John Ramsey's New Book

I'm with you on that one, KK. My question is, was she hit WITH something, or did SHE hit something? Werner Spitz made a damn fine case for the former, but I've just got this feeling, you know?

Of course, a child's skull is softer than an adults, not as strong, so I certainly have no way of knowing. But the direction of the 8 inch fracture, combined with the compressed area, implies it took a lot of force, whatever happened.

So I don't see how someone could have "thrown" her with that much force without other injuries showing up, like a broken neck caused by the force of her body colliding with whatever surfaces after the head had already impacted and stopped. Think of whiplash in a car accident, cause by the force of various parts of the body colliding at different times.

But there seems to be some brain injury consistent with her brain hitting her skull, causing bruising and tearing with some bleeding. DeeDee can describe that much better than I can.

This could have been from the force causing her head to slam forward from being hit so hard, perhaps, but also could be from shaking or a fall, from the discussion I remember.

I was re-reading some old reports on this injury, and as we know, Dr. Wecht was of the opinion she was near death when the skull fracture happened, which he accounted to little bleeding in the skull or swelling of the brain. But another expert in the same article disagreed, claiming serious brain injuries can have little bleeding or swelling. No wonder we can't figure this out. :waitasec:

I've never had it confirmed by any trustworthy source that there was a urine stain on the carpet by the cellar door.

I know Smit is always an iffy source, at best, but a few posts up the page here I've written why this seems plausible. It's not like we are ever going to see the case files, at any rate, so "best guess" is our standard.

Well said. And even then, it didn't really matter if it looked convincing to LE. It just had to look convincing to one person out of twelve.


I now wonder if the Ramseys ever worried about a jury at all. Somehow, I can see Patsy Ramsey having another one of her "visions": in this one, she saw them getting away with it, becoming famous victims of a foreign faction, and leading people to Christ in the name of JonBenet, with Patsy playing Mary, mother of Jesus/JonBenet. :dramaqueen: John got to play Job. Poor downtrodden Ramseys, keeping the Faith through their suffering, soon to be rewarded by Gawd in Heaven. :please:

And woe unto the ungodly wretches who got in their way on the trip there. :fuse:

Thing is, in this vision, Patsy was right: they got clean away with it.

Except for us who see the Light.
 
How do you come to the conclusion this was not a noose knot on the ligature?

The knot on the wrist binding was a slip knot, creating a noose. You can see the knot and make to test yourself.

I know Meyers reported from his autopsy it was a granny knot, but he was no expert and easily could have simply made a mistake.

We've never seen the report from the knot expert. I don't remember seeing any claims of what he found when he studied these knots, but I very well could have forgotten at this point.

Do you see any indication on the neck that the paintbrush or any type of "tourniquet" aide was inserted under the cord, twisting it as a tourniquet? I have never seen that or haven't come to that conclusion from the autopsy photos, at least. I haven't looked online for autopsy photos of how that type of bruising would look, but how could there not be some bruising from it with friction against the skin as it twisted the cord tighter and tighter?

Perhaps you've found this, and I'm interested in your insight on this, so thanks in advance.


To me, it looks like the kind of knot I'd use to tie a package, not a noose. I would think a noose knot would relax and loosen once there is no tension on it. Unlike a hanging victim, where the body's weight keeps the noose tight, JB was strangled lying down. A coroner can tell when someone has been hung. There was no evidence JB had been suspended. Someone here posted quite a while back how the ligature furrows would look different had she been hung, even from a chair or something low.
I see the "handle" being used to grasp that end of the cord and wrap the cord around her neck multiple times.
 
To me, it looks like the kind of knot I'd use to tie a package, not a noose. I would think a noose knot would relax and loosen once there is no tension on it. Unlike a hanging victim, where the body's weight keeps the noose tight, JB was strangled lying down. A coroner can tell when someone has been hung. There was no evidence JB had been suspended. Someone here posted quite a while back how the ligature furrows would look different had she been hung, even from a chair or something low.
I see the "handle" being used to grasp that end of the cord and wrap the cord around her neck multiple times.

DeeDee249,
Someone here posted quite a while back how the ligature furrows would look different had she been hung, even from a chair or something low.
I see the "handle" being used to grasp that end of the cord and wrap the cord around her neck multiple times.
Yes, if gravity or some form of suspension was involved the furrow would take on some kind of extended V pattern.

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Since JonBenet's own hair was entangled in that knot on the stick at the end of the cord, if it was only for adornment/staging - the stick part - I wonder how her hair got entangeld in the knot? ...especially since that part of the cord was so long. If it was an afterthought, wouldn't the person have just put the stick while she is lying there dead, holding it away from her and all?

I think the hair entangled in the knot of the stick lends more to the possibility of that stick being used, especially in close proximity to her neck...else how did the hair get tangled in it?

Again, this does not mean a Ramsey didn't do it...

Whaleshark,
Well what you ask is precisely why it was never used as a garrote. If it had JonBenet's hair would have been pulled out at the roots and at the front of her neck there would have been a very obvious necklace impression!

The actual asphyxiation of JonBenet need not have happened in the basement. Only the paintbrush handle allows you to assume this.

The paintbrush handle, imo, is staging, it was not required to asphyxiate JonBenet, the cord alone was sufficient.

Ask yourself why was the paintbrush handle broken, why not just use the whole? You would attain more force or torsion with a complete handle, using halve a handle complicates constructing the garrote.

This is the reason JonBenet's hair is entwined into the knotting, e.g. because the handle was applied last, probably after the other half had been used to assault JonBenet.

However it is interpreted the paintbrush handle is a staged artifact, so its not safe to make inferences from it.

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Pretty much everything we discuss is speculation, since no one here with whom I'm familiar has ever held even one evidence report in his/her hand. Apply all the theories you please, but as soon as the element of speculation-based opinions is added in, no one can say anything is certain.




I use the term "garrote" loosely, because it has been used since the crime to describe the cord/handle construction that without a doubt, to 100% certainty, based on the evidence and autopsy, killed JonBenet Ramsey.

We can google all day about what is a true garrote. In the end, it's shorter and easier to call the cord that strangled the child, with an attached "handle" tied onto it, a garrote.

As for how it functioned, that has been argued from the beginning. Since we've had so many sources and lots of them contradict each other, I've turned to the knot anyone can clearly see and duplicate in photos of the wrist bindings. It's easy to construct and it works as a slip knot, which I've already said many times. If people don't want to do that simple test, then I guess they don't.

But until someone can make a convincing argument to me that the person or persons who tied that slip knot on that wrist binding for some reason used a different knot on the cord around her neck when that same knot would have worked just as the one on the cord did--and strangled the child to death, I believe I'm sticking with what my own eyes can see.

If the "handle" wasn't used to pull the cord around the neck, engaging the slip knot until the cord rolled up the neck, tighter and tighter, then embedded into the upper, smaller section under the head but passing over the delicate neck bones without damaging them, then it wasn't. But we don't know that, do we?

People tend to believe what suits their theory, but we really don't know for certain until experts testify at trial and a jury becomes finder of fact. That's not going to happen. So we have Meyer's report stating the knot was an overhand/Granny knot--but he probably did not stop the autopsy to do an expert evaluation of it like the Canadian Mountie knot-expert eventually did some time after the autopsy, if memory serves--and I've never seen a whisper as to what Mr. Tassle determined about the knots; and we have the wrist binding pictures which prove to me that whoever was tying these knots full well could construct a deadly slip knot--and did so on the wrist binding.

Occam's Razor: if there's one clearly in sight, the one we can't see clearly but which functioned the same probably was the same knot. And that's my speculation based on evidence, not on searching to substantiate a theory for some reason I'm sure I don't know about.




Staged: the duct tape was put on the body after the child was bludgeoned and strangled. The proof is in the saliva that drooled down her face and dried when it turned to the right. The proof of that is in the autopsy photos where the tape residue can be observed over the dried saliva. There would have been no saliva drooling down her face if the duct tape had been applied before she was unconscious, at least. Since the direction of the drool flows down the right side of the face, it follows it did so when her head was turned into the position in which it was found when rigor mortis had set in at approx. 1 pm--to the right. That equates with the duct tape being staged after death.

Staged: the wrist bindings were clearly not put on the child to stop her from escape. They were loose with long cord between wrists; there is no post mortem indication they restrained her in any way or that she ever pulled against them, either. Therefore, the wrist binding was staging.

So was the "handle" solely for staging? She died from being strangled by the cord to which it was tied. So the jury is out.

The paint chip and basement carpet fiber found at autopsy on the child's chin came from paint which matched that in Patsy's tray. The remaining brush end of the paintbrush used to construct the "handle" of the ligature was found in the same paint tray, in the basement. Attempting simplicity, I can't conclude that someone ran back and forth and back and forth, rather than brought the child down to the basement where evidence repeatedly indicates various elements of the strangulation probably occurred.

An infinite number of theories through the years tell me maybe the case is not as simple as you think. The evidence tells the tale, but as has been observed, there's nearly too much evidence in this case.

KoldKase,
So was the "handle" solely for staging? She died from being strangled by the cord to which it was tied. So the jury is out.
Sure it was. The paintbrush handle is redundant, it was not required to stage a basement homicide, the cord alone would be sufficent. So why use it, lets assume it was not applied upstairs, so then we can infer it was an afterthought, a last minute pragmatic decision. Why so, I would speculate the original intention may have been to use one halve of the brush to assault JonBenet, with the remaining halve simply being used as an adornment possibly for shock effect.

The paint chip and basement carpet fiber found at autopsy on the child's chin came from paint which matched that in Patsy's tray. The remaining brush end of the paintbrush used to construct the "handle" of the ligature was found in the same paint tray, in the basement. Attempting simplicity, I can't conclude that someone ran back and forth and back and forth, rather than brought the child down to the basement where evidence repeatedly indicates various elements of the strangulation probably occurred.
Sure but simply because you have matching forensic evidence that can be traced to the basement, it does not follow that JonBenet must have been asphyxiated in the basement?

An infinite number of theories through the years tell me maybe the case is not as simple as you think. The evidence tells the tale, but as has been observed, there's nearly too much evidence in this case.
Well it not a simple case. But if you accept that JonBenet's person was staged, not the wine-cellar per-se. That the wine-cellar was in effect a dump site. Then with this dichotomy you can focus upon JonBenet remove what you consider to be the staged items, which for me allows the conclusion, most of the important events occurred upstairs.

But I accept that the staging can make it appear it may have taken place in the basement. This is why the staging was undertaken e.g. to break any percieved links with the upstairs primary crime-scene?


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UKGuy,
I don't see how I am assisting the Ramsey case by stating the ligature may have been used suffocate her by using it more like a tourniquet. That doesn't mean that a Ramsey didn't do it!

It's quite infuriating how you belittle my points and state that I am saying something that I am not.

I would agree that there is staging and that the wine cellar is a dump spot. I just think it is also possible the ligature was used to suffocate her tourniquet style (and that is still a definition of garrotte - it's not absolute one way or the other)...

...AND, it can still be a Ramsey who did all those things.

Just because I conjecture that the stick on the ligature may not be part of the staging but part of the tool to kill her does not mean I am assisting the Ramsey case, if I think a Ramsey used it to kill her anyway!

But whatever.

Whaleshark,
I apologise, I probably used the wrong phrase, I just meant the Ramsey's may have intended it as staging.

I would agree that there is staging and that the wine cellar is a dump spot. I just think it is also possible the ligature was used to suffocate her tourniquet style (and that is still a definition of garrotte - it's not absolute one way or the other)...

...AND, it can still be a Ramsey who did all those things.
I do not think the paintbrush handle was employed to asphyxiate JonBenet. I could be wrong, you might be 100% correct, but I reckon the paintbrush handle as seen in those autopsy photos could never work as an EA, AEA, or garrote device. If had done JonBenet would have suffered far more extensive damage to her neck, e.g. broken hyoid bone, crushed muscles in her neck, none of this occurred!

To suffocate or asphyxiate JonBenet the paintbrush handle was not needed.



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To me, it looks like the kind of knot I'd use to tie a package, not a noose. I would think a noose knot would relax and loosen once there is no tension on it. Unlike a hanging victim, where the body's weight keeps the noose tight, JB was strangled lying down. A coroner can tell when someone has been hung. There was no evidence JB had been suspended. Someone here posted quite a while back how the ligature furrows would look different had she been hung, even from a chair or something low.
I see the "handle" being used to grasp that end of the cord and wrap the cord around her neck multiple times.

I repeat...again:

Find a picture of the knot on the wrist cord--it can be clearly seen and is easy to make from the photo. Use any kind of cord you have--a shoe lace will do.

Loop the cord around your thigh at the knee, make the knot with one long end. Pull the long end. But first, have some scissors or even put a ruler or something long under the cord to make it easy to cut without hurting yourself to get it off, because it will not only grab and hold as the pressure from your flesh increases as you tighten the noose, but you may have trouble getting it off afterward.

Like I sad...again: if people won't even try this simple of a demonstration, I can't explain it any clearer.

The slip knot holds. Fast. Just like the one found on the body around the neck.
 
To suffocate or asphyxiate JonBenet the paintbrush handle was not needed.

That is probably true, that it was not needed. But then I suppose if it was needed, every death by ligature strangulation would have a stick at the end of a cord.

But there are all kinds of deaths by strangulations, and even all kinds of garrottes...which I pointed out earlier.

One may simply strangle by wrapping the open end of the cord around their hand; one may strangle with a cord by using it as a spanish windlass; one may strangle with a cord by making a noose, hanging a victim, and even by tourniquet.

Which one of these methods is the most efficient? The least needed? Because one didn't need to make a tourniquet device to kill someone, does that mean they didn't do it? The reason John Wayne Gacy used a tourniquet style ligature was because that is all he knew - what he was taught in boyscouts, so it was what he used. Those are his words. Now, it wasn't needed, true, he could have just used a different method. So because a tourniquet type ligature was used, does that mean he didn't do it, or that it was only an afterthought because he didn't need to use it in his killings?

Arthur Allen Shore switched to using a tourniquet style ligature because he hurt his finger without using one in his previous killings.

Maybe the person didn't 'need' it, but maybe they had their reasons, like the killers above.

Just because it wasn't necessarily needed, doesn't mean it wasn't used in some way anyway, is all I'm saying...

...But you could be totally right. The stick may not have been used at all, and was only added just for looks, or because a Ramsey thought it added shock value. I don't know.

I'm just not dismissing the use of it because it was not 'needed' though.

Because, by that logic, no strangulation death was ever committed with a tourniquet, because it wouldn't have been needed... and that's not true either.
 
That is probably true, that it was not needed. But then I suppose if it was needed, every death by ligature strangulation would have a stick at the end of a cord.

But there are all kinds of deaths by strangulations, and even all kinds of garrottes...which I pointed out earlier.

One may simply strangle by wrapping the open end of the cord around their hand; one may strangle with a cord by using it as a spanish windlass; one may strangle with a cord by making a noose, hanging a victim, and even by tourniquet.

Which one of these methods is the most efficient? The least needed? Because one didn't need to make a tourniquet device to kill someone, does that mean they didn't do it? The reason John Wayne Gacy used a tourniquet style ligature was because that is all he knew - what he was taught in boyscouts, so it was what he used. Those are his words. Now, it wasn't needed, true, he could have just used a different method. So because a tourniquet type ligature was used, does that mean he didn't do it, or that it was only an afterthought because he didn't need to use it in his killings?

Arthur Allen Shore switched to using a tourniquet style ligature because he hurt his finger without using one in his previous killings.

Maybe the person didn't 'need' it, but maybe they had their reasons, like the killers above.

Just because it wasn't necessarily needed, doesn't mean it wasn't used in some way anyway, is all I'm saying...

...But you could be totally right. The stick may not have been used at all, and was only added just for looks, or because a Ramsey thought it added shock value. I don't know.

I'm just not dismissing the use of it because it was not 'needed' though.

Because, by that logic, no strangulation death was ever committed with a tourniquet, because it wouldn't have been needed... and that's not true either.

Whaleshark,
But do we not know how many children under the age of ten have ever been asphyxiated using a garrote device?

Citing bona fide examples are not counter-examples because they of themselves cannot rule out staging.

Also the device found around JonBenet's neck was not a tourniquet, the end result is strangulation, but the technique is different from that used on JonBenet.

But there are all kinds of deaths by strangulations, and even all kinds of garrottes...which I pointed out earlier.
There are three main types of strangulation, e.g.

Hanging — Suspension from a cord wound around the neck.

Ligature strangulation — Strangulation without suspension using some form of cord-like object.

Manual strangulation — Strangulation using the fingers or other extremity.

JonBenet was ligature strangled, no tourniquet was applied, it was a straight forward classic ligature compression of the neck, done from behind.

In our discussion the only controversy is whether the broken paintbrush handle played any role in the neck compression, thus transforming the ligature into a garrote?

The forensic evidence does not support the notion that the paintbrush handle was used to ligature strangle JonBenet.

The word garrote in spanish applies specifically to the rod used to assist in strangulation. In the USA, the word garrote is used in absence of the actual rod, to apply to different strangulation devices e.g. chain, rope, scarf, wire or fishing line.

In JonBenet's case the presence of the rod suggests someone went to the bother of constructing garrote, when only a ligature was required, particularly if we think JonBenet was comatose?

So as you point out Maybe the person didn't 'need' it, but maybe they had their reasons, like the killers above. Yes and what I am suggesting is that the reason was staging.

Some people recognizing that the forensic evidence does not fully support a garrote strangulation suggest JonBenet's death was caused by a carotid sinus reflex death or vagus nerve.

My incomplete understanding is that the latter precipitates a cardiac arrest? Whilst the autopsy cites lack of oxygen in the brain as the main factor, both head trauma and cerebral ischemia the latter caused by ligature strangulation of the carotid arteries or jugular veins, contribute to this.

So until I see forensic evidence that supports the notion that the garrote was a fully functioning device and was used as suggested. I think it was an adornment applied for staging purposes known only to the stager?


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But do we not know how many children under the age of ten have ever been asphyxiated using a garrote device?

No, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Citing bona fide examples are not counter-examples because they of themselves cannot rule out staging.

Staging is ruled out in those particular cases because the killers themselves explained why they used that particular type of ligature.

Also the device found around JonBenet's neck was not a tourniquet, the end result is strangulation, but the technique is different from that used on JonBenet.

Well, but everyone has their own theory, correct?

There are three main types of strangulation, e.g.

Hanging — Suspension from a cord wound around the neck.

Ligature strangulation — Strangulation without suspension using some form of cord-like object.

Manual strangulation — Strangulation using the fingers or other extremity.dn

I know this, but because every variant is not listed in the main types, does not mean they have not been used at some time or another. And a tourniquet falls under ligature strangulation anyway.

JonBenet was ligature strangled, no tourniquet was applied, it was a straight forward classic ligature compression of the neck, done from behind.

Okay, and the handle could have been used for that as well, to have something to hold onto, to pull as well. Or after wrapping around her neck a few times, then pulled while holding the handle. Doesn't mean the handle did not have to be used to pull.


In our discussion the only controversy is whether the broken paintbrush handle played any role in the neck compression, thus transforming the ligature into a garrote?

No and yes - it matters because you are saying it was only part of the staging, when it could have been part of the device. It also was a garrotte whether or not there was a handle. Again, people are getting hung up on the exact term of what a garrotte absolutely is or is not. I know what most people in the US consider a garrotte to be, but it originated as a completely different device... So to say it was absolutely not a 'garrotte' or used in such a way so it is only staging, is not a reason to say it was staging only. Again, we shouldn't look at if it was used as a garrotte, but the possiblity if it was used at all. I know, you say it wasn't. ...And maybe it wasn't.

The forensic evidence does not support the notion that the paintbrush handle was used to ligature strangle JonBenet.

Okay. But if it was so simple for everyone then everyone would all agree on the same theory I suppose.

The word garrote in spanish applies specifically to the rod used to assist in strangulation. In the USA, the word garrote is used in absence of the actual rod, to apply to different strangulation devices e.g. chain, rope, scarf, wire or fishing line.

I looked up the history on garrotte too, which is why I said what I said. And that's my point - since it has multiple meanings, that word does not need to be used or considered as a reason to decide whether or not the handle was used to strangle her. One person's definition of garrotte can be different than another's - and the ligature was not used in one person's definition of it
as someone else's. If it wasn't used as the American definition of garrotte, though, still doesn't mean it wasn't used as a tourniquet.

In JonBenet's case the presence of the rod suggests someone went to the bother of constructing garrote, when only a ligature was required, particularly if we think JonBenet was comatose?

Why do you think they were constructing the American definition of a 'garrote'? Maybe it was not that definition of garrote. Maybe it was considered something else to the person. See where the issue comes in that if you think it was supposed to be what the American definition of garrote is, and you know it wasn't used that way, then it must not have been that, so it was only staging? Maybe it was not used or staged to be what you consider the American definition of garrote is. That's what I am saying...

So as you point out Maybe the person didn't 'need' it, but maybe they had their reasons, like the killers above. Yes and what I am suggesting is that the reason was staging.

Yes, I know. It could be just for staging....

But it could also be what Koldkase said.

I don't have a definite theory. I am not sure if it was only for staging or not, so I'm not even arguing that it WAS a tourniquet, or WAS the American definition of garrote. I'm only arguing the possibility that the handle may have been made to use in the strangulation....but it may not have been.

Some people recognizing that the forensic evidence does not fully support a garrote strangulation suggest JonBenet's death was caused by a carotid sinus reflex death or vagus nerve.

My incomplete understanding is that the latter precipitates a cardiac arrest? Whilst the autopsy cites lack of oxygen in the brain as the main factor, both head trauma and cerebral ischemia the latter caused by ligature strangulation of the carotid arteries or jugular veins, contribute to this.

So until I see forensic evidence that supports the notion that the garrote was a fully functioning device and was used as suggested. I think it was an adornment applied for staging purposes known only to the stager?

Again, that's assuming that it was constructed to look like a fully functioning 'American definition' of a 'garrote'. I never said that, and I think that is the problem with naming it what people think it was supposed to be... but who knows.
 
No, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.



Staging is ruled out in those particular cases because the killers themselves explained why they used that particular type of ligature.



Well, but everyone has their own theory, correct?



I know this, but because every variant is not listed in the main types, does not mean they have not been used at some time or another. And a tourniquet falls under ligature strangulation anyway.



Okay, and the handle could have been used for that as well, to have something to hold onto, to pull as well. Or after wrapping around her neck a few times, then pulled while holding the handle. Doesn't mean the handle did not have to be used to pull.




No and yes - it matters because you are saying it was only part of the staging, when it could have been part of the device. It also was a garrotte whether or not there was a handle. Again, people are getting hung up on the exact term of what a garrotte absolutely is or is not. I know what most people in the US consider a garrotte to be, but it originated as a completely different device... So to say it was absolutely not a 'garrotte' or used in such a way so it is only staging, is not a reason to say it was staging only. Again, we shouldn't look at if it was used as a garrotte, but the possiblity if it was used at all. I know, you say it wasn't. ...And maybe it wasn't.



Okay. But if it was so simple for everyone then everyone would all agree on the same theory I suppose.



I looked up the history on garrotte too, which is why I said what I said. And that's my point - since it has multiple meanings, that word does not need to be used or considered as a reason to decide whether or not the handle was used to strangle her. One person's definition of garrotte can be different than another's - and the ligature was not used in one person's definition of it
as someone else's. If it wasn't used as the American definition of garrotte, though, still doesn't mean it wasn't used as a tourniquet.



Why do you think they were constructing the American definition of a 'garrote'? Maybe it was not that definition of garrote. Maybe it was considered something else to the person. See where the issue comes in that if you think it was supposed to be what the American definition of garrote is, and you know it wasn't used that way, then it must not have been that, so it was only staging? Maybe it was not used or staged to be what you consider the American definition of garrote is. That's what I am saying...



Yes, I know. It could be just for staging....

But it could also be what Koldkase said.

I don't have a definite theory. I am not sure if it was only for staging or not, so I'm not even arguing that it WAS a tourniquet, or WAS the American definition of garrote. I'm only arguing the possibility that the handle may have been made to use in the strangulation....but it may not have been.



Again, that's assuming that it was constructed to look like a fully functioning 'American definition' of a 'garrote'. I never said that, and I think that is the problem with naming it what people think it was supposed to be... but who knows.

Whaleshark,
No, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
Well ask KoldKase to confirm and I think the only child to have been killed with a garrote was JonBenet Ramsey!

Staging is ruled out in those particular cases because the killers themselves explained why they used that particular type of ligature.
We know this. And that is why citing these cases does not mean staging is ruled out in JonBenet's case.

Well, but everyone has their own theory, correct?
Sure but everyone's theory then has to be consistent with the forensic evidence. Those theories that wish to inject either a garrote, tourniquet, EA, or AEA device, are inconsistent. They make for great reading, but fall down on closer inspection.

And a tourniquet falls under ligature strangulation anyway.
It may do, but simple observation of the autopsy pictures tell us the cord was used to compress JonBenet's neck, the resultant furrow is evidence of this. A tourniquet employs a different technique.

Okay, and the handle could have been used for that as well, to have something to hold onto, to pull as well. Or after wrapping around her neck a few times, then pulled while holding the handle. Doesn't mean the handle did not have to be used to pull.
Check the autopsy photographs. If the paintbrush handle had been used then JonBenet's hair would have been pulled out at her roots, there would have been mark left by the necklace compression, and her internal neck structures would have been further damaged. None of these things happened.

No and yes - it matters because you are saying it was only part of the staging, when it could have been part of the device. It also was a garrotte whether or not there was a handle. Again, people are getting hung up on the exact term of what a garrotte absolutely is or is not. I know what most people in the US consider a garrotte to be, but it originated as a completely different device... So to say it was absolutely not a 'garrotte' or used in such a way so it is only staging, is not a reason to say it was staging only. Again, we shouldn't look at if it was used as a garrotte, but the possiblity if it was used at all. I know, you say it wasn't. ...And maybe it wasn't.
No, you are playing around with words. Without the painbrush handle it is simply a ligature, with the paintbrush handle it becomes a garrote. The question then becomes was the ligature plus paintbrush handle a bona fide garrote or simply one more artifact that like many others on JonBenet's person which had been staged?

Okay. But if it was so simple for everyone then everyone would all agree on the same theory I suppose.
Not quite, other theories might be consistent with the forensic evidence. e.g. Manual strangulation preceded the ligature strangulation, resulting in the markings at the front of her neck.

I looked up the history on garrotte too, which is why I said what I said. And that's my point - since it has multiple meanings, that word does not need to be used or considered as a reason to decide whether or not the handle was used to strangle her. One person's definition of garrotte can be different than another's - and the ligature was not used in one person's definition of it
as someone else's. If it wasn't used as the American definition of garrotte, though, still doesn't mean it wasn't used as a tourniquet.
Its not a question of other peoples definition of what a garrote is. Precisely because the paintbrush handle was added to the ligature it becomes a garrote. What you are suggesting about definitions would apply if there was no paintbrush handle present. Then you could name what was wound around her neck as a garrote, and I could name it a ligature, and we could both be loosely correct.

The stager, e.g. this person existed because we can locate other items on JonBenet's person which were staged, went to the bother of:

1. Breaking a paintbrush handle.

2. Adding it to the ligature by knotting.

Neither of these were required to asphyxiate JonBenet. And if a garrote was needed then the whole paintbrush handle was sufficient.

JonBenet may have been ligature strangled upstairs with the paintbrush handle added down in the basement, just like other items, for the purpose of staging.

Again, that's assuming that it was constructed to look like a fully functioning 'American definition' of a 'garrote'. I never said that, and I think that is the problem with naming it what people think it was supposed to be... but who knows.
Its not the 'American definition' of a 'garrote'. Which would encompass the mafia method e.g. piano wire etc. Its the addition of the paintbrush handle that is critical. You could apply the 'American definition' of garrote to just about any device wrapped around her neck where a rod was absent.

The breaking of the paintbrush handle and its addition to the ligature cord turns the device into a garrote. But check the autopsy photographs, note the hair embedded into the knotting, how the cord runs over the necklace, and you should be able to observe it could never function as a garrote, suggesting there was a simple ligature strangulation followed by the addition of the broken paintbrush handle, which may have further constricted JonBenet's neck?
 
After reading all this, all I've really thought about was that when a girl had her hair pulled at school...she screamed.

Now we know hair was in the rope/knot...but was hair actually ripped from the scalp?
If the neighbour heard a scream, I'd always imagined it was either seeing someone about to smack JBR over the head, or if something was being inserted somewhere it shouldn't.

Now I'm wondering if a nice big twist might have pulled hair and prompted a scream.
 
No, you are playing around with words. Without the painbrush handle it is simply a ligature, with the paintbrush handle it becomes a garrote. The question then becomes was the ligature plus paintbrush handle a bona fide garrote or simply one more artifact that like many others on JonBenet's person which had been staged?

I'm not playing around with my words. This is why I included the article of information from this site earlier, which I guess you didn't read:
http://www.donrearic.com/main.html

Don’t take it from me – take it from this guy who trains people:

Some people say, "Well, the garrotte is a..." and then they define it to the exclusion of anything else. The simple fact of the matter is, a "Garrotte" was an execution device that was utilized in Spain up until the mid-1970s. A few other countries used it now and again. And there were many different types of garrottes used as execution devices.

The important thing to remember is, if someone says, "No, that’s not a garrotte, this is a garrotte..." And they are speaking in absolutes or anything other than an execution device, they’re incorrect. More on that later.

Any belt, length of rope, cord, a telephone cord, whatever is at hand, can be a garrotte. You can carry a very strong bandana or scarf with that being carried with the intent to be used as a flexible weapon. A jacket or light coat can be used as a garrotte, like the belt, it is a common, every day item. The everyday items that are all around us."

Since your point is that adding the stick made it a garrote and a garrotte only --
The breaking of the paintbrush handle and its addition to the ligature cord turns the device into a garrote. But check the autopsy photographs, note the hair embedded into the knotting, how the cord runs over the necklace, and you should be able to observe it could never function as a garrote, suggesting there was a simple ligature strangulation followed by the addition of the broken paintbrush handle, which may have further constricted JonBenet's neck?

Then answer me this, please -

Assuming your definition of a simple ligature strangulation is that the cord was pulled only by hand to tighten and asphyxiate her, you are saying:
Cord was knotted around neck, killer pulled long end of cord to tighten with hand only (because it is all that is needed), and she is dead.

But if the stick is put on the end of the cord, could the person not do the same exact thing as above? No, because it’s not allowed, because it’s not necessary? Why can’t the killer have pulled the cord with the stick at the end to possibly use it as a handle/grip?

Your logic is no - it became a garrotte when the stick was added – only meant to look like it was to be used a certain way, therefore cannot then be used for killing any other way - because there is only one way to use the garrotte – and that was not necessary in this case.

Okay....but even if not in a tourniquet fashion – even if not that, why couldn't it have been used for pulling the cord in the simple strangulation method also, that you suggest, just as if the person hadn't used a stick in the handle end?

You then said that if that was the case, then, the stick would do just fine for its purposes without needing to be broken down to that size.
Well, that is also true - that it didn't need to be broken down to that size for that purpose. But that’s assuming the paintbrush was only broken for the purposes of using it as the handle or tourniquet or garrotte purpose, though, doesn't it?

What if the brush was broken for another reason originally/entirely?
What if it was already broken or whittled by Burke (or someone else) before being used in the ligature? I know there were shards in the area, and there was the knife found down in that area of the house.
But when was the paintbrush broken exactly? In what sequence, at what time, where?
If part of the paintbrush stick was found inside JonBenet, maybe it was broken for using on her first, then used in the simple ligature strangulation? Maybe it was already in the paint tray in a broken state, and had been whittled or broken at a completely different time.
Maybe that’s even why they can’t find the other piece of the paintbrush?

When you are only considering the simplest scenarios you are not taking all the possibilities into account. If you only think in terms of what was needed, and discount things because they aren't what may/may not be generally considered necessary - you do not consider what possibly could be important to that particular perp. or what all possible unique sequences of events may have occurred - outside of what was only necessary or needed for that crime - as it looks in its simplest form.

For example, the tourniquet-type ligature was not needed for A. Shore to commit stranglings (as I pointed out before - but bear with me), and he did not use one initially -- until he hurt his finger and switched to a different method. Should an investigator not have considered the possibility that the latter stranglings done with a tourniquet were by him, or were only staging for some shock effect, because they should not have been needed, and because they were done differently than his original MO?
Occam's would tell you so, right?
...Except that all possibilities are not brought into account then, are they? Surely the lead investigator would have thought it absurd if a rookie suggested that maybe it was A. Shore doing those killings too, but that maybe A. Shore just had to switch his MO for some reason, like maybe if he hurt his finger or something? No doubt the lead investigator would have made a laughing stock out of the new rookie....
But that is what happened, and it was not staging, and it was not absurd.
If Arthur had never said why he had switched, though, they never would have known or considered that particular circumstance. And how could they know?

But if they never even allow that something other than the simplest of simple explanations are to be considered, then they are never open to any other possibilities either....


Here's something to consider when deciding to use Occam's Razor -
(but you probably won't read this either):

Excerpt from the book Crime Reconstruction by W. Jerry Chisum and Brent E. Turvey:

Oversimplification and Occam’s Razor

“Before we can discuss crime reconstruction practice standards, we must deconstruct the popular yet mistaken assertion that it is a simple and certain enterprise based solely on careful observation and experience. This is an oversimplification. Oversimplification occurs when a complex situation is described in simplistic terms that neglect its complexity. It can happen out of ignorance or out of a desire to achieve a greater measure of certainty than would be possible by a consideration of all the facts and information. These days oversimplification has become commonplace in entertainment, political rhetoric, and even journalism. But it has no place in the justice system.

Oversimplification is too common a vice in the forensic disciplines, from scene processing, to laboratory analysis, to crime reconstruction. It manifests in the supplanting of a formal scientific education with short courses, rote technical training, and learning on the job. It manifests with appeals to experience instead of a full investigation and appreciation of scientific fact. It manifests in the form of appeals to “common sense” for the sake of intellectual ease. It manifests when reconstructionists admonish others to not get “bogged down by all the facts,” when these facts provide the context needed for an informed and accurate interpretation of evidence and events. It manifests in these forms and others, wherever there is a desired conclusion and the full weight of the scientific method is perceived to be long way or the wrong way.

The Razor

Reconstructionists with a basic notion of logic and reasoning might invoke Occam’s razor to defend oversimplified interpretations. They might suggest that the scientific method reveals simplicity and that complexity relates to direct improbability – the more complex a theory, the less probable, given Occam’s razor. This would be a misunderstanding, and an abuse, of the concept.

Occam’s razor is an often-misstated principle that, ironically, has been reduced for mass consumption to the point of misapplication. Not uncommonly, it is stated as something along the lines of “all things being equal, the simplest explanation is most often the correct one”. Although this interpretation of Occam’s razor sounds good and has the virtue of popping up in a television show or movie now and again, it is inaccurate.

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate. Translation: Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily or plurality should not be posited without necessity. In the 14th century, a Franciscan friar and philosopher named William of Occam (a.k.a. Ockham; 1288-1348) used this principle so frequently in his writings that modern scientists and logicians have come to call it “Occam’s razor.” It is a useful concept and has been adapted to provide a basis for scientific modeling and theory building. Generally, it may be summoned as a reminder to choose the least blended hypotheses from any otherwise equivalent test models or reasoning, and to remove the extraneous and the nonessential from subsequent interpretations.

The secret to applying Occam’s razor is determining what of one’s hypothesis is necessary in interpretation and what is not. Occam, for example, assumed the existence of God in all modeling and theory building. Not all modern scientists would be willing to make this assumption, nor would most be eager to factor it into their reconstructions of crime.

Simplified, but not Simpler

Occam’s razor demands fewer blended theories, fewer assumptions, and the eradication of phenomenology. This is a far cry from the fatuousness of “don’t’ get bogged down by the facts” and “the simplest explanation is most likely correct.” Occam’s razor and its progeny are important tools, but should not be used as a substitute for reason or as an excuse to ignore relevant information because it makes a preferred conclusion easier to prove.
We would do better to recall Albert Einstein’s cautionary, which provides, “everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler.”

In other words, we are encouraged to embrace both the complexity of reality and the simplicity of direct logical reasoning without irrelevant encumbrances.


....On the surface it may not seem like a bad way to approach a reconstruction – go to the crime scene, look at the evidence, make observations, call them facts, and that is a reconstruction. Simple.

But simplicity is actually the problem here, as several crucial steps are absent from this method. The bare observation of a crime scene technician are painted as factual interpretation of events, and it is further suggested that this be offered as “factual evidence” of a reconstruction in court. This is not just misleading, it is dangerous to the cause of justice.

The first problem is that such an approach advocates a confirmatory mind-set, intentionally or otherwise. There is no accounting for how facts are to be separated from assumptions....”
____

P.S. - no matter how simple or complex this crime is, I am not advocating more complexity in assistance to an IDI case... simple does not have to equate to RDI and Complex to IDI - I think that is a Lou Smit and co-conspirator driven fallacy.... It could (and probably is) as complicated as all get-out, and still be RDI...
 
I think the paintbrush handle was used to pull the cord tight after it was wound around her neck a few times, but there are still some puzzling aspects to this, though. Why break the brush at all? There certainly didn't seem to be a need to have a "handle" of a specific length. Why not use the whole paintbrush? If you wanted to use a piece for a sexual assault, why not use one of the several other brushes available right there in the paint tote? One piece is missing, as least as far as is public knowledge. Two pieces are accounted for- the piece tied to cord, the brush end, found replaced in the tote (there's that instinctive act of "replacing" an item where it belongs again- the unused paintbrush part put back in place in the tote where it belonged is just like the Sharpie pen used to write the note and then replaced back into the holder where it belonged). To me, this "replacing" is an automatic reflex-like behavior that has Patsy written all over it.
 
I'm not playing around with my words. This is why I included the article of information from this site earlier, which I guess you didn't read:
http://www.donrearic.com/main.html

Don’t take it from me – take it from this guy who trains people:

Some people say, "Well, the garrotte is a..." and then they define it to the exclusion of anything else. The simple fact of the matter is, a "Garrotte" was an execution device that was utilized in Spain up until the mid-1970s. A few other countries used it now and again. And there were many different types of garrottes used as execution devices.

The important thing to remember is, if someone says, "No, that’s not a garrotte, this is a garrotte..." And they are speaking in absolutes or anything other than an execution device, they’re incorrect. More on that later.

Any belt, length of rope, cord, a telephone cord, whatever is at hand, can be a garrotte. You can carry a very strong bandana or scarf with that being carried with the intent to be used as a flexible weapon. A jacket or light coat can be used as a garrotte, like the belt, it is a common, every day item. The everyday items that are all around us."

Since your point is that adding the stick made it a garrote and a garrotte only --


Then answer me this, please -

Assuming your definition of a simple ligature strangulation is that the cord was pulled only by hand to tighten and asphyxiate her, you are saying:
Cord was knotted around neck, killer pulled long end of cord to tighten with hand only (because it is all that is needed), and she is dead.

But if the stick is put on the end of the cord, could the person not do the same exact thing as above? No, because it’s not allowed, because it’s not necessary? Why can’t the killer have pulled the cord with the stick at the end to possibly use it as a handle/grip?

Your logic is no - it became a garrotte when the stick was added – only meant to look like it was to be used a certain way, therefore cannot then be used for killing any other way - because there is only one way to use the garrotte – and that was not necessary in this case.

Okay....but even if not in a tourniquet fashion – even if not that, why couldn't it have been used for pulling the cord in the simple strangulation method also, that you suggest, just as if the person hadn't used a stick in the handle end?

You then said that if that was the case, then, the stick would do just fine for its purposes without needing to be broken down to that size.
Well, that is also true - that it didn't need to be broken down to that size for that purpose. But that’s assuming the paintbrush was only broken for the purposes of using it as the handle or tourniquet or garrotte purpose, though, doesn't it?

What if the brush was broken for another reason originally/entirely?
What if it was already broken or whittled by Burke (or someone else) before being used in the ligature? I know there were shards in the area, and there was the knife found down in that area of the house.
But when was the paintbrush broken exactly? In what sequence, at what time, where?
If part of the paintbrush stick was found inside JonBenet, maybe it was broken for using on her first, then used in the simple ligature strangulation? Maybe it was already in the paint tray in a broken state, and had been whittled or broken at a completely different time.
Maybe that’s even why they can’t find the other piece of the paintbrush?

When you are only considering the simplest scenarios you are not taking all the possibilities into account. If you only think in terms of what was needed, and discount things because they aren't what may/may not be generally considered necessary - you do not consider what possibly could be important to that particular perp. or what all possible unique sequences of events may have occurred - outside of what was only necessary or needed for that crime - as it looks in its simplest form.

For example, the tourniquet-type ligature was not needed for A. Shore to commit stranglings (as I pointed out before - but bear with me), and he did not use one initially -- until he hurt his finger and switched to a different method. Should an investigator not have considered the possibility that the latter stranglings done with a tourniquet were by him, or were only staging for some shock effect, because they should not have been needed, and because they were done differently than his original MO?
Occam's would tell you so, right?
...Except that all possibilities are not brought into account then, are they? Surely the lead investigator would have thought it absurd if a rookie suggested that maybe it was A. Shore doing those killings too, but that maybe A. Shore just had to switch his MO for some reason, like maybe if he hurt his finger or something? No doubt the lead investigator would have made a laughing stock out of the new rookie....
But that is what happened, and it was not staging, and it was not absurd.
If Arthur had never said why he had switched, though, they never would have known or considered that particular circumstance. And how could they know?

But if they never even allow that something other than the simplest of simple explanations are to be considered, then they are never open to any other possibilities either....


Here's something to consider when deciding to use Occam's Razor -
(but you probably won't read this either):

Excerpt from the book Crime Reconstruction by W. Jerry Chisum and Brent E. Turvey:

Oversimplification and Occam’s Razor

“Before we can discuss crime reconstruction practice standards, we must deconstruct the popular yet mistaken assertion that it is a simple and certain enterprise based solely on careful observation and experience. This is an oversimplification. Oversimplification occurs when a complex situation is described in simplistic terms that neglect its complexity. It can happen out of ignorance or out of a desire to achieve a greater measure of certainty than would be possible by a consideration of all the facts and information. These days oversimplification has become commonplace in entertainment, political rhetoric, and even journalism. But it has no place in the justice system.

Oversimplification is too common a vice in the forensic disciplines, from scene processing, to laboratory analysis, to crime reconstruction. It manifests in the supplanting of a formal scientific education with short courses, rote technical training, and learning on the job. It manifests with appeals to experience instead of a full investigation and appreciation of scientific fact. It manifests in the form of appeals to “common sense” for the sake of intellectual ease. It manifests when reconstructionists admonish others to not get “bogged down by all the facts,” when these facts provide the context needed for an informed and accurate interpretation of evidence and events. It manifests in these forms and others, wherever there is a desired conclusion and the full weight of the scientific method is perceived to be long way or the wrong way.

The Razor

Reconstructionists with a basic notion of logic and reasoning might invoke Occam’s razor to defend oversimplified interpretations. They might suggest that the scientific method reveals simplicity and that complexity relates to direct improbability – the more complex a theory, the less probable, given Occam’s razor. This would be a misunderstanding, and an abuse, of the concept.

Occam’s razor is an often-misstated principle that, ironically, has been reduced for mass consumption to the point of misapplication. Not uncommonly, it is stated as something along the lines of “all things being equal, the simplest explanation is most often the correct one”. Although this interpretation of Occam’s razor sounds good and has the virtue of popping up in a television show or movie now and again, it is inaccurate.

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate. Translation: Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily or plurality should not be posited without necessity. In the 14th century, a Franciscan friar and philosopher named William of Occam (a.k.a. Ockham; 1288-1348) used this principle so frequently in his writings that modern scientists and logicians have come to call it “Occam’s razor.” It is a useful concept and has been adapted to provide a basis for scientific modeling and theory building. Generally, it may be summoned as a reminder to choose the least blended hypotheses from any otherwise equivalent test models or reasoning, and to remove the extraneous and the nonessential from subsequent interpretations.

The secret to applying Occam’s razor is determining what of one’s hypothesis is necessary in interpretation and what is not. Occam, for example, assumed the existence of God in all modeling and theory building. Not all modern scientists would be willing to make this assumption, nor would most be eager to factor it into their reconstructions of crime.

Simplified, but not Simpler

Occam’s razor demands fewer blended theories, fewer assumptions, and the eradication of phenomenology. This is a far cry from the fatuousness of “don’t’ get bogged down by the facts” and “the simplest explanation is most likely correct.” Occam’s razor and its progeny are important tools, but should not be used as a substitute for reason or as an excuse to ignore relevant information because it makes a preferred conclusion easier to prove.
We would do better to recall Albert Einstein’s cautionary, which provides, “everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler.”

In other words, we are encouraged to embrace both the complexity of reality and the simplicity of direct logical reasoning without irrelevant encumbrances.


....On the surface it may not seem like a bad way to approach a reconstruction – go to the crime scene, look at the evidence, make observations, call them facts, and that is a reconstruction. Simple.

But simplicity is actually the problem here, as several crucial steps are absent from this method. The bare observation of a crime scene technician are painted as factual interpretation of events, and it is further suggested that this be offered as “factual evidence” of a reconstruction in court. This is not just misleading, it is dangerous to the cause of justice.

The first problem is that such an approach advocates a confirmatory mind-set, intentionally or otherwise. There is no accounting for how facts are to be separated from assumptions....”
____

P.S. - no matter how simple or complex this crime is, I am not advocating more complexity in assistance to an IDI case... simple does not have to equate to RDI and Complex to IDI - I think that is a Lou Smit and co-conspirator driven fallacy.... It could (and probably is) as complicated as all get-out, and still be RDI...

Whaleshark,
The definition of a garrote from http://www.donrearic.com/main.html is precisely the american definition, which has evolved linguistically to cover all the items listed. The name for this linguistic phenomenom is called Pars pro toto where a whole is named after one of its parts The word garrote is a spanish word referring to the rod not the ligature component, which note can be made from anything.

If the paintbrush handle was absent then I could not care less what the asphyxiation device was called e.g. Ligature, Garrote, Tourniquet.

Assuming your definition of a simple ligature strangulation is that the cord was pulled only by hand to tighten and asphyxiate her, you are saying:
Cord was knotted around neck, killer pulled long end of cord to tighten with hand only (because it is all that is needed), and she is dead.
No I am not assuming that. I am speculating the cord was wound once or twice around JonBenet's neck then, manually, pulled tight at both ends from behind her neck. Applied this way death occurs very quickly.

But if the stick is put on the end of the cord, could the person not do the same exact thing as above? No, because it’s not allowed, because it’s not necessary? Why can’t the killer have pulled the cord with the stick at the end to possibly use it as a handle/grip?
This could have happened, but then due to the particular circumstances this should be reflected in the forensic evidence, is it?

f part of the paintbrush stick was found inside JonBenet, maybe it was broken for using on her first, then used in the simple ligature strangulation? Maybe it was already in the paint tray in a broken state, and had been whittled or broken at a completely different time.
Maybe that’s even why they can’t find the other piece of the paintbrush?
I am on record as suggesting that this may have happened.

But that is what happened, and it was not staging, and it was not absurd.
If Arthur had never said why he had switched, though, they never would have known or considered that particular circumstance. And how could they know?
The A Shore case has no parallel with the JonBenet case where a tourniquet vs a garrote was used. Not unless you reckon one of the R's was a serial killer. You would be on sounder ground if the A Shore investigators had first theorised staging was involved only to have this proved false by his admission he hurt his finger, then your analogy would apply. Its the opposite in JonBenet's case we have forensic evidence demonstrating staging, and one component which many think was not staged e.g. garrote.

Oversimplification and Occam’s Razor
Check my posts, and you will find I usually cite Occam as, not multiplying objects beyond necessity. This does not mean any explanation should be the simplest, but the one that incorporates the minimum of elements to explain away the forensic evidence.

Staging is an example of where Occam applies because the stager usually has multiplied objects beyond necessity in this instance its safer to promote theories that presume staging, and only allow those elements where the forensic evidence permits.

With JonBenet there is no actual forensic evidence that proves JonBenet was strangled in the basement, this may have happened upstairs, with the paintbrush handle added downstairs, forever what reason the stager thought appropriate.

In a staged crime-scene the usual mistake made is to assume a staged element is bona-fide forensic evidence and then to use it to make inferences about motive, method, etc.

So in terms of Occam neither the paintbrush handle nor the ligature was required to strangle JonBenet. Whom many consider was comatose from her head trauma. Manual Strangulation would have been sufficient, and this could be attributed to an Intruder.

So any explanation that wishes to suggest JonBenet was strangled using the ligature in conjunction with the paintbrush handle, has to offer reasons for the absence of corresponding forensic evidence, why the paintbrush was broken, and why there is a piece missing, and the construction of a garrote as opposed to simply using the ligature cord?



.
 
I think the paintbrush handle was used to pull the cord tight after it was wound around her neck a few times, but there are still some puzzling aspects to this, though. Why break the brush at all? There certainly didn't seem to be a need to have a "handle" of a specific length. Why not use the whole paintbrush? If you wanted to use a piece for a sexual assault, why not use one of the several other brushes available right there in the paint tote? One piece is missing, as least as far as is public knowledge. Two pieces are accounted for- the piece tied to cord, the brush end, found replaced in the tote (there's that instinctive act of "replacing" an item where it belongs again- the unused paintbrush part put back in place in the tote where it belonged is just like the Sharpie pen used to write the note and then replaced back into the holder where it belonged). To me, this "replacing" is an automatic reflex-like behavior that has Patsy written all over it.

DeeDee249,
there are still some puzzling aspects to this, though. Why break the brush at all?
Sure, why even construct a garrote, what is that all about?

This is why I reckon it is an adornment something the stager thought might better reflect an IDI.

If a garrote had been applied then the full length paintbrush handle could have been used, exerting maximum torsion, or pull, depending on the method used. Breaking the paintbrush makes this procedure much more difficult.

In the breaking I see a deliberate element of design, an intent to fabricate a garrote, to form something the stager thought might alter our perspective on the manner of JonBenet's death.

This is where Steve Thomas and Holly Smith play a role. They know whether there were any size-6 Wednesday underwear remaining in JonBenet's underwear drawer, and whether the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet?

I think the broken paintbrush handle was applied after she was strangled using the cord. This explains why there is an absence of forensic evidence from the use of the paintbrush handle, and why her hair is embedded into the knotting, without it being pulled out at the roots. Check the autopsy photographs and you can observe that the ligature crosses over her necklace, yet Coroner Meyer reports no corresponding impression on her neck that would result from the use of the paintbrush handle?

JonBenet's person was staged, just about everything on her body, except the ligature may have been a staged item.

JonBenet may originally have been wearing the pink barbie nightgown, and not the white gap top, the size-12's are staging, the longjohns are staging, the restraints are staging, the duct tape is staging, that she was relocated is staging, her hair-ties might be staging. Her being wiped down is staging.

Just about everything, yet when it comes to the broken paintbrush handle and the ligature, some people say no, it is real and was used to kill JonBenet.

Despite all the other evidence suggesting they were staged, why the sudden change in the stagers MO, just for the garrote, explain please?


.



.
 
After reading all this, all I've really thought about was that when a girl had her hair pulled at school...she screamed.

Now we know hair was in the rope/knot...but was hair actually ripped from the scalp?
If the neighbour heard a scream, I'd always imagined it was either seeing someone about to smack JBR over the head, or if something was being inserted somewhere it shouldn't.

Now I'm wondering if a nice big twist might have pulled hair and prompted a scream.

wonderllama,
Now we know hair was in the rope/knot...but was hair actually ripped from the scalp?
No it was not. Nor is there any underlying damage to the internal structures of JonBenet's neck, see the autopsy report, that should result from the use of a garrote.

The garrote on JonBenet's neck would not work as advertised.

The scream may have been as the result of JonBenet being sexually assaulted?


.
.
 
UKGuy, in my opinion, the location of JBR's body was either staging or simply a quiet location, and as you and others in this place have detailed with the available evidence, it would seem it is relocation for staging or hiding rather than the site of the killing.

So where now are we suggesting the initial attack took place? Because quite frankly, if it's not in the store room in the basement, it must logically be even CLOSER to the parents location (and Burke's) given the said they were in bed.

The urine stains outside the store room, is there anyway to determine whether it was recent/older and from that, whether it was direct (as in someone on the floor) or dropped from a height (as in someone walking or being carried).

I'm just trying to resolve in my mind the urine stain.

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but in all the time I've been reading this case, I'd assumed everything took place down in the basement, so I need to come to terms with the attack taking place up stairs. Or at least not in the store room.

In my mind I'm back-tracking from the closed room.
 
UKGuy, in my opinion, the location of JBR's body was either staging or simply a quiet location, and as you and others in this place have detailed with the available evidence, it would seem it is relocation for staging or hiding rather than the site of the killing.

So where now are we suggesting the initial attack took place? Because quite frankly, if it's not in the store room in the basement, it must logically be even CLOSER to the parents location (and Burke's) given the said they were in bed.

The urine stains outside the store room, is there anyway to determine whether it was recent/older and from that, whether it was direct (as in someone on the floor) or dropped from a height (as in someone walking or being carried).

I'm just trying to resolve in my mind the urine stain.

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but in all the time I've been reading this case, I'd assumed everything took place down in the basement, so I need to come to terms with the attack taking place up stairs. Or at least not in the store room.

In my mind I'm back-tracking from the closed room.


There really is no way to determine when or how the urine stains got there. What was actually found was creatinine, a substance found in DRIED urine. The same substance was found on JB's sheets. Like many types of forensic evidence (fingerprints among them) it cannot be determined in a lab when they were left. Biological substance will degrade or decompose over time (like the DNA under JB's fingernails, which was found in a degraded state and as such could not have possibly been left at the time of her death.
But the presence of the dried urine on the carpeted area of the basement, not far from the paint tote, tells me that she likely died there, as the cord wound her final breaths from her.
Of course, there was dried urine on her sheets, too, so she could have died there, and the dried urine on the basement carpet could have come from the placement of her body in the wet clothes there, but this does not make sense to me. The tote and a piece of the brush were still in the basement. Why go up with the broken piece, etc?
JB wet her bed nearly EVERY night- the sheets were not the same as the ones LHP put on the bed Dec 23. Patsy must have put them on Dec 24, and JB likely woke up to a wet bed Christmas morning. I don't think she went to bed at all Christmas night. Her white blanket, likely taken from the basement dryer where LHP always laundered it (as opposed to the smaller washer/dryer outside JB'd room) was obviously not put back on the bed by Patsy (who was understandably busy Christmas and Christmas Eve) and her bed was obviously still "made" at the foot end of it. Even LE discussed this with Patsy, hinting around that it was obvious that NO one pulled a blanket off that bed. Impossible without disturbing the foot section.
 
The beginning of John's book is available to read!

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Suffering-JonBenet-Journey/dp/0892963859/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1329439633&sr=8-4"]Amazon.com: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsey Tells the Story of His Journey from Grief to Grace (9780892963850): John Ramsey, Marie Chapian: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CrBAIEcLL.@@AMEPARAM@@51CrBAIEcLL[/ame]

He says that Patsy made the comment about the My Twinn doll looking like JonBenet in a casket on Christmas Day---before JBR died. But I always thought that Patsy said that after the murder....

BTW, you can use the search box to search the entire book, but you'll only see a snippet of the sentence the "word" is from. I search for Holloway and nothing came up, so it looks like he doesn't mention his relationship with Beth.

And a search for "benet" shows that JonBenet's name is spelled wrong (Jon Benet) 43x in the book!!!!!!
 

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