Internet fury after customer describes on Facebook how salon owner 'made mom and her

[ATasteOfHoney]

They can't refuse service for having a disability, but they can for causing a disruption.

Having a disability does not give someone the right to cause a disruption.[/QUOTE]

Bingo!

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

BBM-now this statement just scares me. The bottom line is that you have a choice-they do not.

So what do you suggest for the parent of a child with a behavioral disorder such as autism or aspergers, etc... Should they just keep their child at home?

http://www.autismspeaks.org/

It is an issue----I have kids (relatives) that have profound ADD/ADHD, Tourette's Syndrome, Kleptomania, Bulimia, a Crack/Heroin addict, and one that is a Psychopath. They do all sorts of things that are very irritating, embarassing, and unsettling to many people around them in public and it is hard to predict what their behavior or actions will be.

It is difficult to determine what to do. It really is.

 

[especiallyheather]

If someone is disrupting the other customers they can be asked to leave. Unfortunately, screaming toddlers are not a relaxing experience at a salon. Maybe the owner could have dealt with it more calmly, but salons are private businesses and can ask anyone to leave at any time.

Yet this was not a screaming toddler but an autistic child who was only doing what he knows how to do when he is scared... big difference.

 

[FrayedKnot]

I definitely see the point some posters made about a patrons right to a pleasant experience. I mean, I understand that certain disabilities make it very difficult if not impossible for those individuals to avoid upsets and sometimes meltdowns or other behaviors that might be seen as disruptive or offensive.

One of my neighbors is a young woman with Aspergers. She is also learning disabled and has caregivers.

Since our pool opened several weeks ago, we see her quite often while swimming and she has become very attached to my 11-year-old daughter. Last week my DD had a friend over and our neighbor, after looking at the two girls eating watermelon, told my DD she'd better not have anymore because she was pretty fat. My DD's face just fell and her eyes welled up.

I gently asked the woman to please not hurt my DD's feelings. However she just kept saying how thin DD's friend was and how flabby DD's tummy was.

I gave up trying to politely ask her to stop and we just left, with DD in tears and her friend embarrassed and silent. The neighbor's caregivers were there but did not try to help out in redirecting her. It honestly might not be part of her job, though.

I talked to both girls and assured DD that everyone's body is different and that they are BOTH beautiful, healthy girls. I explained that our neighbor's brain works differently and she isn't able to control the things she says sometimes.

Thing is, it probably won't ever take away the hurt and embarrassment my DD experienced. I have been alarmed that my DD seems to have no appetite since then. She also hasn't asked to have any friends over and refuses to go to our pool if the neighbor is there.

I really don't know what the right answer is, but I do know that I feel very disturbed that my DD was so affected and that we now aren't free to enjoy our pool without fear of more hurtful remarks. I understand that our neighbor can't help it, but knowing that doesn't make it any easier to swallow.

I am not ignorant of autism, Asperger's, ODD, ADHD, etc. In fact both my DD and I have ADHD/ADD. And I teach preschool. So I do get it, I really do. I also know that I am comparing an Aspy adult with an Aspy toddler, so it's not exactly the same.

I just think that we ought to have a right to enjoy our pool, too, but sadly we can't and my DD thinks she looks disgusting.

MOO.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Yet this was not a screaming toddler but an autistic child who was only doing what he knows how to do when he is scared... big difference.

But generally speaking if you are in a restaurant, say, how would you know if the child is autistic? Do you go up to the table and ask the parents? I don't think I could do that. And does that mean that other patrons should be less disrupted by the screaming of an autistic child than that of a "typical" child?

Even if you understand that the child cannot help it, it doesn't make it any less unpleasant when you are paying to have a nice experience.

Again, I don't know what the right answer is, but I do believe that those other patrons in my example should have the right to enjoy their meals without screaming.

 

[FrayedKnot]

If someone is disrupting the other customers they can be asked to leave. Unfortunately, screaming toddlers are not a relaxing experience at a salon. Maybe the owner could have dealt with it more calmly, but salons are private businesses and can ask anyone to leave at any time.

I love well behaved kids but not out-of-control children.
There's salons that specialize in toddler haircuts.

I feel bad for waitresses that are demanded to do something when it's the parents responsibility to remove the child immediately if acting up.

My DD is generally very well-behaved in public and always has been even when little, even with her ADHD. But I never took her to a high-end salon to have her hair cut, either. We went to Doolittle's or some other family friendly salon.

I also wouldn't have taken her to a fine-dining restaurant or the symphony or a poetry reading at that age. They just aren't kid-friendly places. She'd have been miserable and so would have been anyone seated near us!

 

[x_files]

Yet this was not a screaming toddler but an autistic child who was only doing what he knows how to do when he is scared... big difference.

I think salon owner handled it inappropriately if she was yelling at the child and mom. I wish there was video footage.

 

[FrayedKnot]

It is an issue----I have kids (relatives) that have profound ADD/ADHD, Tourette's Syndrome, Kleptomania, Bulimia, a Crack/Heroin addict, and one that is a Psychopath. They do all sorts of things that are very irritating, embarassing, and unsettling to many people around them in public and it is hard to predict what their behavior or actions will be.

It is difficult to determine what to do. It really is.

It surely is., ITA. It's kind of like either way, somebody's rights are being stepped on. .

I guess with kids, you can stick to more kid-friendly places where even kids with "disabilities"(I hate that term) aren't as likely to elicit as many "looks".

But what about when that person is an adult? It's not so easy.

 

[FrayedKnot]

I think salon owner handled it inappropriately if she was yelling at the child and mom. I wish there was video footage.

I agree. I mean REALLY! Who DOES that?

 

[especiallyheather]

But generally speaking if you are in a restaurant, say, how would you know if the child is autistic? Do you go up to the table and ask the parents? I don't think I could do that. And does that mean that other patrons should be less disrupted by the screaming of an autistic child than that of a "typical" child?

Even if you understand that the child cannot help it, it doesn't make it any less unpleasant when you are paying to have a nice experience.

Again, I don't know what the right answer is, but I do believe that those other patrons in my example should have the right to enjoy their meals without screaming.

BR Yes, I have always appreciated when someone came up to me and asked, or at the very least did not make any disparaging comments or faces.. Also, you can read the parents faces, if they are trying frantically to calm the situation, you know the child has issues.

BB Again, imagine being the child... would you suggest that I just keep her at home like an animal. What is your solution?

BR So let me get this straight, you are looking out for grown adults who have the ability to process and understand, yet you over look the innocent autistic child who doesn't have a clue that they are being disruptive? My autistic daughter has the same rights as the grown adults in any situation, period. It is my job to make sure she is well content and taken care of, but it is virtually impossible to do 100% of the time with an autistic child.

I am not trying to attack you, but mental disorders like autism are so misunderstood, and there is not a simple fix for these kids.

Again, try being the child and the parent.

 

[ArianeEmory]

(Snipped for space)

My autistic daughter has the same rights as the grown adults in any situation, period.

I don't exactly follow this line of reasoning because as an adult, presumably with whatever nebulous 'rights' we're referring to, I would not be permitted to scream at the top of my lungs in the middle of a restaurant.

I'm not trying to come across as heartless here, really I'm not, but it does seem the argument is being made that I actually have less rights than an autistic child, an autistic adult, or the parents of same, because I do not have the right to a meal in relative peace, regardless of the venue type. Is that pretty much the gist?

And it's a far cry between arguing that at least a few places should be able to be a haven for relaxation for adults, and demanding that people keep their children at home 'like animals'. There are about a thousand things to do in the world where noise is not really an issue. Elevating the issue to this level of straw-man argument doesn't help anyone reach the center. No one said anything about keeping your kids at home like animals. Heck, I don't even care if they scream in the mall--I can always go to another store.

 

[killarney rose]

(Snipped for space)



I don't exactly follow this line of reasoning because as an adult, presumably with whatever nebulous 'rights' we're referring to, I would not be permitted to scream at the top of my lungs in the middle of a restaurant.

I'm not trying to come across as heartless here, really I'm not, but it does seem the argument is being made that I actually have less rights than an autistic child, an autistic adult, or the parents of same, because I do not have the right to a meal in relative peace, regardless of the venue type. Is that pretty much the gist?

And it's a far cry between arguing that at least a few places should be able to be a haven for relaxation for adults, and demanding that people keep their children at home 'like animals'. There are about a thousand things to do in the world where noise is not really an issue. Elevating the issue to this level of straw-man argument doesn't help anyone reach the center. No one said anything about keeping your kids at home like animals. Heck, I don't even care if they scream in the mall--I can always go to another store.

I couldnt have said it better myself! If as a parent of an ustistic child you know that child is probably going to have a meltdown and disturb others, then it has nothing to do with your childs rights, or your rights, and everything to do with common courtesy for others! I dont go out to eat often. And on those occaisions when i do, i do not appreciate having the time ruined by a screaming child. It matters not whether the child is autistic, or just undisciplined. The noise and effect of the noise is the same.and those dirty looks im sending to your table? They arent directed at your child, but at you, for being rude enough to allow this to happen because it is Your right and your childs right, thereby ruining the evening of everyone within screaming distance and nullifying their rights!

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I'm kind of having a difficult time with so much emphasis being put on the child being autistic. The child was 2 and many 2 year olds behave the same way. When a two year old has a temper tantrum or cries in public there isn't a whole lot a parent can do but remove the child from the situation or wait it out.

Would the owners behavior been any less inappropriate had the two year old not been autistic?

 

[looneymama]

I believe that kids should be able to be kids, but just because I believe that, it doesn't mean the world revolves around me and my kids. I take my kids to kid friendly places. It has absolutely nothing to do with their rights, I do it because I know they would be miserable if I were to take them somewhere that wasn't kid friendly. If they are miserable, I am and if they get loud and cause a scene, we leave. That's my rule, no matter where we are. If you cause a scene, you must be tired or over stimulated and it is time to go home. My children are not autistic, so its not the same, but my son does have ADHD and sensory issues so he does struggle with sitting still and being quiet. Knowing that, I don't often bring my kids to places that require that. Why spend lots of money on a fancy meal I can't enjoy because I'm trying to keep my kids entertained and chilled out? Why should the people around us who might be celebrating something special and aren't able to afford things like that often have to listen to my kid having a meltdown?

There are some places that don't just sell a service, they sell an experience. You are paying for that relaxation at the spa like places or the quiet intimate dining experiences. Who am I to say that all of these people who decided to take their hard earned money and pay for those experiences should just deal with my son having a sensory overload meltdown? The world does not revolve around me or my son, disability or not. I take them to places I feel are a good fit, because when we go to places that aren't, no one has fun.

That doesn't mean I think it was okay for this chick to yell at an autistic toddler and her mother. That was definitely not okay. I do however think there are cooler places for kids to get their hair cut. There are places that have silly chairs and cartoons and all kinds of fun things to make them feel more comfortable...and they know how to deal with scared kids. A good fit.

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[especiallyheather]

I don't exactly follow this line of reasoning because as an adult, presumably with whatever nebulous 'rights' we're referring to, I would not be permitted to scream at the top of my lungs in the middle of a restaurant.

You do understand that they do not know any better, don't you? Whether they are kids or adults, they have a mental issue that is far beyond "normal". You are normal, therefore you would not scream at the top of your lungs... they are have a disability, therefore they do not understand that they are not allowed to be loud "in certain places". Heck, Emma didn't know where she was half of the time... she would scream where ever she went, that is her normal. If you (in general) glared at me or made a rude comment while my daughter was screaming, I would walk up to you and tell you that she doesn't have an inside voice so we can not keep her quiet.

It is my opinion that the "normal" people should be understanding of the disabled, where ever they are.

I'm not trying to come across as heartless here, really I'm not, but it does seem the argument is being made that I actually have less rights than an autistic child, an autistic adult, or the parents of same, because I do not have the right to a meal in relative peace, regardless of the venue type. Is that pretty much the gist?

Again, mentally disabled people have the same rights as non mentally disabled people- and vice versa.

And it's a far cry between arguing that at least a few places should be able to be a haven for relaxation for adults, and demanding that people keep their children at home 'like animals'. There are about a thousand things to do in the world where noise is not really an issue. Elevating the issue to this level of straw-man argument doesn't help anyone reach the center. No one said anything about keeping your kids at home like animals. Heck, I don't even care if they scream in the mall--I can always go to another store.

But in essence, that is what people are saying. Let me give you an example:

My husband and I took our 9 year old autistic daughter into a nice sit down restaurant. We brought her favorite books and crayons in order to keep her quiet and calm, because we knew these would soothe her. The waitress comes over and hands my daughter the stores coloring books. I politely said that Emma was autistic and would make a scene if they tried to take it away from her when we leave. Her exact words "I will get them back, trust me' wont I" and smiled at Emma. Emma had the neurological function of a 2 year old. When we were finished with our meal she proceeded to take them from my daughter, and what do you think happened? Emma had a major fit on the floor in the middle of the restaurant. She would not move. I proceeded to take my leg and arm flailing child out the door avoiding the glares along the way. When my husband came to the car, he told me that our waiter actually said OUT LOUD and I quote "I would not take that child in public anymore, autism or not, she behaved like an animal."

That is just one example.. I have many more. And I assume most parents of autistic children could share tons of stories of their own.

So you see, parents of autistic children are made to feel that we should keep our children at home like animals. Our children are made to feel like they are not allowed the same rights as everyone else. I am not saying that everyone treats them that way, but there is a HUGE lack of knowledge for so many that do. We are made, as parents, to feel like we have done something wrong, when really all we are trying to do is make it day to day.

I couldnt have said it better myself! If as a parent of an ustistic child you know that child is probably going to have a meltdown and disturb others, then it has nothing to do with your childs rights, or your rights, and everything to do with common courtesy for others! I dont go out to eat often. And on those occaisions when i do, i do not appreciate having the time ruined by a screaming child. It matters not whether the child is autistic, or just undisciplined. The noise and effect of the noise is the same.and those dirty looks im sending to your table? They arent directed at your child, but at you, for being rude enough to allow this to happen because it is Your right and your childs right, thereby ruining the evening of everyone within screaming distance and nullifying their rights!

The simple fact that you do not understand that as parents of an autistic child, we do not know when they are going to "have a meltdown and disturb others" speaks volumes to me.

I am not trying to be rude. I am not trying to be harsh. If you could see my heart you would understand the tone behind these words. Once you have had a mentally handicapped child, you have more compassion for those kids that scream because you do not know their issues. Instead of glaring at the parents, why not smile at them. Believe me, if you could see their hearts you would know they are just doing the best that they can with what they have been given. Your smile could be the one that makes their day worth while.

But for the grace of God, you could be in their shoes. And with that, I bid you adieu...This topic is triggering me in ways that I cannot describe. :hiding:

 

[momrids6]

The mother went back in and had her hair colored and styled. This says more to me than the actions of the owner.

 

[looneymama]

EspeciallyHeather, it sounds like you were really trying to do everything you could to have a good evening at that restaurant. That was the server's fault, not yours. That comment the other employee made was clearly from ignorance, but I suppose no less hurtful.



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[jandkmom]

IMO the owner doesn't sound like she handled the situation very well at all. She should have been calmer and not rude to the mom and child. If she was worried about the customers in the spa being upset, she should have spoken to them and offered them a return visit. I don't have an autistic child, so I can't speak to their special needs. I did raise my two children and have been embarrassed by the regular toddler melt downs, so on a small way I can empathize with the mom. I remember taking my child out of restaurants so not to disturb other customers. I remember being so embarrassed. Now when I am out and see a child acting up, if the parents are trying to help, I feel their pain. That being said, I feel bad for children that are having meltdowns and the parents are obvivious to the child. That doesn't appear to be the situation here as mom was trying to calm and apologizing. Great job by the stylus to try and finish up outside. I don't know how the mom stayed for her appointment. I would have left and never returned. I hope the mom calls around and finds a salon that either specializes with children or finds someone that can work with a child with autism. I also hope the owner learns from this experience.

 

[Confusion]

I don't really think that the autism is much of a factor in this case - almost all kids that age are prone to fits now and then if they're tired, not feeling well, bored or any number of other things. I was lucky enough to have a sister who was a hair stylist with her own shop when my sons were young so it wasn't an issue for me (I cut their hair myself before she opened her shop.) If that kind of behavior was so unacceptable at that place, I don't think they should allow appointments with kids at all.

Restaurants, on the other hand, are a different story. My son has high functioning Autism/Asperger's (I was told he meets the criteria for both, but I thought they were the same thing.) He had a very hard time being quiet or still, and was prone to tantrums for many years, but I wanted him to grow up being able to function in society as much as possible. I tried very hard not to allow behavior from him that wouldn't be acceptable from anyone else - for the first 5 years of his life, I think we spent more time standing outside restaurants waiting for him to calm down than we did eating. I also went without so much as a one day break from taking care of him until he was in kindergarten. I don't give dirty looks or make rude comments when I'm around kids acting that way in public, but I definitely don't enjoy it. When I finally had time away from my own sons, the last thing I wanted was to sit and listen to someone else's child having a meltdown.

My son is 30 now, and stopped having tantrums many years ago, so I'm a lot less bothered by it now, but I still don't believe that just giving excuses and letting a kid scream is doing him/her any favors. Sooner or later it has to be controlled or there will be bigger problems. I know most parents do try to calm their kids when it happens, but I've seen many who don't. I have to agree with those who say that a child (with or without a disability) who can't follow societal norms should probably not be taken to places that are normally for predominately adults. At the same time, I don't think anyone should complain about a 2-3 year old throwing a tantrum in McDonald's, Denny's or similar type places that do cater to families. MOO

 

[looneymama]

I don't really think that the autism is much of a factor in this case - almost all kids that age are prone to fits now and then if they're tired, not feeling well, bored or any number of other things. I was lucky enough to have a sister who was a hair stylist with her own shop when my sons were young so it wasn't an issue for me (I cut their hair myself before she opened her shop.) If that kind of behavior was so unacceptable at that place, I don't think they should allow appointments with kids at all.

Restaurants, on the other hand, are a different story. My son has high functioning Autism/Asperger's (I was told he meets the criteria for both, but I thought they were the same thing.) He had a very hard time being quiet or still, and was prone to tantrums for many years, but I wanted him to grow up being able to function in society as much as possible. I tried very hard not to allow behavior from him that wouldn't be acceptable from anyone else - for the first 5 years of his life, I think we spent more time standing outside restaurants waiting for him to calm down than we did eating. I also went without so much as a one day break from taking care of him until he was in kindergarten. I don't give dirty looks or make rude comments when I'm around kids acting that way in public, but I definitely don't enjoy it. When I finally had time away from my own sons, the last thing I wanted was to sit and listen to someone else's child having a meltdown.

My son is 30 now, and stopped having tantrums many years ago, so I'm a lot less bothered by it now, but I still don't believe that just giving excuses and letting a kid scream is doing him/her any favors. Sooner or later it has to be controlled or there will be bigger problems. I know most parents do try to calm their kids when it happens, but I've seen many who don't. I have to agree with those who say that a child (with or without a disability) who can't follow societal norms should probably not be taken to places that are normally for predominately adults. At the same time, I don't think anyone should complain about a 2-3 year old throwing a tantrum in McDonald's, Denny's or similar type places that do cater to families. MOO

I absolutely agree. I don't take my kids to places that would make all of us miserable, so I'd appreciate it if people would not give me mean looks if I'm letting my kids be kids at family friendly places.

I also think that when it comes to a two year old, they are two! Meltdowns happen and despite what many say, three is even worse IMO!



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