John Ramsey's New Book

It is unfortunate that the house was released by LE as soon as it was. There was much evidence to be found. Maybe we'd know where she was first attacked. I feel she died in the basement, because I agree that is where the garrote was made and placed on her.
About the fibers, though...JR's dark wool shirt fibers were found in the crotch of her panties, but I wasn't aware they had been stated to be found on her genitals. I realize that would make sense. I also know that "dark fibers" were found on her thighs and pubic area (the vulva/genitals) but I thought that was identified as dark cotton fibers, not the wool fibers of the shirt. JR owned a dark blue terrycloth bathrobe, which was found in the den. (an odd place for a bathrobe). I never saw where the dark cotton fibers from were ever tested against that terry robe or against any towels in the home or against the black comforter found stuffed into the suitcase. So much was left untested.

You may be right about the dark fibers and JR's shirt fibers, DeeDee.

I was "thinking" that JR's shirt fibers were found on her genitals, but I'll have to look it up now that you've pinned me down. I've read so much on this case, though, over so many years, I do get confused. I'll see if I can find the shirt info, which I believe was in the transcript of JR's interview in Atlanta in 2000.

I do remember that Smit said the fibers from the duvet in the suitcase matched the fibers on JonBenet, now that you bring that up. There was some disagreement between the CBI and the FBI, wasn't there? Seems like the FBI attributed them to one source, but the CBI another?

Okay, now I'm really confused. Cynic! SuperDave! Whynut! Help! I know y'all know the details of evidence here. :waitasec:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit: Went to a transcript of the 2000 Atlanta interviews of LE with the Ramseys and the statement is exactly as you remember it, DeeDee. To Patsy and John they asked why fibers from John's black shirt would be in the "underpants" of JonBenet. They also used the word "crotch," which is probably why I rolled that into the wiping of the genitals.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4666"]Patsy Ramsey & John Ramsey - BPD Interviews (Atlanta) - August 28, 2000 - Forums For Justice[/ame]


Now I'm going to hunt for the source of Smit's contention that dark fibers found...on the genitals?...were matched to the suitcase duvet: I remember this because the black duvet, from JAR's bedclothes, was found in JAR's suitcase downstairs under the broken basement window along with a children's Dr. Seuss book, also had JAR's semen on it, which caused a lot of debate. I still believe if this is completely unrelated to the murder or molestation, using the suitcase in the staging at least forever put JAR further into the mystery.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back again, and I found some answers...or more accurately, the questions...about the various attributions of fibers to the body and clothing. Cynic, of course, defined the problems here for us, since there has never been a trial to sort it out under testimony with the actual evidence presented:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6296096&highlight=fibers#post6296096


* Fibers inside suitcase consistent with fibers on JonBenet

Not necessarily.

While AJ is content to talk about fiber evidence which is questionable enough to cause a dispute between two labs, there is no mention of other fiber evidence, such as the following:
Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is our belief based on forensic evidence that there are hairs that are associated, that the source is the collared black shirt that you sent us that are found in your daughter's underpants, and I wondered if you –
A. B******t. I don't believe that. I don't buy it. If you are trying to disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
John Ramsey, 2000 Interview

Q. And CBI had at one point come up with a conclusion that there was a consistency between fibers found on a blanket in the suitcase that matched fibers on JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is that the right term?
A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever offer a report or an explanation concerning that.
Q. But the FBI disagreed with the CBI, didn't they?
Steve Thomas Deposition (Wolf civil case)

Q. Was the conflict between the CBI report and the FBI report with respect to those fibers, the fibers that are described here found on the front and back of JonBenet's shirt, on her body in the vaginal area, the duct tape on her mouth, and the hand ligature, to your knowledge, was that conflict ever resolved while you were involved in the investigation?
A. No.
Lou Smit Deposition (Wolf civil case)

FBI analysis: FBI examiners said the fibers on JonBenet came from a source other than the pillow sham and comforter
Rocky Mountain News, May 4, 2001
 
It's just too hard for us who are within some range of "normal" when it comes to parenting, isn't it?

So I return to the evidence, like most people here:

Blood from JB's nose was found on the pillowcase on her bed by LE: see the 1998 LE interview with Patsy.

Because of this, I am fairly sure this means her head was bludgeoned in or near her room, or at least on the 2nd floor.

The garrote cord was tied onto the child's neck, but I have not seen any unquestionable source with evidence proving exactly where that was done. Since it was tied in the back of the neck, and since she was laid on her stomach by the paint tray (carpet fiber from the basement and a paint chip matched to paint from the paint tray were found on her chin at autopsy), it's possible the cord was tied onto her neck by the paint tray in the basement, as well.

The paintbrush was inserted into her vagina, as the birefringent material found indicates. That paintbrush was broken beside the paint tray, as slivers of it were found on the carpet there. So one can argue she was brought downstairs unconscious from the head blow, laid on her back, undressed, paintbrush from paint tray inserted, then she was wiped down, redressed, and turned over, a cord tied on her neck at this time, the paintbrush broken and tied onto the cord, both as she was lying on her stomach. Then the "handle" was pulled from behind/over her. I'm assuming, of course, that she was wiped down and redressed before she was turned over because her bladder released onto the front of her long johns and onto the basement carpet by the cellar door when she expired, or that's what Lou Smit said.

Then her body was moved into the cellar room, laid on a blanket which was wrapped around her "papoose style"--you can see a similar picture of just such a wrapping around her while she was a baby in John's arms in one of the books on this case--maybe the Ramsey's?

At some point during this staging, the cord was tied to her wrists, and the duct tape was put on her mouth.

This is the best I've been able to piece this murder together from the evidence I've read about or seen on TV programs, etc., and this is always second-hand/third-or-more-hand, many times repeated, so I could be wrong about much of this, I must say.

One thing I do believe: if JonBenet's blood from her nose found on the pillowcase is truly a fact in evidence and came from drainage from the head blow, then not-quite-10 year old Burke was probably not capable of carrying his sister's limp 45 lbs. to the basement by himself. I think this is reasonable speculation because during the 1998 LE interview with her, Patsy and Haney determined a timeline of a few days before the murder since JB's sheets had been changed; so it's likely that nosebleed happened in that time period, when Patsy herself said she had no knowledge of JB having a nosebleed (though Patsy tried to equivocate the blood drops by saying JB picked her nose).

I believe a lot of terrible things about Patsy and John, but I don't believe they'd have carried their dying child to the basement and had Burke accompany them to participate or watch her being garroted. So if JB was bludgeoned on the 2nd floor, Burke was not involved in the remainder of the crimes at least, IMO.

Who struck the head blow? That's the main question, for me, because I think that was the reaction to whatever action set this whole thing off that night.

I believe Patsy knew JB had been molested by someone in their inner circle--or even Patsy herself, as theories of that are also possible. Because of the autopsy results, because of JB's age and lifestyle, because of the physical evidence of the fibers and ransom note, and because of so much more, I believe Patsy was involved in this murder at least after the head blow.

Personally, I think it's entirely possible that John and Patsy took the child to the basement together. They both have fibers found on the body, with Patsy's found tied into the murder weapon.

Of course, John's shirt fibers on the genitals don't prove he was even there for the strangulation, so I'm only speculating he was there based on what I've said before: the garrote looks to me like something a man would think of, not a woman. Also, I believe John lied to LE many times, as well, but of course, he could have been covering up for someone else in his family.

Why use the garrote if she was dying from the head blow? I think DeeDee may be right, but maybe it's more complicated than that. If neither Patsy nor John were present when the head blow happened--meaning Burke bludgeoned his sister in a sibling fight--they might not have known how completely her skull was damaged. Perhaps the ones who needed the visual image of death were in fact her parents.

Maybe they thought she was dead already. I've seen so many good sources say that head injuries are totally unpredictable. Maybe JonBenet was on her bed, perhaps some convulsing happened, but maybe one or both of the parents found her and felt no detectable pulse, not by them, at any rate. So perhaps they took her downstairs to stage the death, thinking this would look convincing to LE if kidnappers were involved. Otherwise, why leave the child? If she were only unconscious, why not take her, even better she wouldn't scream or fight?

This is hard to imagine, because it's all so unimaginable. So I find it difficult to be clear on this speculation. But it has occurred to me that the Ramseys, one or more, were improvising at the climax of a crisis that had begun some time before, when they found out JonBenet was being molested.

So was the strangulation truly "an accident" if any of this were truly what happened? That would be a point of law I'm not adequate to argue: "intent" would be the issue on which it would hang, but I've seen some compelling argument, with case law cited, that not calling for help, even if there was no intent to kill, would put this case into serious felony murder charges.

Well, these are my best guesses. That's all they'll ever be, and I've never seen anyone agree on much of anything about this case, so I don't expect anyone to do so now.

But getting those phone records to track the Ramsey calls that morning would go a long way towards finally putting any "intruder" nonsense to rest, IMO.

And it's also my opinion that finding out who was molesting JB BEFORE that night would break the case wide open, as far as knowing who did what to JonBenet Ramsey on Dec. 25/26, 1996.

KoldKase,
Blood from JB's nose was found on the pillowcase on her bed by LE: see the 1998 LE interview with Patsy.
Yes, I agree. Presumably this sample has been dna matched, even if they nevere released the results

Because of this, I am fairly sure this means her head was bludgeoned in or near her room, or at least on the 2nd floor.
The location of the blood-stain suggests this, but it does not follow that this is where she suffered head trauma.

The garrote cord was tied onto the child's neck, but I have not seen any unquestionable source with evidence proving exactly where that was done. Since it was tied in the back of the neck, and since she was laid on her stomach by the paint tray (carpet fiber from the basement and a paint chip matched to paint from the paint tray were found on her chin at autopsy), it's possible the cord was tied onto her neck by the paint tray in the basement, as well.
Precisely. The probable location is the basement, but again it does not follow because the paint-tote was located there that the garrote was applied there.

The paintbrush was inserted into her vagina, as the birefringent material found indicates. That paintbrush was broken beside the paint tray, as slivers of it were found on the carpet there. So one can argue she was brought downstairs unconscious from the head blow, laid on her back, undressed, paintbrush from paint tray inserted, then she was wiped down, redressed, and turned over, a cord tied on her neck at this time, the paintbrush broken and tied onto the cord, both as she was lying on her stomach. Then the "handle" was pulled from behind/over her. I'm assuming, of course, that she was wiped down and redressed before she was turned over because her bladder released onto the front of her long johns and onto the basement carpet by the cellar door when she expired, or that's what Lou Smit said.
Yes, since as you suggest there is corroborating evidence, e.g. shards from the paintbrush.

Then her body was moved into the cellar room, laid on a blanket which was wrapped around her "papoose style"--you can see a similar picture of just such a wrapping around her while she was a baby in John's arms in one of the books on this case--maybe the Ramsey's?
Possibly, this could also have occurred anywhere else in the house, then she was simply carried to the basement.

One thing I do believe: if JonBenet's blood from her nose found on the pillowcase is truly a fact in evidence and came from drainage from the head blow, then not-quite-10 year old Burke was probably not capable of carrying his sister's limp 45 lbs. to the basement by himself.
Yes, dna analysis should confirm this? Burke was not involved in the staging, he was too young to fabricate such a crime-scene.

Who struck the head blow? That's the main question, for me, because I think that was the reaction to whatever action set this whole thing off that night.
Well, not for me, since we assume it was a Ramsey. The motivation behind the staging is more pertinent, since I reckon it was largely redundant, and for us an advantage since one of our big clues are the size-12's.

I believe Patsy knew JB had been molested by someone in their inner circle--or even Patsy herself, as theories of that are also possible. Because of the autopsy results, because of JB's age and lifestyle, because of the physical evidence of the fibers and ransom note, and because of so much more, I believe Patsy was involved in this murder at least after the head blow.
Both parents were involved in the staging. Although, improbable, it is possible that Patsy was ignorant about JonBenet's abuse, and if she was the killer, then abuse might rank lower in her consideration, when facing the prospect of a homicide charge.

Personally, I think it's entirely possible that John and Patsy took the child to the basement together. They both have fibers found on the body, with Patsy's found tied into the murder weapon.
Possibly. They had approximately five hours to relocate her to the basement. Some inconsistencies arise if you assume Patsy wrote the ransom note, e.g. where, when and under which illumination? Where was John at this point, or were they seated together sipping black coffee, discussing an abduction narrative?

Of course, John's shirt fibers on the genitals don't prove he was even there for the strangulation, so I'm only speculating he was there based on what I've said before: the garrote looks to me like something a man would think of, not a woman. Also, I believe John lied to LE many times, as well, but of course, he could have been covering up for someone else in his family.
Yes, this is the weak link in assuming that JonBenet's staging all took place in the basement.

Why use the garrote if she was dying from the head blow? I think DeeDee may be right, but maybe it's more complicated than that. If neither Patsy nor John were present when the head blow happened--meaning Burke bludgeoned his sister in a sibling fight--they might not have known how completely her skull was damaged. Perhaps the ones who needed the visual image of death were in fact her parents.
The garrote is not required. All that was necessary was that JonBenet be relocated to the wine-cellar, minus her underwear and longjohns. From this lea can infer JonBenet had suffered head trauma, a sexual assault, then placed in the wine-cellar as part of a botched abduction?

So was the strangulation truly "an accident" if any of this were truly what happened? That would be a point of law I'm not adequate to argue: "intent" would be the issue on which it would hang, but I've seen some compelling argument, with case law cited, that not calling for help, even if there was no intent to kill, would put this case into serious felony murder charges.
No, the strangulation was deliberate, only the intent is in doubt, e.g. involuntary manslaughter. My starting point would be that JonBenet was deliberately asphyxiated using the garrote with the intent of killing her. I reckon JonBenet suffered an acute sexual assault, and head trauma, this was followed by a cleanup and staging e.g. in her bedroom, thus the bloodstained pillow. At some point it was considered this would not allow the R's any scope for fleeing the state by plane, or even after taking advice on the cellphone that Aunty Pam recovered, which might be the reason for a last minute change of plan.

Basically JonBenet was dumped into the wine-cellar. The wine-cellar does not lend itself as the natural location for a sexual assault and asphyxiation to occur, possibly her bed, at school, on a quiet street, at a pageant, seem more likely, particularly if you are a stranger and do not know the layout of the house, on this point both the Ramsey's and the Paughs agreed, see nedra's opinion.

My point is that the wine-cellar as a crime-scene was not staged, JonBenet's person was, consider some of the items found with JonBenet: Pink, bloodstained, Barbie Nightgown, Barbie doll, various partially opened Christmas gifts. The common factor: none. What does this suggest, that the wine-cellar is where stuff was dumped, once an abduction strategy had been decided?

I do not think JonBenet was asphyxiated with the paintbrush handle present, that was an afterthought. The cord yes, but the garrote could not function as constructed, JonBenet's hair was embedded into the knotting, suggesting this happened after she was strangled. Which might allow for the asphyxiation taking place elsewhere. If you give it some thought only the paintbrush handle suggests that the staging of JonBenet's person took place there, but alike the placing of JonBenet into the wine-cellar, the paintbrush might simply be a staged adornment.

I think the evidence points to things taking place elsewhere in the house. And the wine-cellar simply being the best place to effect an abduction scenario. This is why I am undecided about the staging purpose of the garrote, that is if the garrote added to the crime-scene, what precisely did the apparent absence of a sexual assault add, why was JonBenet's naked torso not apparent?

In the absence of any redacted forensic evidence, dna analysis etc. It looks as if Patsy applied the paintbrush handle, authored the ransom note, redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, and possibly asphyxiated JonBenet deliberately. From this I reckon the person who sexually assaulted JonBenet was the same person who asphyxiated her?


.
 
You may be right about the dark fibers and JR's shirt fibers, DeeDee.

I was "thinking" that JR's shirt fibers were found on her genitals, but I'll have to look it up now that you've pinned me down. I've read so much on this case, though, over so many years, I do get confused. I'll see if I can find the shirt info, which I believe was in the transcript of JR's interview in Atlanta in 2000.

I do remember that Smit said the fibers from the duvet in the suitcase matched the fibers on JonBenet, now that you bring that up. There was some disagreement between the CBI and the FBI, wasn't there? Seems like the FBI attributed them to one source, but the CBI another?

Okay, now I'm really confused. Cynic! SuperDave! Whynut! Help! I know y'all know the details of evidence here. :waitasec:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edit: Went to a transcript of the 2000 Atlanta interviews of LE with the Ramseys and the statement is exactly as you remember it, DeeDee. To Patsy and John they asked why fibers from John's black shirt would be in the "underpants" of JonBenet. They also used the word "crotch," which is probably why I rolled that into the wiping of the genitals.

Patsy Ramsey & John Ramsey - BPD Interviews (Atlanta) - August 28, 2000 - Forums For Justice


Now I'm going to hunt for the source of Smit's contention that dark fibers found...on the genitals?...were matched to the suitcase duvet: I remember this because the black duvet, from JAR's bedclothes, was found in JAR's suitcase downstairs under the broken basement window along with a children's Dr. Seuss book, also had JAR's semen on it, which caused a lot of debate. I still believe if this is completely unrelated to the murder or molestation, using the suitcase in the staging at least forever put JAR further into the mystery.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back again, and I found some answers...or more accurately, the questions...about the various attributions of fibers to the body and clothing. Cynic, of course, defined the problems here for us, since there has never been a trial to sort it out under testimony with the actual evidence presented:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6296096&highlight=fibers#post6296096

KoldKase,
Genitals, crotch or inside the underwear. The presence of John Ramsey's anywhere on any one of those locations is sufficent to link him with the wine-cellar crime-scene.

Inside the underwear is alike Patsy's fibers on the underside of the duct-tape. Given the Ramsey's version of events, they should simply not be there.


.
 
DeeDee, I found Smit's alleged deposition in the Wolf lawsuit. I say alleged because no one but Team Ramsey had access to it until jams got the go ahead to put it on her website. Since we have never seen the original transcript, and since this alleged copy of it could easily have been altered, and since jams admitted she edited out sections of the depositions according to her own agenda, we don't know how accurate any of this is. So I always put a caveat in front of any quotes I use from it: Lou Smit was Team Ramsey and Number One in the propaganda machine. What he said was always biased, at least, and sometimes twisted or just wrong. Maybe he just got confused at times, as we all do.

At any rate, I was thinking my original statement about the dark fibers on the genitalia being sourced to JR's shirt might have come from confusing that with Lou Smit telling us the dark fibers found on the genitals came from the suitcase duvet.

Here's a full quote about the fibers from Smit being questioned by Lin Wood, I believe, under oath--not that testifying in a deposition is anything akin to finding of facts which are tested in a court of law during trial, especially not a criminal trial. This is simply Wood and Smit [oh, the metaphors that come to mind] having a good time making the defense case for the Ramseys they both were dying to make, unchallenged by any competent attorney and without having to present any of the original case evidence, or any experts who worked on it, etc. I'm just pointing out to those who don't know how a civil suit works that there is plenty of false information that came out of Smit during this deposition, but that's another thread.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...rs+genitals+suitcase&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Q. Let me ask you, Detective Smit, based upon your 35-plus years of law enforcement experience and your experience in homicide investigations, and I take it, in actually burglary and other types of investigations where there is exit and entry, what do all these clues suggest to you?

A. They suggest very strongly to me that someone gained entry into that house recently and that this very likely could have been the intruder that killed JonBenet.

Also, another clue found in the suitcase. It had items in the suitcase. By the way, this particular suitcase was a Ramsey suitcase. It was used by John Andrew, the older son of John Ramsey. In this suitcase -- and, normally, he did keep it upstairs. In this suitcase was a sham, which is more or less like a pillow cover, a duvet, which is something similar to a cover on a bed, and a Dr. Seuss book, which is normally read by children. One of the lab examiners from CBI, Colorado Bureau of Investigation, issued reports which I have seen -- or which I had seen indicating the following: Fibers from the sham and duvet were found on the shirt of JonBenet that she was wearing when she was found. But they were on the outside of the shirt. Fibers from that sham and duvet were on the outside of the shirt. And that is significant. How would they get there on the outside of the shirt? Perhaps, did our killer try to put JonBenet in that suitcase at some time or that, or somehow the sham and duvet were outside the suitcase and she was lying on it? All I am saying is that those fibers tell a little -- tell a story.

Q. And is that report by Ms. Murphy of the CBI the type of report, the type of data, the type of information that a homicide investigator would reasonably rely upon in the course of a homicide investigation?

A. Yes, sir. It would.
They were also on the body of JonBenet, in the vaginal area. Duct tape from her mouth on these fibers on it is. And on the hand ligature.

Now, I also had seen another report from the FBI that said that these fibers were not from the sham and duvet, and I think it is important I put this in the presentation. But the fibers that were found on JonBenet, there was no source for these fibers. In other words, whatever left it there was not found in that house. And great care was taken to take every item from that house which could leave this type of a fiber.

Q. Was the conflict between the CBI report and the FBI report with respect to those fibers, the fibers that are described here found on the front and back of JonBenet's shirt, on her body in the vaginal area, the duct tape on her mouth, and the hand ligature, to your knowledge, was that conflict ever resolved while you were involved in the investigation?

A. No.
 
KoldKase,
Genitals, crotch or inside the underwear. The presence of John Ramsey's anywhere on any one of those locations is sufficent to link him with the wine-cellar crime-scene.

Inside the underwear is alike Patsy's fibers on the underside of the duct-tape. Given the Ramsey's version of events, they should simply not be there.


.

Agree, UKGuy. Especially since we know the size 12-14 Bloomies were put on the child after the attack, putting JR's fibers in a brand new pair of Bloomies never on a human being before they were used to dress a dying, soon to be murdered, or dead child.
 
I feel that the paintbrush handle WAS used to strangle her. If you look at the autopsy photos, you'll see several RED ligature furrows and one white one. The reddish ones happened while she was alive and the white one happened when she was dead, but in the early blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis.
I feel whoever strangled her used the paintbrush handle to grasp as they wound the cord around her throat tightly several times.
 
Amazon:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892963859/?ie=UTF8&tag=bcreviews0a-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=211189&creativeASIN=0892963859&link_code=as3&creative=373489"]Amazon.com: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsey Tells the Story of His Journey from Grief to Grace (9780892963850): John Ramsey, Marie Chapian: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CrBAIEcLL.@@AMEPARAM@@51CrBAIEcLL[/ame]#_

Does the first chapter description of events include any details not mentioned in DOI?

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892963859/?ie=UTF8&tag=bcreviews0a-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=211189&creativeASIN=0892963859&link_code=as3&creative=373489#reader_0892963859"]Amazon.com: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsey Tells the Story of His Journey from Grief to Grace (9780892963850): John Ramsey, Marie Chapian: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CrBAIEcLL.@@AMEPARAM@@51CrBAIEcLL[/ame]
 
I feel that the paintbrush handle WAS used to strangle her. If you look at the autopsy photos, you'll see several RED ligature furrows and one white one. The reddish ones happened while she was alive and the white one happened when she was dead, but in the early blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis.
I feel whoever strangled her used the paintbrush handle to grasp as they wound the cord around her throat tightly several times.

DeeDee249,
Well I cannot reach that conclusion from the evidence. In fact even Occam would caution you not to multiply objects beyond necessity.

Assuming JonBenet was comatose, the simplest way to aspyxiate her would be to use the cord as a ligature, not as a garrote, which just complicates the process.

The biggest mistake made in all the RDI theories is to assume the staging of JonBenet's person took place down in the basement. This has been backed up by unsubstantiated claims about the size-12's being located in the wine-cellar etc.

The garrote is an uneccessary adornment. It adds absolutley nothing to our presumed knowledge, as to why JonBenet was killed. Since any signs of prior acute sexual assault were cleaned up and hidden, even an EA motive for the garrote flys out the window.

The garrote is alike the size-12's. Pure staging, both are non-functional, but play some role in the mind of the stager.

Everything could have taken place upstairs, except possibly the addition of the broken paintbrush handle, there is nothing that mandates the staging location was the basement, only the RDI assumption that because the paintbrush handle was broken there, then the staging took place there. When it may simply be that at the last moment further staging was required, hence the addition of the paintbrush handle, and restraints?

The evidence suggests it all took place upstairs, acute sexual assault, head trauma, ligature asphyxiaton, followed by a redressing.

Placing JonBenet into the wine-cellar, is done simply to effect an abduction strategy, it is not done to fake a crime-scene or what killed her.

What are the R's options: IDI is the most obvious, so effect a bedtime assault and subsequent death, but on reflection that also leaves an R open to consideration as a suspect, next option is an abduction, here no R should be an initial suspect, allowing the possibility of fleeing Colorado.

As per the R's version of events and the use of the size-12's along with the longjohns, the latter a slight inconsistency, in any basement narrative, a bedtime assault and death is arrived at.

Now the transfer of this to an abduction strategy should be straight forward, just place JonBenet into the wine-cellar and cover her with some object so that the chances of her being found are low.

Yet the paintbrush was applied, obviously the stager thought this was an important flourish, what would be convincing evidence might be if the missing piece of the paintbrush was left inside JonBenet, or even simply used to effect a genital injury, thus hoping to mask the acute sexual assault?

The question to be asked is this: If the R's were fabricating an abduction crime-scene, why would they then, citing Coroner Meyer apply a digital penetration and then cover this up, by pulling up JonBenet's size-12's and longjohns, and wrapping her in a white blanket, why not leave her in a state of disarray, obviously the victim of a bedtime assault and abdcution?

the answer might simply be, that this was the remains of a prior staging e.g. one intended for the bedroom. And that the mistake Patsy made was in redressing JonBenet to match the bedtime abduction, as per her interview statement about dressing JonBenet for bed e.g. down to the longjohns!

To reiterate the wine-cellar was no primary crime-scene, there are no artifacts there to backup this as the crime-scene. Its simply where JonBenet was dumped so to effect an abduction scenario. Furthermore no abductor is going to relocate JonBenet to the wine-cellar, therein sexually assault her and apply EA or a garrote, then camly wipe JonBenet down, redress her in size-12's and longjohns, finished off with, considerately wrapping her in a white blanket, then after switching off the light, and latching the door, leave without the intended abductee!

A properly staged wine-cellar crime-scene would have had JonBenet, optionally wrapped in a blanket but naked from the waist down, with her underwear either left upstairs or somewhere in the basement. This was not done, why?

.
 
Q. Was the conflict between the CBI report and the FBI report with respect to those fibers, the fibers that are described here found on the front and back of JonBenet's shirt, on her body in the vaginal area, the duct tape on her mouth, and the hand ligature, to your knowledge, was that conflict ever resolved while you were involved in the investigation?
A. No.
Lou Smit Deposition (Wolf civil case)


:waitasec:are they talking about the red or black fibers ?
and do all these fibers come from the same source?
 
DeeDee249,
The garrote is an uneccessary adornment. It adds absolutley nothing to our presumed knowledge, as to why JonBenet was killed. Since any signs of prior acute sexual assault were cleaned up and hidden, even an EA motive for the garrote flys out the window.

The garrote is alike the size-12's. Pure staging, both are non-functional, but play some role in the mind of the stager.

Here are two serial killers that used tourniquets as methods in their murders:

Anthony Allen Shore - 'The Tourniquet Killer':

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Allen_Shore"]Anthony Allen Shore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
"He operated from 1987 to 2000, and known as the "Tourniquet Killer" since he used a ligature with either a toothbrush or bamboo stick to tighten or loosen the ligature to control them...
...Eleven hours into his interrogation, Shore confessed to the murders of Carmen Del Estrada, Diana Rebollar and Dana Sanchez. He also confessed to the 1987 murder of fourteen year old Laurie Tremblay and the 1994 rape of a fourteen year old girl. Laurie Tremblay was walking to school when she was killed and dumped behind a Mexican restaurant. Detectives had no way of linking this killing to the other three murders, since Laurie was strangled with a ligature. When asked why he switch to a tourniquet, Shore replied, "because I hurt my finger while murdering Tremblay".

John Wayne Gacy - American Serial Killer and Rapist:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy"]John Wayne Gacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
"...Many of his victims had been strangled with a tourniquet, which Gacy referred to as his "rope trick". Occasionally, the victim had convulsed for an "hour or two" after the rope trick before dying. When asked where he drew the inspiration for the two-by-four found at his house in which he had manacled many of his victims, Gacy stated he had been inspired to construct the device from reading about the Houston Mass Murders..."

John Wayne Gacy's demonstration of how he made his tourniquet ligature to kill victims:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M6Kx5S6lRA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M6Kx5S6lRA[/ame]
 
Here are two serial killers that used tourniquets as methods in their murders:

Anthony Allen Shore - 'The Tourniquet Killer':

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Allen_Shore"]Anthony Allen Shore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
"He operated from 1987 to 2000, and known as the "Tourniquet Killer" since he used a ligature with either a toothbrush or bamboo stick to tighten or loosen the ligature to control them...
...Eleven hours into his interrogation, Shore confessed to the murders of Carmen Del Estrada, Diana Rebollar and Dana Sanchez. He also confessed to the 1987 murder of fourteen year old Laurie Tremblay and the 1994 rape of a fourteen year old girl. Laurie Tremblay was walking to school when she was killed and dumped behind a Mexican restaurant. Detectives had no way of linking this killing to the other three murders, since Laurie was strangled with a ligature. When asked why he switch to a tourniquet, Shore replied, "because I hurt my finger while murdering Tremblay".

John Wayne Gacy - American Serial Killer and Rapist:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy"]John Wayne Gacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
"...Many of his victims had been strangled with a tourniquet, which Gacy referred to as his "rope trick". Occasionally, the victim had convulsed for an "hour or two" after the rope trick before dying. When asked where he drew the inspiration for the two-by-four found at his house in which he had manacled many of his victims, Gacy stated he had been inspired to construct the device from reading about the Houston Mass Murders..."

John Wayne Gacy's demonstration of how he made his tourniquet ligature to kill victims:

Whaleshark,
Well thank you for the references. Are you suggesting one of the R's may have been a serial killer, or ...


.
 
No, UKGuy, I'm suggesting that your point about the stick on the garrote being an extra adornment only and not part of the ligature / killing instrument may not be true, as proven by the fact that those particular serial killers DID use tourniquet-style ligatures in their killings, and not just ligatures or cords/ropes alone - that the stick was an important part of their killing tool....

...So the stick and the cord together does not have to mean that it is just for looks and staging on JonBenet, but could be that way because that's how it was used to kill her - tourniquet-style, just as those guys used tourniquet-style ligatures in their killings.

I'm not suggesting whoever did it was a serial killer, or the Ramseys are serial killers...

Clarifying: my point was to prove the possibility that the ligature device could have been used exactly as it looked - by providing examples of killers who did use tourniquet-style ligatures in their killings as well.
 
That is how I see the ligature as well, Whaleshark. I see it as a tourniquet-type device, and not as a true garrote. A garrote needs no knots and is twisted around the throat, usually using the killer's both hands, each hand holding one end. It may or may not be wound multiple times, but doesn't usually have a handle. The knot at the back of JB's neck wasn't something that is part of a garrote either. That knot didn't function as a noose either. It was there, it seems, to keep one end of the ligature in place while the other end was wound around her neck.
 
KoldKase,

Yes, I agree. Presumably this sample has been dna matched, even if they nevere released the results


The location of the blood-stain suggests this, but it does not follow that this is where she suffered head trauma.


Precisely. The probable location is the basement, but again it does not follow because the paint-tote was located there that the garrote was applied there.


Yes, since as you suggest there is corroborating evidence, e.g. shards from the paintbrush.


Possibly, this could also have occurred anywhere else in the house, then she was simply carried to the basement.


Yes, dna analysis should confirm this? Burke was not involved in the staging, he was too young to fabricate such a crime-scene.


Well, not for me, since we assume it was a Ramsey. The motivation behind the staging is more pertinent, since I reckon it was largely redundant, and for us an advantage since one of our big clues are the size-12's.


Both parents were involved in the staging. Although, improbable, it is possible that Patsy was ignorant about JonBenet's abuse, and if she was the killer, then abuse might rank lower in her consideration, when facing the prospect of a homicide charge.


Possibly. They had approximately five hours to relocate her to the basement. Some inconsistencies arise if you assume Patsy wrote the ransom note, e.g. where, when and under which illumination? Where was John at this point, or were they seated together sipping black coffee, discussing an abduction narrative?


Yes, this is the weak link in assuming that JonBenet's staging all took place in the basement.


The garrote is not required. All that was necessary was that JonBenet be relocated to the wine-cellar, minus her underwear and longjohns. From this lea can infer JonBenet had suffered head trauma, a sexual assault, then placed in the wine-cellar as part of a botched abduction?


No, the strangulation was deliberate, only the intent is in doubt, e.g. involuntary manslaughter. My starting point would be that JonBenet was deliberately asphyxiated using the garrote with the intent of killing her. I reckon JonBenet suffered an acute sexual assault, and head trauma, this was followed by a cleanup and staging e.g. in her bedroom, thus the bloodstained pillow. At some point it was considered this would not allow the R's any scope for fleeing the state by plane, or even after taking advice on the cellphone that Aunty Pam recovered, which might be the reason for a last minute change of plan.

Basically JonBenet was dumped into the wine-cellar. The wine-cellar does not lend itself as the natural location for a sexual assault and asphyxiation to occur, possibly her bed, at school, on a quiet street, at a pageant, seem more likely, particularly if you are a stranger and do not know the layout of the house, on this point both the Ramsey's and the Paughs agreed, see nedra's opinion.

My point is that the wine-cellar as a crime-scene was not staged, JonBenet's person was, consider some of the items found with JonBenet: Pink, bloodstained, Barbie Nightgown, Barbie doll, various partially opened Christmas gifts. The common factor: none. What does this suggest, that the wine-cellar is where stuff was dumped, once an abduction strategy had been decided?

I do not think JonBenet was asphyxiated with the paintbrush handle present, that was an afterthought. The cord yes, but the garrote could not function as constructed, JonBenet's hair was embedded into the knotting, suggesting this happened after she was strangled. Which might allow for the asphyxiation taking place elsewhere. If you give it some thought only the paintbrush handle suggests that the staging of JonBenet's person took place there, but alike the placing of JonBenet into the wine-cellar, the paintbrush might simply be a staged adornment.

I think the evidence points to things taking place elsewhere in the house. And the wine-cellar simply being the best place to effect an abduction scenario. This is why I am undecided about the staging purpose of the garrote, that is if the garrote added to the crime-scene, what precisely did the apparent absence of a sexual assault add, why was JonBenet's naked torso not apparent?

In the absence of any redacted forensic evidence, dna analysis etc. It looks as if Patsy applied the paintbrush handle, authored the ransom note, redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, and possibly asphyxiated JonBenet deliberately. From this I reckon the person who sexually assaulted JonBenet was the same person who asphyxiated her?


.

I"m having a little trouble following your sequence of events.

Because of the length of my post, I didn't go into the evidence around and outside JB's bedroom which suggested a panicked search for something; various drawers in two rooms were left half-opened, diapers hanging out of the open cabinet in the laundry area, etc. There was the kitchen knife on the washing machine and Burke's Swiss knife either on a counter in the basement or on the floor in the cellar room--I've read both. This makes me wonder if that's where the attack started.

The reason I feel the garrote was applied in the basement by the paint tray is because I'm attempting to logically follow actions we know happened: why would the killer run to the paint tray and get the paintbrush, break it in three pieces, then run back upstairs to tie it onto the cord? Then bring the body back to the basement outside the cellar door to finish the strangulation? There's where Smit said JB urinated; this matches with the urine on the front of the long johns, leading me to think that was from her bladder releasing at death. Why run back and forth and back and forth? Pencils, pens, kitchen utensils, etc.--all upstairs nearer to an attack that started on another floor.

The hair tied into both knots on the garrote got there because the cord was tied onto the neck, not first tied and then slipped over the head, like a necklace. I'm not sure why people think the knot at the neck wasn't a functional slipknot. I know the med. examiner described it otherwise, but he didn't take the time to examine and test the knots, I don't believe, nor was that his area of expertise. An expert in knots was brought in, from Canada, but we don't know what he concluded, so I did my own experiment. Working from the clear photo of the knot tied at on the wrist binding, I found the knot to not only work as a slip knot, I had to cut it off my leg, which I used to test it. If the killer(s) could tie one that way, why not also the critical knot at the neck?

Of course, I'm just guessing. Seems this case is just too complicated for my little brain, with all the lack of specific information where we need it, and the flood of disinformation which just obfuscates the truth.

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I appreciate it, as the more perspectives the better the chances of understanding the madness going on in the Hellhole that night.
 
Perhaps the sexual assault did happen in the basement, with the paintbrush: not for sexual stimulation, but to cover up the sexual assault that took place before, which left the chronic vaginal injuries found at autopsy. Maybe the killer(s) didn't know those would show up at autopsy, or hoped they wouldn't.
 
Perhaps this is much of the problem - sleuthers trying to define the ligature that killed Jonbenet and its purpose as one or the other - the debate as to whether it is a functioning garrotte or not, and if it is not, then its purpose must not have been to kill her, but to be only there for staging .... when in fact it can be all of the following: a ligature - garrotte - tourniquet: a killing device...

We know that the ligature on Jonbenet's neck is not just for staging, for asphyxia is called out as a contributor in her death, and we can see the deep furrow from the strangulation by the ligature - it is one of the primary causes of death. So perhaps it is a garrotte-tourniquet-ligature all-in-one and we should look at how it killed her, not how a garrotte is 'supposed' to kill someone...

It is interesting to note that in this article/instruction piece, the author not only points out that a garrotte is not one type of device to the exclusion of all others, but compares a garrotte method more than once to "like using a stick and a tourniquet".


http://www.donrearic.com/thegarrotte.html
(Article cropped for purposes related to our discussion...)

A Short History Of The Garrotte

".....Some people have a heavy opinion on this issue. They have opinions as to the legitimacy of the garrotte as a tool of self-preservation. Others have strong opinions as to the definition of "garrotte."

Some people say, "Well, the garrotte is a..." and then they define it to the exclusion of anything else. The simple fact of the matter is, a "Garrotte" was an execution device that was utilized in Spain up until the mid-1970s. A few other countries used it now and again. And there were many different types of garrottes used as execution devices.

When someone says, "The garrotte is only a killing weapon..." Technically, they are correct, but they are not usually speaking of the execution device that was once used for Capital Punishment, therefore, they are incorrect in reality.

The number one deciding factor is intent. How you use it. You can use some "garrottes" as a Flexible Weapon with no intent whatsoever to kill.

The garrotte had a couple of different forms. One had a metallic collar that was placed around your neck and the collar had a threaded hole that a bolt was inserted through. On the other end of the bolt was a large "T" handle for the executioner. The condemned was seated in a chair, the collar placed over a wooden post and the head of the prisoner, then, the executioner began to tighten the contraption until your neck was crushed or your vertebrae were dislocated, broken or crushed.

Later versions had a blade that ran through the bolt for what was thought to be a "mercy killing." The blade was slipped between the vertebrae, severing the spinal cord.

In a pinch, the improvised garrotte could be a seat, wooden post, strong cord and a metal bar. The noose being affixed around the post and neck of the condemned, the bar could be inserted and the cord twisted until death occurred. Much like using a tourniquet and stick.

These are "garrottes." The important thing to remember is, if someone says, "No, that’s not a garrotte, this is a garrotte..." And they are speaking in absolutes or anything other than an execution device, they’re incorrect. More on that later.

Other "Garrottes"

So, if we exclude the execution devices, what is left? If we do exclude the execution devices, any flexible or semi-flexible weapon that cuts the air off by compressing and/or crushing the trachea, severs (up to and including complete decapitation) the trachea and other vital structures (carotid arteries, jugular veins, vagus nerve, etc.) or breaks the neck, we have a list of items that have been used as a "garrotte."

One Point of View: The Debate

I was once involved in a debate with a person who insisted that a "True Garrotte" would be a "cutter." Meaning, a piano wire or guitar string garrotte. The wire being so fine that it would cut into the structures rather than compress/crush them.

If we trace the lineage of these hand held devices back to the origin of the word, as I did above, we see the "Original Garrotte" did nothing of the sort. The "Original" killed by compression and/or crushing and sometimes neck fracture.

Yet, I consider the "cutters" a form of garrotte because there is modern history to back that up. However, the "cutter" type of garrotte is not a "true" garrotte. It’s just another type of garrotte.

The "Cutter"

Back before delicatessens had slicer machines, the cheese was usually cut by a wire. Yes, a "Cheese Cutter" was basically a wire with two handles. As far as I can tell, this is where the "Modern Cutter Garrotte" came from. The source is Melton’s "Clandestine Warfare."

The British SOE and American OSS used these devices, to what degree I do not know. Some wire garrottes with machined and knurled brass handles (for enhanced grip) were manufactured and issued. They are in the OSS Weapons Catalog, as well as other references...

Gigli bone saws were also used as "Survival Saws" as well as "Cutter" Garrottes during World War Two.

The "Crusher"

"The Garrotte. Thugs in India have long been known for their method of strangling, called garrotting. It can be executed with a rope, strong cord or a piece of twisted cloth about three feet long with a noose in one end. This is a garrotte. Properly applied, it produces a deadly, silent strangle.

Slip the noose over the forefinger of the right hand so that the loop lies down across the palm toward the little finger. Close the right hand and pick up the free end of the cord with the left hand, so that the thumb and fingers are on the inner side of the cord and the end is even with the little finger. Approach the victim from the rear and, opening the right hand, throw the loop over his head with the left. Use the left hand to draw the noose through the right hand until it is nearly taut about the neck. Then close the right hand about the noose at the back of the victim’s neck and twist as you would in applying a tourniquet. With your hand against the back of his neck and your right arm stiff, the victim is held at arm’s length and is unable to free himself from the strangling cord or to reach his attacker. A hard pull to the rear at this point will make the victim fall backward and cause his chin to fold down over the cord, thus adding his own body weight to the pressure of the strangle." ~Col. Rex Applegate, Kill or Get Killed

garrottethugeetech.jpg


In the illustration above you can see the finishing position of what Applegate describes. The right hand is INSIDE the loop, when the loop is pulled tight around the neck and your hand, a fist is made with the open hand then the fist is cranked counterclockwise. Much like a stick in a tourniquet. The palm is open and oriented UP, then closed into a fist and oriented DOWN.

What Colonel Applegate was describing was the method and weapon of the ancient Thugee Cult of India. This is where we get our slang word of "." The word "" comes from the Hindi verb, "thaglana," which means, "to deceive."

I do not know if the garrotte described above contained a rupee or not. There is another line of thought that there was more than one way to strangle with a scarf [rumal]. And that was, a rupee or rupees [coins] were tied into the end of the scarf to give it weight so it could be thrown around the neck and then the strangle was initiated. In fact, more than a line of thought, there is proof of this from the period of British Occupation of India when the British suppressed the Thugee Cult and executed and imprisoned thousands of Thugs.

....In "Kill or Get Killed," Applegate then mentions the "Stick Strangle." This is a triangular method where the stick is held in reverse grip and inserted under the chin from behind (or from the front)...John Steyers covered this Stick Strangle in his book, "Cold Steel."

Then, he addresses other methods of strangulation:

"The Cord Strangle. Another type of strangulation, as old as history in the Far East, is accomplished with any light cord or wire of good tensile strength, about 18 inches long. The thinner the cord or wire, the quicker will be the effectiveness. Tie a loop at each end of the cord, or tie small wooden blocks on the ends, so that a secure grip can be taken. Approaching the man from the rear, throw him off balance, as with the stick [strangle], with your right foot against the inside of his right knee. With a hand on each end of the cord (the cord held taut), bring the cord over the victim’s head and back against the throat. Cross the hands at the rear of the neck and apply pressure both ways. Strangulation is quick and silent..." ~Applegate

Takedowns, Using the Enemy’s Weight

There are four basic ways to take someone to the ground immediately following any of these maneuvers.

#1 Pulling straight downward and back.

#2 Kicking the back of the knee and pulling back and down.

#3 Knee strike to the lower back and a pull backwards and down.

#4 A quick turn of the body where you are back to back with the enemy and the enemy is hoisted off of his feet to complete the crush. This is the movement that can possibly result in decapitation if a "cutter" garrotte is used.

In Closing...

.....I cannot imagine going through the trouble of carrying something with such a single purpose as a "cutting" garrotte. That is a specific type of weapon and the only outcome from the proper use of one is death of the opponent, and that is going to be carried out from behind almost exclusively, as in Sentry Removal.

Any belt, length of rope, cord, a telephone cord, whatever is at hand, can be a garrotte. You can carry a very strong bandana or scarf with that being carried with the intent to be used as a flexible weapon. A jacket or light coat can be used as a garrotte, like the belt, it is a common, every day item. The every day items that are all around us points to flexible weapons being really viable and valuable Self-defense tools.

Anything other than a "cutting" garrotte can be used with lethal or non-lethal intent. So, if you make an improvised garrotte from 550 ParaCord, what you do with it will be the deciding factor".

Don Rearic
__

....More info on Ligatures/Tourniquets/Garrottes/Knots -

From here:
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html:

THE KNOT
The ligature is usually drawn once or twice around the neck and pulled tight until unconsciousness or death occurs. There will be a break in the ligature furrow at the point where the assailant's hands were. If there is a knot or tourniquet impression on the neck of the victim, and no ligature is present, then the ligature was, at some point after the victim's death, untied and removed.

Now ask some questions of the knot or tourniquet: How tight was it? Could the victim have accomplished it themselves(suicide)? Is this something that took some time to think about and put together, or was it done in a hurry with materials found at the scene?

Note the nature and complexity of any knots or tourniquets, and try to identify them if possible. It may be possible to generate a narrow suspect pool from the type of knot used. In cases of suicidal strangulation, a single knot is almost always used. The tourniquet method, however, is used in both homicide and suicide cases. Remember also that the tourniquet method takes time to implement on an unwilling victim.

The term garroting is applicable in situations where a victim is attacked from behind without warning, overpowered, and killed. There is very little time or assailant/victim interaction. If an assailant employs a more time consuming method, what does this say about his perceptions of time? If the assailant attacks and kills with very little interaction with the victim, what does that say?

When thinking about the knot or tourniquet or the nature of the ligature itself as applied to the victim, the two most important questions to ask are:
1) What did the assailant take time to do? 2) What did the assailant not take time to do? This will establish what was important or not so important to this assailant during the attack.

THE LIGATURE PATTERN
"It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck, or associated fingernail marks, either from the victim attempting to remove the ligature or (together with finger- tip bruising) from the assailant attempting to secure the ligature and/or restrain the neck from moving or even attempting manual strangulation. The victim's clothing or necklace may also be caught in the ligature during a struggle and marks from these require careful evaluation."

"...If a thin ligature is used, there will be a very prominent deep mark encircling the neck."
___
 
KGuyNo, U, I'm suggesting that your point about the stick on the garrote being an extra adornment only and not part of the ligature / killing instrument may not be true, as proven by the fact that those particular serial killers DID use tourniquet-style ligatures in their killings, and not just ligatures or cords/ropes alone - that the stick was an important part of their killing tool....

...So the stick and the cord together does not have to mean that it is just for looks and staging on JonBenet, but could be that way because that's how it was used to kill her - tourniquet-style, just as those guys used tourniquet-style ligatures in their killings.

I'm not suggesting whoever did it was a serial killer, or the Ramseys are serial killers...

Clarifying: my point was to prove the possibility that the ligature device could have been used exactly as it looked - by providing examples of killers who did use tourniquet-style ligatures in their killings as well.

Whaleshark,
Well you could be 100% correct, who can contradict you, except of course Anthony Allen Shore and John Wayne Gacy.

Your clarification does not demonstrate that the garotte was used as advertised. All you have done is what everyone before you has done, e.g. asserted that the garotte was employed as a garotte.

Those that have read my posts on this topic will know I have been here before. I have researched both EA and AEA, and the literature on child murder.

Citing serial killers to substantiate what is in effect a staged homicide should flag up the extent to which you might be assisting the Ramsey case.
 
Perhaps this is much of the problem - sleuthers trying to define the ligature that killed Jonbenet and its purpose as one or the other - the debate as to whether it is a functioning garrotte or not, and if it is not, then its purpose must not have been to kill her, but to be only there for staging .... when in fact it can be all of the following: a ligature - garrotte - tourniquet: a killing device...

We know that the ligature on Jonbenet's neck is not just for staging, for asphyxia is called out as a contributor in her death, and we can see the deep furrow from the strangulation by the ligature - it is one of the primary causes of death. So perhaps it is a garrotte-tourniquet-ligature all-in-one and we should look at how it killed her, not how a garrotte is 'supposed' to kill someone...

It is interesting to note that in this article/instruction piece, the author not only points out that a garrotte is not one type of device to the exclusion of all others, but compares a garrotte method more than once to "like using a stick and a tourniquet".


http://www.donrearic.com/thegarrotte.html
(Article cropped for purposes related to our discussion...)

A Short History Of The Garrotte

".....Some people have a heavy opinion on this issue. They have opinions as to the legitimacy of the garrotte as a tool of self-preservation. Others have strong opinions as to the definition of "garrotte."

Some people say, "Well, the garrotte is a..." and then they define it to the exclusion of anything else. The simple fact of the matter is, a "Garrotte" was an execution device that was utilized in Spain up until the mid-1970s. A few other countries used it now and again. And there were many different types of garrottes used as execution devices.

When someone says, "The garrotte is only a killing weapon..." Technically, they are correct, but they are not usually speaking of the execution device that was once used for Capital Punishment, therefore, they are incorrect in reality.

The number one deciding factor is intent. How you use it. You can use some "garrottes" as a Flexible Weapon with no intent whatsoever to kill.

The garrotte had a couple of different forms. One had a metallic collar that was placed around your neck and the collar had a threaded hole that a bolt was inserted through. On the other end of the bolt was a large "T" handle for the executioner. The condemned was seated in a chair, the collar placed over a wooden post and the head of the prisoner, then, the executioner began to tighten the contraption until your neck was crushed or your vertebrae were dislocated, broken or crushed.

Later versions had a blade that ran through the bolt for what was thought to be a "mercy killing." The blade was slipped between the vertebrae, severing the spinal cord.

In a pinch, the improvised garrotte could be a seat, wooden post, strong cord and a metal bar. The noose being affixed around the post and neck of the condemned, the bar could be inserted and the cord twisted until death occurred. Much like using a tourniquet and stick.

These are "garrottes." The important thing to remember is, if someone says, "No, that’s not a garrotte, this is a garrotte..." And they are speaking in absolutes or anything other than an execution device, they’re incorrect. More on that later.

Other "Garrottes"

So, if we exclude the execution devices, what is left? If we do exclude the execution devices, any flexible or semi-flexible weapon that cuts the air off by compressing and/or crushing the trachea, severs (up to and including complete decapitation) the trachea and other vital structures (carotid arteries, jugular veins, vagus nerve, etc.) or breaks the neck, we have a list of items that have been used as a "garrotte."

One Point of View: The Debate

I was once involved in a debate with a person who insisted that a "True Garrotte" would be a "cutter." Meaning, a piano wire or guitar string garrotte. The wire being so fine that it would cut into the structures rather than compress/crush them.

If we trace the lineage of these hand held devices back to the origin of the word, as I did above, we see the "Original Garrotte" did nothing of the sort. The "Original" killed by compression and/or crushing and sometimes neck fracture.

Yet, I consider the "cutters" a form of garrotte because there is modern history to back that up. However, the "cutter" type of garrotte is not a "true" garrotte. It’s just another type of garrotte.

The "Cutter"

Back before delicatessens had slicer machines, the cheese was usually cut by a wire. Yes, a "Cheese Cutter" was basically a wire with two handles. As far as I can tell, this is where the "Modern Cutter Garrotte" came from. The source is Melton’s "Clandestine Warfare."

The British SOE and American OSS used these devices, to what degree I do not know. Some wire garrottes with machined and knurled brass handles (for enhanced grip) were manufactured and issued. They are in the OSS Weapons Catalog, as well as other references...

Gigli bone saws were also used as "Survival Saws" as well as "Cutter" Garrottes during World War Two.

The "Crusher"

"The Garrotte. Thugs in India have long been known for their method of strangling, called garrotting. It can be executed with a rope, strong cord or a piece of twisted cloth about three feet long with a noose in one end. This is a garrotte. Properly applied, it produces a deadly, silent strangle.

Slip the noose over the forefinger of the right hand so that the loop lies down across the palm toward the little finger. Close the right hand and pick up the free end of the cord with the left hand, so that the thumb and fingers are on the inner side of the cord and the end is even with the little finger. Approach the victim from the rear and, opening the right hand, throw the loop over his head with the left. Use the left hand to draw the noose through the right hand until it is nearly taut about the neck. Then close the right hand about the noose at the back of the victim’s neck and twist as you would in applying a tourniquet. With your hand against the back of his neck and your right arm stiff, the victim is held at arm’s length and is unable to free himself from the strangling cord or to reach his attacker. A hard pull to the rear at this point will make the victim fall backward and cause his chin to fold down over the cord, thus adding his own body weight to the pressure of the strangle." ~Col. Rex Applegate, Kill or Get Killed

garrottethugeetech.jpg


In the illustration above you can see the finishing position of what Applegate describes. The right hand is INSIDE the loop, when the loop is pulled tight around the neck and your hand, a fist is made with the open hand then the fist is cranked counterclockwise. Much like a stick in a tourniquet. The palm is open and oriented UP, then closed into a fist and oriented DOWN.

What Colonel Applegate was describing was the method and weapon of the ancient Thugee Cult of India. This is where we get our slang word of "." The word "" comes from the Hindi verb, "thaglana," which means, "to deceive."

I do not know if the garrotte described above contained a rupee or not. There is another line of thought that there was more than one way to strangle with a scarf [rumal]. And that was, a rupee or rupees [coins] were tied into the end of the scarf to give it weight so it could be thrown around the neck and then the strangle was initiated. In fact, more than a line of thought, there is proof of this from the period of British Occupation of India when the British suppressed the Thugee Cult and executed and imprisoned thousands of Thugs.

....In "Kill or Get Killed," Applegate then mentions the "Stick Strangle." This is a triangular method where the stick is held in reverse grip and inserted under the chin from behind (or from the front)...John Steyers covered this Stick Strangle in his book, "Cold Steel."

Then, he addresses other methods of strangulation:

"The Cord Strangle. Another type of strangulation, as old as history in the Far East, is accomplished with any light cord or wire of good tensile strength, about 18 inches long. The thinner the cord or wire, the quicker will be the effectiveness. Tie a loop at each end of the cord, or tie small wooden blocks on the ends, so that a secure grip can be taken. Approaching the man from the rear, throw him off balance, as with the stick [strangle], with your right foot against the inside of his right knee. With a hand on each end of the cord (the cord held taut), bring the cord over the victim’s head and back against the throat. Cross the hands at the rear of the neck and apply pressure both ways. Strangulation is quick and silent..." ~Applegate

Takedowns, Using the Enemy’s Weight

There are four basic ways to take someone to the ground immediately following any of these maneuvers.

#1 Pulling straight downward and back.

#2 Kicking the back of the knee and pulling back and down.

#3 Knee strike to the lower back and a pull backwards and down.

#4 A quick turn of the body where you are back to back with the enemy and the enemy is hoisted off of his feet to complete the crush. This is the movement that can possibly result in decapitation if a "cutter" garrotte is used.

In Closing...

.....I cannot imagine going through the trouble of carrying something with such a single purpose as a "cutting" garrotte. That is a specific type of weapon and the only outcome from the proper use of one is death of the opponent, and that is going to be carried out from behind almost exclusively, as in Sentry Removal.

Any belt, length of rope, cord, a telephone cord, whatever is at hand, can be a garrotte. You can carry a very strong bandana or scarf with that being carried with the intent to be used as a flexible weapon. A jacket or light coat can be used as a garrotte, like the belt, it is a common, every day item. The every day items that are all around us points to flexible weapons being really viable and valuable Self-defense tools.

Anything other than a "cutting" garrotte can be used with lethal or non-lethal intent. So, if you make an improvised garrotte from 550 ParaCord, what you do with it will be the deciding factor".

Don Rearic
__

....More info on Ligatures/Tourniquets/Garrottes/Knots -

From here:
http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html:

THE KNOT
The ligature is usually drawn once or twice around the neck and pulled tight until unconsciousness or death occurs. There will be a break in the ligature furrow at the point where the assailant's hands were. If there is a knot or tourniquet impression on the neck of the victim, and no ligature is present, then the ligature was, at some point after the victim's death, untied and removed.

Now ask some questions of the knot or tourniquet: How tight was it? Could the victim have accomplished it themselves(suicide)? Is this something that took some time to think about and put together, or was it done in a hurry with materials found at the scene?

Note the nature and complexity of any knots or tourniquets, and try to identify them if possible. It may be possible to generate a narrow suspect pool from the type of knot used. In cases of suicidal strangulation, a single knot is almost always used. The tourniquet method, however, is used in both homicide and suicide cases. Remember also that the tourniquet method takes time to implement on an unwilling victim.

The term garroting is applicable in situations where a victim is attacked from behind without warning, overpowered, and killed. There is very little time or assailant/victim interaction. If an assailant employs a more time consuming method, what does this say about his perceptions of time? If the assailant attacks and kills with very little interaction with the victim, what does that say?

When thinking about the knot or tourniquet or the nature of the ligature itself as applied to the victim, the two most important questions to ask are:
1) What did the assailant take time to do? 2) What did the assailant not take time to do? This will establish what was important or not so important to this assailant during the attack.

THE LIGATURE PATTERN
"It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck, or associated fingernail marks, either from the victim attempting to remove the ligature or (together with finger- tip bruising) from the assailant attempting to secure the ligature and/or restrain the neck from moving or even attempting manual strangulation. The victim's clothing or necklace may also be caught in the ligature during a struggle and marks from these require careful evaluation."

"...If a thin ligature is used, there will be a very prominent deep mark encircling the neck."
___

Is any of this in John Ramsey's new book? I clicked this link because I thought it may have been released.
 
I"m having a little trouble following your sequence of events.

Because of the length of my post, I didn't go into the evidence around and outside JB's bedroom which suggested a panicked search for something; various drawers in two rooms were left half-opened, diapers hanging out of the open cabinet in the laundry area, etc. There was the kitchen knife on the washing machine and Burke's Swiss knife either on a counter in the basement or on the floor in the cellar room--I've read both. This makes me wonder if that's where the attack started.

The reason I feel the garrote was applied in the basement by the paint tray is because I'm attempting to logically follow actions we know happened: why would the killer run to the paint tray and get the paintbrush, break it in three pieces, then run back upstairs to tie it onto the cord? Then bring the body back to the basement outside the cellar door to finish the strangulation? There's where Smit said JB urinated; this matches with the urine on the front of the long johns, leading me to think that was from her bladder releasing at death. Why run back and forth and back and forth? Pencils, pens, kitchen utensils, etc.--all upstairs nearer to an attack that started on another floor.

The hair tied into both knots on the garrote got there because the cord was tied onto the neck, not first tied and then slipped over the head, like a necklace. I'm not sure why people think the knot at the neck wasn't a functional slipknot. I know the med. examiner described it otherwise, but he didn't take the time to examine and test the knots, I don't believe, nor was that his area of expertise. An expert in knots was brought in, from Canada, but we don't know what he concluded, so I did my own experiment. Working from the clear photo of the knot tied at on the wrist binding, I found the knot to not only work as a slip knot, I had to cut it off my leg, which I used to test it. If the killer(s) could tie one that way, why not also the critical knot at the neck?

Of course, I'm just guessing. Seems this case is just too complicated for my little brain, with all the lack of specific information where we need it, and the flood of disinformation which just obfuscates the truth.

Thanks for breaking down your thoughts. I appreciate it, as the more perspectives the better the chances of understanding the madness going on in the Hellhole that night.

KoldKase,
I"m having a little trouble following your sequence of events.
I'm a fan of KISS or Mr Occam. After her pineapple snack, someone sexually assaulted JonBenet, whacked her on the head, then cleaned her up, redressed her. Then decided she had been abducted and dumped her body in the wine-cellar. Wrote a ransom note, then dialled 911 shouting my baby is gone!

why would the killer run to the paint tray and get the paintbrush, break it in three pieces, then run back upstairs to tie it onto the cord?
mmm, why would the killer run upstairs to fetch longjohns then back down again to make sure JonBenet matches the R's version of events?

I think I was suggesting that the application of the paintbrush handle was a last minute adornment.


Why run back and forth and back and forth?
Indeed, why so? Why not nearly everything happening upstairs and only the application of the paintbrush handle occurring downstairs? Simply because that is where it was located.

That the paintbrush handle was located in the basement does not mandate that anything else happened in the basement?

The hair tied into both knots on the garrote got there because the cord was tied onto the neck, not first tied and then slipped over the head, like a necklace. I'm not sure why people think the knot at the neck wasn't a functional slipknot.
Well people keep inventing reasons for why their favorite theory is consistent. My observation is that the ligature device would not function as a garotte or EA device, due to the knotting and JonBenet's hair being entwined into the knotting. This does not prevent the cord being used as a ligature, which even Coroner Meyer asserts it was. I reckon the addition of the paintbrush handle was an afterthought, it did not play any part in JonBenet's initial asphyxiation.



Of course, I'm just guessing. Seems this case is just too complicated for my little brain, with all the lack of specific information where we need it, and the flood of disinformation which just obfuscates the truth.
Not really, its simple, remove the staged elements and focus on what is left and it will all fall into place.



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