leave?

Playing devil's advocate, I think it's safe to think that all involved were messed up at night. That could have affected his decision making. But if he took the time to make calls on her behalf (supposedly), why not walk her home?

Apart from the fact that I don't think LS could walk on her own, I'm stuck on this detail. The same thing could be asked about MB. Why didn't HE walk her home? IMO, it's worth noting that both guys could have but didn't. So why? Because she couldn't walk, and they didn't want to be seen carrying a passed out LS (or worse) back to SW?

"Why?" is a very good and pertinent question. It has really struck a chord with me today.

 

[Jupiter812]

If Lauren said she wanted to go home, why didn't she just leave Mike's and go home?

If Mike and Jason were so concerned, why ddn't they just walk her home instead of bringing her over to Jason's, and calling other people at Smallwood at 4 AM to come back and pick her up?

The only logical answer to these quesions, IMO, is that she couldn't walk. They would presumably have had to do what Corey did a few minutes earlier, and throw a semi-conscious (or worse) barefoot, injured girl over their shoulder and drag her back home.

I can't get past the fact that every witness from Kilroy's on says she needed to walk with assistance or was carried. The magical transformation to walking away without stumbling a short time later is just one of the many things that makes. no. sense.

Chuz life, I don't believe he could see to the corner either. He did, reportedly, get in a police car the next morning and show them the route he was talking about, so I'm sure they made him clarify.


JMO

Either they disappeared her; or they had someone do it for them; or they literally put her out on the curb and shut the door. It's really down to these scenarios.

We know there are no back doors to 5 North, but it's only a few steps from their front door to get into a vehicle parked on 11th St. And of course we've discussed the duffel bag as carrier but it really is not necessary given that she was out on the streets incapacitated and no one was alarmed.

 

[Chuz Life]

However there was a camera that captured the last known footage of Lauren Spierer. She fell FACE DOWN WITHOUT BLOCKING exiting the alley as it opens to the gravel lot behind 5N enroute from Smallwood (after someone also audibly and visually witnessed LS slamming her head on concrete steps at 10th and College while falling over from a sitting position.)

I've tried (using Goole Maps / street view) to pinpoint the location of those steps. (with no success).

Can anyone help?

 

[Jupiter812]

I've tried (using Goole Maps / street view) to pinpoint the location of those steps. (with no success).

Can anyone help?

http://www.gilliatte.com/projects/multi-family/tenth-college.html

There are several sets of steps. Three face College Ave, one faces 10th, and another faces Morton. The latter set go below street level.

 

[Chuz Life]

She fell FACE DOWN WITHOUT BLOCKING exiting the alley as it opens to the gravel lot behind 5N enroute from Smallwood (after someone also audibly and visually witnessed LS slamming her head on concrete steps at 10th and College while falling over from a sitting position.) .

I've tried (using Goole Maps / street view) to pinpoint the location of those steps. (with no success).

Can anyone help?

http://www.gilliatte.com/projects/multi-family/tenth-college.html

There are several sets of steps. Three face College Ave, one faces 10th, and another faces Morton. The latter set go below street level.

Thanks Jupiter. I did see the steps on that building and thought they might be the ones... but I had also read some reports that had pictures of steps that looked like they were in front of a residence.

I don't suppose you know which specific set of steps Lauren was seen by the witness sitting on... do you? I would like to mark that location on my map and I'm trying to map the route she most likely took to get to that point.

 

[Chuz Life]

... Chuz life, I don't believe he could see to the corner either. He did, reportedly, get in a police car the next morning and show them the route he was talking about, so I'm sure they made him clarify. JMO

I found a picture (here) that exposes what I think is a lie by Rosenbaum.

As you can see in this image take from the front of 5N and looking East towards the interesection of 11th and College Ave... You cab barely see past the Alley at the end of 5N and that is not even half the distance he claims to have watched her. You can imagine (from the photo) that standing on the balcony would have put the streetlight (above the trees) - Right in the line of sight.

If Rosenbaum took the police any further than just beyond the 5N Alley - to show them where he last saw Lauren?

He lied.

I'm sorry the picture is so big. I don't know how to scale it down.