In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

[JBean]

Is there much subject to interpretation or is it pretty cut and dried?
referring to the testing itself not how it happened.

 

[Bev]

No, the carpet sample don't show 90 add., that in fact is the standard - calcium : magnesium is 5 : 1 in a body that has been dead for ninety days with no doubt an optimum ambient means temp of 72F. The ratio of calcium to magnesium would indicate that the body was in the trunk from the time of death until it was removed if the means temp in Florida was 95F on those days.

I took that to mean that the ratio of calcium to magnesium is a constant or fairly constant in human decomposition.

JBean - I believe it is a somewhat longer window of opportunity to dispose of the body because the means temp. was 86F, not 95F.

 

[DesSands]

The reason this is important is that it gives LE an whole new time frame of where and when KC dumped the body. It would be some time on the 19th that she would have disposed of it so the pings on that date would be of the utmost importance. This really narrows the window of opportunity for Texeqsh, doesn't it?

There have been some startling discoveries thrown about. It sems LE has some kind of info. to back alot of this. Of course they're keeping it close to the vest.
But not only is it weird that these tests show she was in the trunk 2.6 days, it's also been said that she was killed sometime late 15th or 16th.
They also infer the swimming pool and a few other things. The tests might be right on as she borrowed the shovel on the 18th. That makes it 2.6 days. I have a feeling she was moved around. LE knows alot more than we think. I have my theory as to what happened which I will post on the other thread so I don't go OT here.
But now we have an easier challenge as to where Caylee might be as was stated earlier in this thread, unless she was moved.
As for me, I'm dependent on all the great minds here to figure where pings fit in.
TIA to all who spend time doing this. :blowkiss:

 

[JBean]

No, the carpet sample don't show 90 add., that in fact is the standard - calcium : magnesium is 5 : 1 in a body that has been dead for ninety days with no doubt an optimum ambient means temp of 72F. The ratio of calcium to magnesium would indicate that the body was in the trunk from the time of death until it was removed if the means temp in Florida was 95F on those days.

I took that to mean that the ratio of calcium to magnesium is a constant or fairly constant in human decomposition.

OH that makes sense. I need to go read the report.

 

[Noway]

I think we need a forensic expert to summarize those findings for us.

Modified: I know I do.

 

[impatientredhead]

Actually, I don't think the report is saying that the death was suffocation, the report is saying that the level of gases measured is consistent with the decomposition of a body that is in a fairly airtight container - in other words air did not promote as rapid decomposition as a body would that was just placed into the trunk without being contained in something.

I believe, and someone explained it better than I can in the other thread, the report says the chemicals present are indicative of an anaerobic decomposition event, meaning anaerobic bacteria breakdown was occuring (dead body, tissue and organs with no oxygen) creating chemicals that are indicative of a body being present in the trunk. Not referring to cause of death or the environment the body was in. Remember the point of their test was to establish the dogs were correct and that a body had been there.

 

[Bev]

Well, I have to say that it blows my theory to shreds. If she killed the baby on the 16th between 2 and 4pm and I am assuming closer to 4pm (or she discovered her dead at 4pm because an overdose can cause cardiac arrthymia which she might not have noticed if she drugged her and she died in her sleep) I don't think according to the pings on that day that she would have had time to dig a place in the yard to hide her, put her in the trunk and left the house trying to figure out what to do.

Someone said that she went back on the 18th and that was the day she borrowed the shovel and she might have laid the body on different parts of the yard trying to find a place to bury it.

 

[Salem]

Actually, I don't think the report is saying that the death was suffocation, the report is saying that the level of gases measured is consistent with the decomposition of a body that is in a fairly airtight container - in other words air did not promote as rapid decomposition as a body would that was just placed into the trunk without being contained in something.

Thanks Bev - I'm moving between two threads here and just read on the forensics #2 that I had misinterpreted this reading.

Also, Wedavis posted a link on the forensics thread that I am reposting here: http://library.thinkquest.org/11226/main/c17.htm

It talks about anearobic decomp being underground or underwater. Interesting, but does not do much for my confusion.

Now I will go back and catch up from my last post :crazy:

Salem

 

[Bev]

Anaerobic means simply, without air. The reason anaerobic decomp is slower is because the bacteria is deprived of air. It doesn't mean it has to be underwater or underground, it just means no air.

Interestingly, decomp underwater can be fast too, depending on the ph of the water and the amount of bacteria present.

 

[impatientredhead]

Anaerobic means simply, without air. The reason anaerobic decomp is slower is because the bacteria is deprived of air. It doesn't mean it has to be underwater or underground, it just means no air.

Interestingly, decomp underwater can be fast too, depending on the ph of the water and the amount of bacteria present.

Bev is right- all bodies go through anaerobic decomp. Here is another descripton of it. Not sure where the author on that link got his wording from but it is very confusing/misleading.

Fresh
The fresh stage of decomposition occurs during the first few days following death. There are no physical signs of decomposition during this time. However, homeostasis of the body has ceased, allowing cellular and soft tissue changes to occur because of the process of autolysis, the destruction of cells and organs due to an aseptic chemical process. At this point, the body enters algor mortis, the cooling of the body's temperature to that of its surroundings. When the body’s cells reach the final stage of autolysis, an anaerobic environment is created, that is, an environment wherein oxygen is not present. This allows the body’s normal bacteria to break down the remaining carbohydrates, proteins, and lipids. The products from the breakdown create acids, gases, and other products which cause volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and putrefactive effects. VOCs are produced during the early stages of human decomposition.[

 

[elfie]

2.6 days -

The FBI reports released are not all of the trunk evidence, many reports are still missing such as soil samples, maggot testing etc. but from these 34 pages here is what it states…..Caylee died and was placed somewhere first (doll house) and after the decomp process started; Caylee was placed in an air tight container such as a plastic bag and decomp started to break down the destruction of cells and organs due to an aseptic chemical process. When the body's cells reach the final stage of autolysis, an anaerobic environment is created, that is, an environment wherein oxygen is not present. This allows the body's normal bacteria to break down the remaining carbohydrates, proteins, and lipids. The products from the breakdown create acids, gases, and other products which cause volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and putrefactive effects. VOCs are produced during the early stages of human decomposition. This is the exact decomp the FBI lab found in the trunk which means that Caylee was dead 2.6 days before the decomp juices leaked in the trunk.

aka- the juices are that of a decomp at 2.6 days

***it could also be caylee died in the trunk and was there 2.6 days of decomp staged juices; then moved****

Thanks for the explanation Stark.

 

[elfie]

Well, I have to say that it blows my theory to shreds. If she killed the baby on the 16th between 2 and 4pm and I am assuming closer to 4pm (or she discovered her dead at 4pm because an overdose can cause cardiac arrthymia which she might not have noticed if she drugged her and she died in her sleep) I don't think according to the pings on that day that she would have had time to dig a place in the yard to hide her, put her in the trunk and left the house trying to figure out what to do.

Someone said that she went back on the 18th and that was the day she borrowed the shovel and she might have laid the body on different parts of the yard trying to find a place to bury it.

I find this to be a reasonable theory, too. It coincides with the shovel being borrowed and the dog alerts in the backyard and trunk of the car.

 

[Salem]

Bev is right- all bodies go through anaerobic decomp. Here is another descripton of it. Not sure where the author on that link got his wording from but it is very confusing/misleading.

Fresh
The fresh stage of decomposition occurs during the first few days following death. There are no physical signs of decomposition during this time. However, homeostasis of the body has ceased, allowing cellular and soft tissue changes to occur because of the process of autolysis, the destruction of cells and organs due to an aseptic chemical process. At this point, the body enters algor mortis, the cooling of the body's temperature to that of its surroundings. When the body’s cells reach the final stage of autolysis, an anaerobic environment is created, that is, an environment wherein oxygen is not present. This allows the body’s normal bacteria to break down the remaining carbohydrates, proteins, and lipids. The products from the breakdown create acids, gases, and other products which cause volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and putrefactive effects. VOCs are produced during the early stages of human decomposition.[

Thanks you guys for taking the time to help me understand here.

Redhead - from what I am reading here, the body, no matter where or in what, will do through this anaerobic breakdown, early in the decomp process. Do I have it right?

Thanks,

Salem

 

[Bev]

Elfie, I assumed that the baby died and she buried it in the backyard and then went back for it, but after looking at those pings on that day, I am speculating now that she may have drugged her to get her to sleep in the afternoon, came back and found her dead and then the flurry of frantic phone calls began - when she didn't get any response it gave her time to think that this was going to be hard to explain, put her in the trunk and took off somewhere. She had at least two hours to come up with some kind of story.

 

[Salem]

Elfie, I assumed that the baby died and she buried it in the backyard and then went back for it, but after looking at those pings on that day, I am speculating now that she may have drugged her to get her to sleep in the afternoon, came back and found her dead and then the flurry of frantic phone calls began - when she didn't get any response it gave her time to think that this was going to be hard to explain, put her in the trunk and took off somewhere. She had at least two hours to come up with some kind of story.

This sounds very plausible, given that after KC took off, she didn't go back......

Salem

 

[elfie]

Elfie, I assumed that the baby died and she buried it in the backyard and then went back for it, but after looking at those pings on that day, I am speculating now that she may have drugged her to get her to sleep in the afternoon, came back and found her dead and then the flurry of frantic phone calls began - when she didn't get any response it gave her time to think that this was going to be hard to explain, put her in the trunk and took off somewhere. She had at least two hours to come up with some kind of story.

It's just so sad. I hope TES finds Caylee. She deserves to have her story told and am glad WS is here to keep urging everyone on. I think she probably was already gone in the wee hours of the morning and the sighting on the 16th was not as it has been recounted.

 

[Bev]

Salem, don't mean to jump the answer, but yes, all bodies go through anaerobic and aerobic decomp. What this report is saying is that the aerobic decomp was retarded for some reason, probably because it was placed in an oxi deprived condition. The measured gases consistent with anaerobic decomp.

 

[wedavis]

Thanks you guys for taking the time to help me understand here.

Redhead - from what I am reading here, the body, no matter where or in what, will do through this anaerobic breakdown, early in the decomp process. Do I have it right?

Thanks,

Salem

If that is the case why even bother putting it in the report?

That would be like stating someones heart stopped beating because they are dead. (Duh) KWIM?

 

[wedavis]

Salem, don't mean to jump the answer, but yes, all bodies go through anaerobic and aerobic decomp. What this report is saying is that the aerobic decomp was retarded for some reason, probably because it was placed in an oxi deprived condition. The measured gases consistent with anaerobic decomp.

To me that makes the most sense. IMO!

 

[Salem]

Salem, don't mean to jump the answer, but yes, all bodies go through anaerobic and aerobic decomp. What this report is saying is that the aerobic decomp was retarded for some reason, probably because it was placed in an oxi deprived condition. The measured gases consistent with anaerobic decomp.

Bev - thank you! You guys have been a great help to me, here. Now that I have a better understanding, I'll go back and read the reports again. They will probably make a lot more sense.

And at least now, there is some confirmation that Caylee was placed in something. Which takes me back to the original TES search where they told searchers to be on the look out for a rug, wasn't it? I think a rug.

Salem