IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[imkeylime]

Either they disappeared her; or they had someone do it for them; or they literally put her out on the curb and shut the door. It's really down to these scenarios.

We know there are no back doors to 5 North, but it's only a few steps from their front door to get into a vehicle parked on 11th St. And of course we've discussed the duffel bag as carrier but it really is not necessary given that she was out on the streets incapacitated and no one was alarmed.

Re: your third possible scenario (that they put her on the curb and shut the door): It would be heartless, but it could also have ended in the same scenario Chuz Life mentioned. If LE had found her there, they might have traced her to JR. I suppose someone else could have found her, i.e., a random abductor. What horrific luck for LS if that was the case.

I've probably mentioned this before, but a guy I considered a friend left a girlfriend of mine passed out in a lawn chair on his front lawn one summer break. Nice, huh? I do believe he called someone to come get her (someone did), but it could have ended so badly in the meantime. So people like that are out there (grrrr).

 

[Jupiter812]

Re: your third possible scenario (that they put her on the curb and shut the door): It would be heartless, but it could also have ended in the same scenario Chuz Life mentioned. If LE had found her there, they might have traced her to JR. I suppose someone else could have found her, i.e., a random abductor. What horrific luck for LS if that was the case.

I've probably mentioned this before, but a guy I considered a friend left a girlfriend of mine passed out in a lawn chair on his front lawn one summer break. Nice, huh? I do believe he called someone to come get her (someone did), but it could have ended so badly in the meantime. So people like that are out there (grrrr).

I sometimes think about the stairs in the 5N apts since they are townhouses. She couldn't have managed them on her own; she would fall.

Another thing I wonder about is if JR would ever have called JW that night. I know he would risk his ire by being friends with CR, but might JR call JW if Lauren's life was in danger?

 

[Jupiter812]

Thanks Jupiter. I did see the steps on that building and thought they might be the ones... but I had also read some reports that had pictures of steps that looked like they were in front of a residence.

I don't suppose you know which specific set of steps Lauren was seen by the witness sitting on... do you? I would like to mark that location on my map and I'm trying to map the route she most likely took to get to that point.

What "reports" had pics of steps in front of a residence? Supposedly the bar mgr said they were on the steps by the clock but that really could be 3 out of 5 sets. I dunno.

 

[Ixchel13]

What "reports" had pics of steps in front of a residence? Supposedly the bar mgr said they were on the steps by the clock but that really could be 3 out of 5 sets. I dunno.

if she hit her head on steps by a residence, that means they first walked up 10th street to Morton and turned left. those apts have steps. THEN, after she hit her head, they could have doubled back to the front steps and tried to go to someone else's apt, or this all could have been done vice-versa.
OR, she could have gone up to 5N, and before going to JR's from CR's, she could have gone back to 10th and College for another try, that would fit in with the witness account of 3:38 a.m. I think this witness is involved, I remember she said she "doubled back" to see if Lauren was ok. IMO, the witness was caught on camera, was ID'd, and then gave the police her statement. No one ever said this witness came forward voluntarily.
Like the altercation, this 10th and College thing is completely deemed. or seems to have been deemed, irrelevant compared to the 5N POIs, when really, if these 2 parties were in communication with each other, someone at 10th and College could have as easily zeroed in on Lauren.
The thing that has always been in question is, did she leave 5N after 4 a.m.?
And even so, someone at 5N could have then followed her. I don't think she died at 5N. If so, I don't think they would have hidden her, almost always they leave the body somewhere sure to be found, yet not near enough to be blamed on them, like they could have just placed her back in the alley and then it would definitely seem like she left to walk home and died. To hide the body would make them look like the guilty people they look like now, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[sammi89]

I sometimes think about the stairs in the 5N apts since they are townhouses. She couldn't have managed them on her own; she would fall.

Another thing I wonder about is if JR would ever have called JW that night. I know he would risk his ire by being friends with CR, but might JR call JW if Lauren's life was in danger?

Honestly, I would think the boyfriend would be one of the first calls normally.

There's two things that make me think that JR probably did NOT call him:

1. I don't think JR & JW were actually friends. I've heard that they were involved in the same frat and I've heard that they were actually not at all involved in the same frat so I'm really not sure what to believe on that front. Even if they WERE in the same frat, it doesn't follow that means that they were friends. Anyone who has been involved in Greek life knows very well that a house can be very much divided into smaller groups (and sometimes, these smaller groups might actively dislike other members). However, if they were in the same frat, it makes it more likely that a) they would have each other's numbers or, if not, b) they would know someone who had the other's phone number (in this case, maybe JR had JW's roomie's number or something).

Sure, LS might have been able to recall it. Admittedly, I struggle to remember my bf's number when I do not have my phone lol, so I would not be surprised if she did not know it, especially considering the state she was in.


2. If JR DID call JW, I'm a little unclear why JR hasn't thrown JW under the bus with that. I believe there were rumors (or was it reported too?) that JW asked JR to leave parties after LS' disappearence and may have said some other not-nice things to him lol, which reconfirms that they were not friends at least after LS disappeared, if not before. JR has received a ton of criticism (including websites saying he needs to talk!) so it seems that if JR could have pointed the finger to JW, he would have, even if JW never answered the phone.
(I know, I know, maybe he did and it just hasn't been released... I still think JR would have leaked it or his lawyer would have strongly suggested it because of the hit to his reputation.)

 

[Chuz Life]

What "reports" had pics of steps in front of a residence? Supposedly the bar mgr said they were on the steps by the clock but that really could be 3 out of 5 sets. I dunno.

I'm trying to re-locate those reports myself Jupiter.

These are the specific locations and times that I would like to depict as accurately as possible on the map - if anyone can help.

1. The exact location where Lauren's keys were found
2. The exact locations where Lauren's purse was found
3. The exact set of stairs where Lauren was seen sitting (and hit her head)

* Disregard this post.... I believe I have confirmation enough with the exception of the route that LS and CR took from Smallwood to the steps on 10th and College. Did they come up the alley or (because Lauren was barefoot) did they come straight up College?



I think it will be a good map for all of us to use... so Please help me get this right the first time, so I don't have to redo it.

 

[imkeylime]

I sometimes think about the stairs in the 5N apts since they are townhouses. She couldn't have managed them on her own; she would fall.

Another thing I wonder about is if JR would ever have called JW that night. I know he would risk his ire by being friends with CR, but might JR call JW if Lauren's life was in danger?

That's a good point ... if she fell on flat surfaces, she'd have a much harder time on stairs. I wonder about someone at JR's coming on to her. That might have made her try to get away, despite her condition.

Re: second phone call. Maybe JR didn't have JW's number, so he called someone whom he thought would have it? The second call was allegedly to another male who had been with LS at SW earlier, I think. Also, do we know if DR was friendly with JW?

 

[AbbeyR]

When I was searching for an old article the other day, I came across a few things that I hadn't read before or that I had forgotten about. Sammi's post about the frat reminded me of one of them. It's just a little thing but it added one more 'huh?' for me about the Wolffs.

"There's no one else to throw into the mix," Mike Ciravolo said after nearly two years of investigating the case with his firm, Beau Dietl & Associates. "Corey still won't talk to anyone. And Jesse, the boyfriend, his father was adamant that I should not bother his son anymore. And he even took exception to me doing follow-ups with some of his frat brothers. I told him, in no uncertain terms, that we're not going to stop just because you asked us to stop."

http://www.jconline.com/print/usatodayarticle/2378845

Like their comments about drugs, all it did was make me wonder what they were worried about the investigators finding out.

 

[imkeylime]

When I was searching for an old article the other day, I came across a few things that I hadn't read before or that I had forgotten about. Sammi's post about the frat reminded me of one of them. It's just a little thing but it added one more 'huh?' for me about the Wolffs.

http://www.jconline.com/print/usatodayarticle/2378845

Like their comments about drugs, all it did was make me wonder what they were worried about the investigators finding out.

It's odd, isn't it? You'd think they'd want all the help they could get, for both the Spierers' and Jesse's sake. They seem rather over-protective, for whatever reason. Maybe he's had a hard time dealing with the loss, perhaps even feels guilty because he let her be that night? Or maybe he feels like she betrayed him by hanging out with CR? Sorry if that sounds melodramatic! Regardless, they're behavior raises more questions than it answers.

 

[Dixie811]

When I was searching for an old article the other day, I came across a few things that I hadn't read before or that I had forgotten about. Sammi's post about the frat reminded me of one of them. It's just a little thing but it added one more 'huh?' for me about the Wolffs.



http://www.jconline.com/print/usatodayarticle/2378845

Like their comments about drugs, all it did was make me wonder what they were worried about the investigators finding out.

It would seem that if Jesse has nothing to hide, what harm could it do (to Jesse) for investigators to speak to his frat brothers? Strange.

 

[Kadence]

When I was searching for an old article the other day, I came across a few things that I hadn't read before or that I had forgotten about. Sammi's post about the frat reminded me of one of them. It's just a little thing but it added one more 'huh?' for me about the Wolffs.



http://www.jconline.com/print/usatodayarticle/2378845

Like their comments about drugs, all it did was make me wonder what they were worried about the investigators finding out.

Interesting, I had never seen this article before, I don't believe. Two things that jumped out at me:

"The parents, and their private investigators, still think those three young men are withholding information about those final hours. They also remain skeptical of Spierer's boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, who was trying to get together with her that night and says he was sleeping when she vanished."

and

"The Spierers don't think their daughter was abducted by a stranger. Their focus continues to be on Spierer's then-boyfriend and the three young men who were the last people known to see her in the predawn hours of June 3, 2011."

So Jesse is not named in the complaint so something must have cleared him, no?

Looking at the complaint again, with new eyes, it appears to me, imho, that what we have here is that someone is not telling the truth. So, if you're reading, and I'm sure you are, I'm going to ask you again to tell the truth, it will set you free and will bring the Spierers the truth they seek, they just want their daughter home, choose the right thing, after all, it could be your daughter that this happens to in the future, karma, I wish you no ill will, just tell the truth, you can do it, and you should do it, it will haunt you forever otherwise. I suspect, it may be haunting you at this very moment. Please.

 

[Jupiter812]

When I was searching for an old article the other day, I came across a few things that I hadn't read before or that I had forgotten about. Sammi's post about the frat reminded me of one of them. It's just a little thing but it added one more 'huh?' for me about the Wolffs.



http://www.jconline.com/print/usatodayarticle/2378845

Like their comments about drugs, all it did was make me wonder what they were worried about the investigators finding out.

For sure it's about drugs. It takes a lot for a frat to get kicked off campus. And their behaviors too, such as but not only hazing. What does that tell ya about the potentialities on that fateful night? I also have to wonder: Might JW's frat bros know anything personal about his relationship with Lauren?

 

[Dixie811]

Interesting, I had never seen this article before, I don't believe. Two things that jumped out at me:

"The parents, and their private investigators, still think those three young men are withholding information about those final hours. They also remain skeptical of Spierer's boyfriend, Jesse Wolff, who was trying to get together with her that night and says he was sleeping when she vanished."

and

"The Spierers don't think their daughter was abducted by a stranger. Their focus continues to be on Spierer's then-boyfriend and the three young men who were the last people known to see her in the predawn hours of June 3, 2011."

So Jesse is not named in the complaint so something must have cleared him, no?

Looking at the complaint again, with new eyes, it appears to me, imho, that what we have here is that someone is not telling the truth. So, if you're reading, and I'm sure you are, I'm going to ask you again to tell the truth, it will set you free and will bring the Spierers the truth they seek, they just want their daughter home, choose the right thing, after all, it could be your daughter that this happens to in the future, karma, I wish you no ill will, just tell the truth, you can do it, and you should do it, it will haunt you forever otherwise. I suspect, it may be haunting you at this very moment. Please.

BBM

I don't think anything has cleared him... but rather, he has not admitted (& there is no evidence we are aware of) that he was ever with Lauren at all that night. So it seems like any suit against him would be pure speculation & likely dismissed.

JMO

 

[imkeylime]

BBM

I don't think anything has cleared him... but rather, he has not admitted (& there is no evidence we are aware of) that he was ever with Lauren at all that night. So it seems like any suit against him would be pure speculation & likely dismissed.

JMO

Agreed. His presence (or lack of) doesn't fit the parameters of the civil case for wrongful death. He did try to contact LS that night, apparently. And as far as we know, he didn't know of her condition at the time. That's how I see it anyhow, though I'm no lawyer! PS: But that doesn't mean he doesn't know anything or shouldn't be a POI. JMO.

 

[akh]

The civil case, at least on the surface, is all about saying the 5N guys should've taken better care of LS while she was in their presence. It's not a wrongful death suit. The above post is right- there's no way to name JW in that. He hasn't admitted or been placed at being with her that night so how could they argue he should've taken better care of her?

 

[imkeylime]

The civil case, at least on the surface, is all about saying the 5N guys should've taken better care of LS while she was in their presence. It's not a wrongful death suit. The above post is right- there's no way to name JW in that. He hasn't admitted or been placed at being with her that night so how could they argue he should've taken better care of her?

Agreed, JW can't be a part of it as presented. This may be wrong ... but this article calls it a wrongful death suit, suggesting that if they had taken care of her she wouldn't be deceased:

http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/spierer-parents-pursuing-civil-suit-disappearance-53935/

Not sure that matters, though. The only way I can see JW involved (in the suit) is if he provided her with something she ingested ... but he still wouldn't have been around to see the results of that!

 

[Ixchel13]

if she hit her head on steps by a residence, that means they first walked up 10th street to Morton and turned left. those apts have steps. THEN, after she hit her head, they could have doubled back to the front steps and tried to go to someone else's apt, or this all could have been done vice-versa.
OR, she could have gone up to 5N, and before going to JR's from CR's, she could have gone back to 10th and College for another try, that would fit in with the witness account of 3:38 a.m. I think this witness is involved, I remember she said she "doubled back" to see if Lauren was ok. IMO, the witness was caught on camera, was ID'd, and then gave the police her statement. No one ever said this witness came forward voluntarily.
Like the altercation, this 10th and College thing is completely deemed. or seems to have been deemed, irrelevant compared to the 5N POIs, when really, if these 2 parties were in communication with each other, someone at 10th and College could have as easily zeroed in on Lauren.
The thing that has always been in question is, did she leave 5N after 4 a.m.?
And even so, someone at 5N could have then followed her. I don't think she died at 5N. If so, I don't think they would have hidden her, almost always they leave the body somewhere sure to be found, yet not near enough to be blamed on them, like they could have just placed her back in the alley and then it would definitely seem like she left to walk home and died. To hide the body would make them look like the guilty people they look like now, it just doesn't make sense.

quoting myself, sorry, because I meant to say they could have walked to Morton Street and turned RIGHT towards JR's, not left.

Anyway, there's a new sexual assault article in the IDS today, it happened on Sept. 17 but was just reported by victim Oct 2. LE was probably sitting on it because the IDS usually reports things as soon as they get info. The victim and perp were "co -workers downtown" again, the vagueness. Here is a downtown employee, most likely a bar employee, sexually assaulting a co-worker. Details were not forthcoming. But, if this guy assaulted a co=worker, maybe he has assaulted, or set up someone, to assault another customer!
We have another woman assaulted at "a downtown bar" on the 29th.
Someone needs to get to the bottom of these sexual assaults at "a downtown location" to see if they are the same place!
Again, why in hell's damnation are they not revealing where these things are taking place!? I have a lingering, simmering suspicion these are taking place at one location. 4 or five in the past year at "a downtown bar."

 

[Chuz Life]

I'm still trying to refine a more detailed and accurate timeline and map (to share with everybody) and I'm trying to get more information on the "three girls" who were supposedly at the "pre-game" party at Rosenbaum's (5N).

I have read some comments that Lauren and Corey "tried to stop by" those girl's apartment on the way back to 5N (from Smallwood after Corey got punched)... but they (the girls) were not home.

Supposedly, those girls lived at the "10th And College" apartments.... But there is no mention of any video or witnesses - to confirm their attempt to visit those girls.

This makes me seriously consider the 'bar manager's' report of seeing Lauren and a "mystery man" on the Steps at 3:38 am... may have even more merit than the Police have considered.

Can anyone confirm the claim that Lauren and Corey tried to stop by to see those girls and (if they did).... what time it was or would have been?

 

[imkeylime]

For sure it's about drugs. It takes a lot for a frat to get kicked off campus. And their behaviors too, such as but not only hazing. What does that tell ya about the potentialities on that fateful night? I also have to wonder: Might JW's frat bros know anything personal about his relationship with Lauren?

Interesting point about the frat bros possibly knowing something about JW and LS.

FWIW, I'm thinking that the drug angle may play a part in both JR/MB/CR's nonresponses and JW's nonresponse to the case. It seems possible that it could be one common denominator that they might all not want to talk about.

 

[Jupiter812]

Interesting point about the frat bros possibly knowing something about JW and LS.

FWIW, I'm thinking that the drug angle may play a part in both JR/MB/CR's nonresponses and JW's nonresponse to the case. It seems possible that it could be one common denominator that they might all not want to talk about.

Here's what I don't get though: All it would take is an ANONYMOUS tip from any one of these guys or any one who knows what happened and where she might be. Why can't any one do that? Surely they can offer something without self identifying.