John and Patsy's thoughts

Were John and Patsy incapable of having thoughts of anger, lust, greed, and jealousy?

  • yes

    Votes: 13 15.5%
  • no

    Votes: 71 84.5%

  • Total voters
    84
for sure,Deedee,and Patsy even taunted LE,getting right in their face when answering the questions,and admittedly she said things like 'so tell me,what makes you think I killed my precious baby???!!' ..I mean,comon' now...that is NOT the behavior of an innocent parent! An innocent parent would want to help LE,not taunt them!
 
Were John and Patsy incapable of having any thoughts of anger, lust, greed, and jealousy?


-Tea

LOL how can you ask that question ?

Just look at what Patsy put JonBenet through with all her primping and preening for emmmm Beauty Pageants..

Lust Greed and Jealousy were definitely there and probably anger if JB didn't win ! or some other little NOBODY did win !

Funny Question
 
LOL how can you ask that question ?

Just look at what Patsy put JonBenet through with all her primping and preening for emmmm Beauty Pageants..

Lust Greed and Jealousy were definitely there and probably anger if JB didn't win ! or some other little NOBODY did win !

Funny Question
On the contrary, I think it is a rather thought provoking question, which was primarily directed towards the IDIs of this forum. Let me ask you "Do you think that someone such as the Dalai Lama is incapable of these thoughts?"


-Tea
 
On the contrary, I think it is a rather thought provoking question, which was primarily directed towards the IDIs of this forum. Let me ask you "Do you think that someone such as the Dalai Lama is incapable of these thoughts?"


-Tea

Now I did preface it with a lol so as to say I wasnt attacking you for your opinion as such...

What is a IDI ? is that IDK ? I don't knows ?

Anyway to answer you about the Dalai Lama...No one is inacapable of these thoughts..no one....but its whether they would act upon those thoughts is the real question...
 
Now I did preface it with a lol so as to say I wasnt attacking you for your opinion as such...

What is a IDI ? is that IDK ? I don't knows ?

Anyway to answer you about the Dalai Lama...No one is inacapable of these thoughts..no one....but its whether they would act upon those thoughts is the real question...

IDI means Intruder Did It. "I don't knows" are referred to as FS, fence-sitters. And icedtea4me was hitting out at the tendency of IDIs to portray the Rs as saints.
 
Big jump from the ego boosting some parents need and demand in the accomplishments of their children to the Dalai Lama's expression of his humanity.

IceTea, however, is always refreshing.



'violent fantasy' (within the IDI scenario) .....

I watch "Cold Case" and some other AE crime shows and the offender often describes experiencing violent fantasies, how fantasy preeceeds the abduction or how the enactment of violence is a release from the stress of the fantasies.

Its stiking, IMO, the differce/discrepencies between the JBR Ramsey crime scene and that of other kidnapping, assault, murder cases .....

still trying to get my head around it ..... how the IDI scenario lends itself to create a perp whose handwriting is quite similar to PR's, or a perp who is a competent forger using a sharpie marker....
 
Its stiking, IMO, the differce/discrepencies between the JBR Ramsey crime scene and that of other kidnapping, assault, murder cases .....

Isn't it, though?

still trying to get my head around it ..... how the IDI scenario lends itself to create a perp whose handwriting is quite similar to PR's, or a perp who is a competent forger using a sharpie marker....

As a former IDI myself, it's easier than it sounds.
 
Isn't it, though?



As a former IDI myself, it's easier than it sounds.

WHOA what ? really wow ? what changed your way of thinking /
Mind you years back when I watched that perfect murder perfect town soap opera movie I was convinced that the parents didnt do it

Im not sure really who I suspected at the time... possibly the boy and they covered it up..

Maybe I did think a IDI but thats not strong in my memory bank..

But there is no way that I believe a IDI these past months since refreshing myself with the facts of the case.

My money is on PR in a rage attack and then a big ole cover up with both parents
 
WHOA what ? really wow ? what changed your way of thinking /
Mind you years back when I watched that perfect murder perfect town soap opera movie I was convinced that the parents didnt do it

Im not sure really who I suspected at the time... possibly the boy and they covered it up..

Maybe I did think a IDI but thats not strong in my memory bank..

But there is no way that I believe a IDI these past months since refreshing myself with the facts of the case.

My money is on PR in a rage attack and then a big ole cover up with both parents

My money is on that too!
 
WHOA what ? really wow ? what changed your way of thinking /

That is a LONG Story! It takes up a whole chapter in the book. So to boil it down, it didn't happen all at once. It wasn't a "St. Paul-on-the road-to-Damascus" conversion. The first chinks in my armor appeared during the now-legendary face-off between the Ramseys and Det. Thomas on Larry King Live in May of 2000. It was a massacre. I saw the Ramseys for what they really were: manipulative narcissists who throw a hissy fit whenever anyone stands up to them. They refused to let Thomas make his points, and their behavior was troubling. Patsy had clearly been "preparing" for the confrontation, because she was clearly impaired through the use of some kind of drug. She was swaying, slurring her words, and could barely sit up straight. I really don't mean to be so hard on her, but why she agreed to it in the first place is beyond me. The most precious moment came when Patsy touched Thomas's arm, saying what a good guy he could be and telling him they needed to work together to find the "real killer," as she pushed her breasts in his face, trying to seduce him, I guess. Meanwhile, John was sitting there the whole time smiling, which I later likened to the Emperor in Star Wars. He laughed at the most inappropriate things, compared JonBenet's death to killing a dog, and threatened to walk off the set when Thomas mentioned the findings of the sexual abuse experts. Clearly, Thomas got to him.
As the show ended, I was in something of a state of shock. All I could think was "whose idea was this, anyway?" I guess I wasn't the only one, either.
Two days later, H. Ellis Armistead, the head private investigator working for the Ramseys, quit. He cited "events taking place in the media," and implied that they were getting bad advice from their new lawyers, whom he did not get along with.

In the summer of that same year, the Ramseys, to hear them tell it, had another uninvited guest at their Atlanta home. Supposedly, while no one was home, a thief broke in. John allegedly came home and caught this guy in th act. His description of the "thief" was right out of the Susan Smith playbook: a well-dressed, soft-spoken, light-skinned black man (hereafter known as Hyphen Man!). John's narrative included such stirring scenes of John locking himself in the bathroom screaming like a girl and the "thief" leaving without stealing anything really valuable. The only thing he took was Patsy's least expensive jewelry. This is the kicker: when asked by the local cops how the "thief" got in, John said he left the door unlocked. It was a count of about 1...2...3 and I started SCREAMING at the TV set. WHAT?! My god! His kid's supposedly been murdered right under his nose because he couldn't be bothered to turn on his burglar alarm, and you're telling me that he'd just leave the door open for anyone to just waltz in?! Especially given his earlier interviews where he said he wanted to live in a fortress for the rest of his life? As you can gather, clearly I don't believe this "thief" ever existed. I guess the Georgia cops didn't either, because he was never found. No one even remotely matching the description was ever nailed. As for the jewelry angle, I think (and keep in mind that I have no real evidence for this, just a gut feeling) that John himself got rid of it because he was afraid that the Boulder police might try to match it to the marks on JB's body. (This was right around the time when the "stungun" theory was under heavy challenge. Werner Spitz and Cyril Wecht were on tv claiming the marks were left by an object with prongs on it.)

One year after the Larry King incident, the chink in the armor became a huge dent. Lou Smit was doing what can only be likened to a traveling medicine show trying to prove his theory of an intruder. One of his points involved a demonstration of how he thought the intruder entered the house through a broken window that John Ramsey and Fleet White saw that morning. In Smit's scenario, the intruder had to lift up the grate, step in, and slide through. Now, there are a few things wrong with this. First, no footprints were found in the dirt at all. Second, to avoid wiping the dirt off with his butt, the intruder would have to go in all at once, like a gymnast on the uneven parallel bars. That could not have happened. The window doesn't open all the way. It can only open part way out because of a pipe. Smit is a skinny man, and was wearing no winter clothing when he demonstrated his scenario. Yet, he could only do it by dropping into the well, squatting, sticking his legs in, sliding around on his butt, and slipping in, during which he completely obliterated the dirt and leaves in the well. It just doesn't work. Steve Thomas said that he and several other detectives did this and they couldn't do it either. Worse than that, he claimed the intruder left the same way, climbing up onto a suitcase under the window and climbing out. His way out was even worse. To start with, the suitcase was not under the window when Fleet White found it. He moved it there. No hand prints were found in the well, and no fibers were snagged on the frame. And he was supposed to have done this in the dark. This man had just shown me that the theory I subscribed to could not have happened. I respected this man. That would change, as well. I'm a regular guy. I believe my own eyes, and I can't not see what my eyes see. I don't have a "stupid" button that I can push to get stupid. It was a shaking experience to say the very least.

That November, John and Patsy Ramsey were deposed in a civil lawsuit. Two things came out of their sworn testimony that turned the chinks into huge dents. First, a chart was produced containing side-by-side comparisons of Patsy's handwriting to the handwriting on the ransom letter. It was shocking, to put it mildly. The second thing came during John's deposition, where he finally confessed that he had been lying for some time. He had always claimed that he had hired private investigators to follow up on leads the police wouldn't because, supposedly, they were too caught up trying to pin it on the Ramseys. In his deposition, he stated that the private eyes were only to help build a defense against any future prosecution against them. "To keep us out of jail," he said. John seemed as committed to finding the real killer as OJ Simpson. And on that note, it didn't help that those same private eyes were caught with their hands in the cookie jar earlier in the year. Tom Miller, a lawyer and court-approved handwriting expert, had gone to trial in July for allegedly trying to buy a copy of the ransom letter illegally. He had been tricked into a setup by a tabloid reporter. He was arrested and approached with a deal: the charges would be dropped if he were to surrender his law license and repudiate his own handwriting credentials. No self-respecting man in his position would take that deal. So, he went to trial in July 2001. At his trial, it came out that David L. Miller, a private investigator working for the Ramseys, had been working behind the scenes to dig up dirt on Tom Miller to use against him if he were ever called to testify against Patsy at trial. David L. Miller admitted this on the stand. He admitted that because Tom Miller had decided that Patsy had written the letter, he had to be taken down. He also admitted that his boss, Ramsey lawyer Hal Haddon, had asked his old buddy, Dave Thomas, the county prosecutor who went after Tom Miller, for a favor. It was a shameful incident of legal circle-jerking that was exposed in court. I'm reminded of Boris Karloff's line in "The Body Snatcher:" "I stood in that witness box and took what should have been coming to you."

Finally, in 2002, the dents became large holes. That year, American television screens were full of the faces of kidnapping victims, whose names we still remember to this day: Danielle Van Dam, Samantha Runnion, and Elizabeth Smart (who was returned safely, thank the gods). And of all of those little girls who were murdered, not one of them even remotely resembled what happened to JonBenet. For years, Team Ramsey told us that JonBenet was killed by some pedophile killer, and we were forced to see what real pedophile killers do: they don't kill their victims inside the home, they don't redress their victims, and they dump their victims after killing them. Lin Wood, the Ramsey lawyer, had the unmitigated gall to co-opt the pain these families were in to push his clients' wild claim. Well, he didn't get away with it. Nancy Grace, the tough-as-nails Southern hellcat prosecutor was on that Larry King show that night, as was Marc Klaas, who has been a tireless advocate for laws to protect children from predators ever since his daughter Polly was kidnapped from her bedroom and murdered by a career criminal who had just gotten paroled for the umpteenth time in 1993. And they didn't go for it. Nancy pointed out how different JonBenet's killing was from those other cases, and Klaas, who is in a unique position to understand just what an insult Wood was committing to the memories of the victims' families, really went to town, reminding the audience that, like the Ramseys claim they have, David Westerfield, the killer of little Danielle Van Dam, also had no history of violent or deviant behavior. He also noted the tendency the Ramseys and Wood have for threatening lawsuits against anyone who questions their version of what happened. And it was in that moment that I saw just what kind of people the Ramseys associate themselves with to destroy their enemies. Wood, this backwoods John Edwards-with-a-mean-streak redneck lawyer, sat there with his trademark "don't-(Expletive deleted)-with-me-punk" grin and said that no one should be intimidated by the facts, and if you don't know about the case, don't talk about it. The heated sibilance in his voice made his polite words poisonous with very thinly-veiled threats and cruel mockery. I couldn't believe it. This man, supposedly an advocate for his "victim" clients, had just threatened a genuine victim's advocate. What's worse, Internet "sleuths" who genuflected every time John or Patsy Ramsey so much as sneezed (similar to what the media does with [name deleted here]), were absolutely butchering the Van Dam family in the same way they claimed the Ramseys were being attacked (which was nowhere near as vicious). It didn't help the cause that on that night, I caught a rerun of the Comedy Central Show "South Park." In it, the Ramseys are ruthlessly parodied (along with OJ Simpson) and told to "stop acting like victims and confess, you (Expletive deleted) murdering murderers!"
By August of 2002, I was clearly in the camp of the people who say the Ramseys were involved. I had seen them for what they really were. The masks had fallen away, and the true faces were horrible to see. My father used to tell me, "always keep an open mind, just not so open that your brain falls out."

My money is on PR in a rage attack and then a big ole cover up with both parents

Sometimes I wonder.
 
I wonder sometimes too,and that was awesome,just awesome,SD.Worthy of a standing ovation, if I could give one here. ::clapping::
 
...one thing that stood out to me when I read that was that if it had been a REAL thief (intruder,whatever you want to call it..),you'd think John would have been worried that it could have been just a guise for LE to leave a bug in the house,since a fake robbery is sometimes used to plant a bug.But I hadn't thought about the jewelry,and now that we know the prongs could have been from Patsy's rings,that makes a lot of sense that John would fake a robbery of some of Patsy's jewelry.Too bad they can't do touch dna on Patsy's rings now.
As far as a bug being in the house,all we have of either of them,(if I recall correctly),being concerned about that is Patsy making excuses ahead of time in DOI,when she talks about Susan Stine putting a white noise machine in their room.(Which makes me think even more that the Stines were involved somehow....),esp. with SS crawling the web every day back then,seeing what ppl were saying,wanting to know what ppl they knew thought,etc...but I guess that would be for a whole other thread in itself!
 
I read a while ago about pics found in the laundry room...does anyone know what that is about? I got the feeling the police found pictures of JB but Patsy had no idea what was up...they questioned her about that for a reason but I'm not sure why??
 
Much obliged to you, JMO. I didn't intend for it to go that long.

JaneInOz, when I say sometimes I wonder, I mean that sometimes I think it wasn't PR, but JR. Which exactly why the two were never brought to trial: the prosecutors could never decide which one was the actual killer because they're both good for i.

...one thing that stood out to me when I read that was that if it had been a REAL thief (intruder,whatever you want to call it..),you'd think John would have been worried that it could have been just a guise for LE to leave a bug in the house,since a fake robbery is sometimes used to plant a bug.

You know, that thought has been on my mind for a few weeks now. I remember Thomas talking about a plan to bug the Ramseys' house. The plan was that the cops would watch the house, wait until everyone was gone, then sneak in and plant the bugs. If someone happened to come in and catch them, they would grab something to make it look like an interrupted burglary. Then this happens. But it doesn't track. Granted, I'm the first to admit that I don't believe in coincidences, but I just don't buy it.

But I hadn't thought about the jewelry,and now that we know the prongs could have been from Patsy's rings,that makes a lot of sense that John would fake a robbery of some of Patsy's jewelry.Too bad they can't do touch dna on Patsy's rings now.

My best guess is that Patsy was buried with the rings on. That's typical for funerals, lest anyone think I'm accusing anyone of anything.

As far as a bug being in the house,all we have of either of them,(if I recall correctly),being concerned about that is Patsy making excuses ahead of time in DOI,when she talks about Susan Stine putting a white noise machine in their room.(Which makes me think even more that the Stines were involved somehow....),esp. with SS crawling the web every day back then,seeing what ppl were saying,wanting to know what ppl they knew thought,etc...but I guess that would be for a whole other thread in itself!

A white noise machine is usually used for relaxation, something Patsy would probably have needed. But the fact that it helps distort electronic listening devices is icing on the cake. As I say in the book, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Ramseys had the DA's office bugged!

Gingbreade, I'll get back to you.
 
I've always been suspicious about the S's. Their absence that morning, for one. And the behavior of SS has always been above and beyond what friendship would expect. One of the most logical explanations for it is that BR and the S's son were somehow involved. That would explain a lot about her rabid behavior regarding the aftermath of the crime. And it explains her very conspicuous absence that morning.
 
Ok now I am a bit lost who are the S's (these are not the people next door right)
 
I've always been suspicious about the S's. Their absence that morning, for one. And the behavior of SS has always been above and beyond what friendship would expect. One of the most logical explanations for it is that BR and the S's son were somehow involved. That would explain a lot about her rabid behavior regarding the aftermath of the crime. And it explains her very conspicuous absence that morning.
I've wondered that,too.And if the R's were worried they'd been bugged at the Stine's,then my thought is that perhaps they had good reason to worry,and not just for themselves,but for the S's as well,and the crime as a whole.
SS being labeled a pitbull for the R's shows a she knows a lot more than she's saying,IMO.Why else bother?Seems she was afraid ppl would talk,and probably afraid Patsy would talk,in her highly medicated state.She sounded wayyy too overprotective of them.
 
Ok now I am a bit lost who are the S's (these are not the people next door right)
right,they were friends of the R's,and according to them,the last ppl to see JB alive on Christmas night.(Yet,the R's didn't bother to call them the next morning,to confirm that with LE).The R's said they dropped a gift basket off at their house on the way home,and SS says that was the last time she saw them as an intact family.(Yet they claim JB was asleep in the car..then how did she see the all together then??).Her comment doesn't add up...sounds like they all went in and stayed awhile,to me.Which makes sense that they would have wanted to see them,since they were all good friends,and the R's left the White's fairly early,according to FW.(although they claim they left later then what he said).Or maybe even the S's came over to their house after they returned form the White's?? It is also possible the S's son came home w them,perhaps planning on going w them on the trip the next day.
I've wondered if something happened there,but then the pineapple doesn't add up to that.
SS is the one who answered the intercom at the R's party on the 23rd,*without ever opening the door to LE,when the suspicious 911 hang-up call came from the R's...the same night JB was found crying on the stairs and saying she 'didn't feel pretty'.Sounds to me like SS knew something was amiss.
 
Much obliged to you, JMO. I didn't intend for it to go that long.

JaneInOz, when I say sometimes I wonder, I mean that sometimes I think it wasn't PR, but JR. Which exactly why the two were never brought to trial: the prosecutors could never decide which one was the actual killer because they're both good for i.



You know, that thought has been on my mind for a few weeks now. I remember Thomas talking about a plan to bug the Ramseys' house. The plan was that the cops would watch the house, wait until everyone was gone, then sneak in and plant the bugs. If someone happened to come in and catch them, they would grab something to make it look like an interrupted burglary. Then this happens. But it doesn't track. Granted, I'm the first to admit that I don't believe in coincidences, but I just don't buy it.



My best guess is that Patsy was buried with the rings on. That's typical for funerals, lest anyone think I'm accusing anyone of anything.



A white noise machine is usually used for relaxation, something Patsy would probably have needed. But the fact that it helps distort electronic listening devices is icing on the cake. As I say in the book, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the Ramseys had the DA's office bugged!

Gingbreade, I'll get back to you.
thanks,and that wouldn't surprise me,either !
 

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