KoldKase,
Well Coroner Meyer cited sexual contact which I reckon is distinct from any internal injury caused by say a paintbrush handle. Steve Thomas or Holly Smith could confirm this.
JonBenet's person was staged the wine-cellar was not!
.
John Ramsey's New Book
- Thread starter Tricia
- Start date
KoldKase,
Well Coroner Meyer cited sexual contact which I reckon is distinct from any internal injury caused by say a paintbrush handle. Steve Thomas or Holly Smith could confirm this.
JonBenet's person was staged the wine-cellar was not!
.
I've always wanted to be officially declared a Dragon Lady, cause I've certainly earned it.
[/url][/IMG]
And Lo! The Son of the Dragon did gather all that were to him. For all who tasted of the Dragon's blood were of it.
Came the first, who said, "I desire this power." And so the first was made, and the earth shook.
Came the second, who said, "I have earned this power." And so the second was made, and the sun turned dark.
I'm with you on that one, KK. My question is, was she hit WITH something, or did SHE hit something? Werner Spitz made a damn fine case for the former, but I've just got this feeling, you know?
I've never had it confirmed by any trustworthy source that there was a urine stain on the carpet by the cellar door.
Well said. And even then, it didn't really matter if it looked convincing to LE. It just had to look convincing to one person out of twelve.
SuperDave,
Precisely, its a factoid, nice that you flagged it up.
Lots of stuff may have happened. But the one thing I can guarantee you that did not take place, was that JonBenet's death was staged!
Just about everyone and their dog knows why and how JonBenet died e.g. asphyxiation, what they do not know is who did it!
The child was left to effect an abduction, refer to occam for a rationale.
The case of hitting is either pre-emtive or not. In this case a sexual assault is redundant. So I side with your latter assumption.
This is subject to amendment if we consider the head injury to be a form of staging, refer yourself to the wiped flashlight!
.
I notice this post was edited to remove a certain comment, and I'm glad. I was going to ask that it be removed anyway. In what was a clumsy attempt at humor and wit, I did something awful. It SHOULD be taken out. I didn't think before I said it. That's no excuse, but I hope it's an explanation. To all who read it, I'm very sorry. I just wish that everyone realizes that I am not that kind of person. Thank you.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...exonerated-in-the-murder-of-his-daughter.html
John Ramsey's Lingering Suspicions
Oct 13, 2008
"For solace, he goes every Sunday to a small church nearby, just as he did with Patsy. He obsessively reads the theology books that line the sunroom: Max Lucado, C.S Lewis, even Billy Graham. Having seen true evil, he is trying to find "an intellectual rather than an emotional basis for believing in God."
John Ramsey's Lingering Suspicions
Oct 13, 2008
"For solace, he goes every Sunday to a small church nearby, just as he did with Patsy. He obsessively reads the theology books that line the sunroom: Max Lucado, C.S Lewis, even Billy Graham. Having seen true evil, he is trying to find "an intellectual rather than an emotional basis for believing in God."
Hey SD , can't imagine what you said but good for you posting an apology.
Ref your earlier post I wouldn't make a very good witness btw
DIRK SCHILLER
New Member
sorry I did miss it
who was John´s first supect which he thinks he ´s the murder?
who was John´s first supect which he thinks he ´s the murder?
Whaleshark
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UKGuy,
I don't see how I am assisting the Ramsey case by stating the ligature may have been used suffocate her by using it more like a tourniquet. That doesn't mean that a Ramsey didn't do it!
It's quite infuriating how you belittle my points and state that I am saying something that I am not.
I would agree that there is staging and that the wine cellar is a dump spot. I just think it is also possible the ligature was used to suffocate her tourniquet style (and that is still a definition of garrotte - it's not absolute one way or the other)...
...AND, it can still be a Ramsey who did all those things.
Just because I conjecture that the stick on the ligature may not be part of the staging but part of the tool to kill her does not mean I am assisting the Ramsey case, if I think a Ramsey used it to kill her anyway!
But whatever.
I don't see how I am assisting the Ramsey case by stating the ligature may have been used suffocate her by using it more like a tourniquet. That doesn't mean that a Ramsey didn't do it!
It's quite infuriating how you belittle my points and state that I am saying something that I am not.
I would agree that there is staging and that the wine cellar is a dump spot. I just think it is also possible the ligature was used to suffocate her tourniquet style (and that is still a definition of garrotte - it's not absolute one way or the other)...
...AND, it can still be a Ramsey who did all those things.
Just because I conjecture that the stick on the ligature may not be part of the staging but part of the tool to kill her does not mean I am assisting the Ramsey case, if I think a Ramsey used it to kill her anyway!
But whatever.
Background info on YWAM:
CULT AWARENESS AND INFORMATION LIBRARY:
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1717
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/jacobson_laurie_myexperienceinywam_abs.htm
My Experience in YWAM
"Features common to YWAM and controversial religious cults include manipulation of fear. and guilt,
authoritarianism, the denigration of critical thinking, social exclusiveness, and suppression of
individuality. The YWAM Discipleship Training School, which the author attended in Hawaii, also relied
on the leadership's special interpretation of biblical verses and precepts to inculcate attitudes and
obtain conformity to the group's ways. The author concludes that while YWAM hopes to create a perfect
community, the result is a loss of freedom."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316371,00.html
Missionary Group Thrust Into Limelight After Colorada Shooting
Dec 11, 2007
Rick Ross, founder of the Ross Institute of New Jersey, which tracks cults, does not agree.
"Youth With a Mission is not a cult," he said. "However, I have received very serious complaints about
Youth With a Mission from former staffers, family members and also others concerned, such as Christian
clergy."
http://www.rickross.com/reference/youth/youth1.html
"YWAM is dangerous...I spent 12 years...under the influence"
November 1999"
CULT AWARENESS AND INFORMATION LIBRARY:
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1717
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/jacobson_laurie_myexperienceinywam_abs.htm
My Experience in YWAM
"Features common to YWAM and controversial religious cults include manipulation of fear. and guilt,
authoritarianism, the denigration of critical thinking, social exclusiveness, and suppression of
individuality. The YWAM Discipleship Training School, which the author attended in Hawaii, also relied
on the leadership's special interpretation of biblical verses and precepts to inculcate attitudes and
obtain conformity to the group's ways. The author concludes that while YWAM hopes to create a perfect
community, the result is a loss of freedom."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316371,00.html
Missionary Group Thrust Into Limelight After Colorada Shooting
Dec 11, 2007
Rick Ross, founder of the Ross Institute of New Jersey, which tracks cults, does not agree.
"Youth With a Mission is not a cult," he said. "However, I have received very serious complaints about
Youth With a Mission from former staffers, family members and also others concerned, such as Christian
clergy."
http://www.rickross.com/reference/youth/youth1.html
"YWAM is dangerous...I spent 12 years...under the influence"
November 1999"
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/ywamstory.html
My YWAM Experience
by G. in an email of 12/1/02 to DITC
"There are four primary teachings that YWAM uses at every base, which everyone must learn, that concern
me. They are as follows:
Unity at all costs
Giving up your rights
"Touch not God's Anointed"
"Deniers, Quitters and Betrayers"
And there are many more...They also push students to speak in tongues...These four teachings
ultimately achieve total control for YWAM and its leaders.
Everyone who attends YWAM also goes through what they call a time of "ministry." During this time you
confess and renounce old sins. If you don't confess something, then you are looked upon as unable to
allow "God to go deep." You are also encouraged to imagine that Jesus is in the room with you through
a type of guided imagery.
YWAM leaders have said for many years that they want to recruit young people fresh out of high school.
These youth are often quite vulnerable and obviously can be easily influenced. They also frequently
have little if any meaningful bible training. The four teachings previously cited may then be taken to
an extreme to train these youth. And YWAM can do a great job manipulating almost any situation.
When negative things happen within YWAM a typical response is, "That's an isolated situation." And
when I was in YWAM they told me always to "cover the mission at all costs." They try to make any
problem appear as if it is only the first time such a problem has occurred. Remember that their
funding often comes from the local church...so cover the mission at all cost!"
My YWAM Experience
by G. in an email of 12/1/02 to DITC
"There are four primary teachings that YWAM uses at every base, which everyone must learn, that concern
me. They are as follows:
Unity at all costs
Giving up your rights
"Touch not God's Anointed"
"Deniers, Quitters and Betrayers"
And there are many more...They also push students to speak in tongues...These four teachings
ultimately achieve total control for YWAM and its leaders.
Everyone who attends YWAM also goes through what they call a time of "ministry." During this time you
confess and renounce old sins. If you don't confess something, then you are looked upon as unable to
allow "God to go deep." You are also encouraged to imagine that Jesus is in the room with you through
a type of guided imagery.
YWAM leaders have said for many years that they want to recruit young people fresh out of high school.
These youth are often quite vulnerable and obviously can be easily influenced. They also frequently
have little if any meaningful bible training. The four teachings previously cited may then be taken to
an extreme to train these youth. And YWAM can do a great job manipulating almost any situation.
When negative things happen within YWAM a typical response is, "That's an isolated situation." And
when I was in YWAM they told me always to "cover the mission at all costs." They try to make any
problem appear as if it is only the first time such a problem has occurred. Remember that their
funding often comes from the local church...so cover the mission at all cost!"
Re: YWAM, Fees and FAQ:
http://uofnkona.edu/index.php?optio...and-insurance&catid=48:faq&Itemid=317&lang=en
1. Can my donors get a tax-deductible receipt?
Money that is paid for school fees is NOT tax deductible.
If a supporter wants a tax deduction, one option might be to have people channel funds through your
home church. Ask your pastor if this is an option for you.
9. How much does the DTS cost?
Lecture Fees: Fees for the 12-week lecture phase of the Discipleship Training School are $3995
(includes tuition, room and board). There are significant fee discounts for qualifying students from
developing nations. The cost is $2,995 for B category and $1,995 for C category nation students. The
$1,000 room deposit that is paid in advance is included in these amounts.
Cleaning deposit: The $50 room cleaning deposit is included in your lecture fees. It is refunded to
you at the end of the lecture phase, assuming the room passes its cleaning inspection.
Key deposit: Room keys are available for a $5 deposit.
Outreach fees: The cost of varies depending on the location, airfares and length of the outreach! An
average 8-week outreach costs approximately $US 4,000 - 6,000.
The first $2,500 is due by Week 4 of the lecture phase - this ensures an airline ticket can be
purchased. The balance is due by week 8.
http://uofnkona.edu/index.php?optio...and-insurance&catid=48:faq&Itemid=317&lang=en
1. Can my donors get a tax-deductible receipt?
Money that is paid for school fees is NOT tax deductible.
If a supporter wants a tax deduction, one option might be to have people channel funds through your
home church. Ask your pastor if this is an option for you.
9. How much does the DTS cost?
Lecture Fees: Fees for the 12-week lecture phase of the Discipleship Training School are $3995
(includes tuition, room and board). There are significant fee discounts for qualifying students from
developing nations. The cost is $2,995 for B category and $1,995 for C category nation students. The
$1,000 room deposit that is paid in advance is included in these amounts.
Cleaning deposit: The $50 room cleaning deposit is included in your lecture fees. It is refunded to
you at the end of the lecture phase, assuming the room passes its cleaning inspection.
Key deposit: Room keys are available for a $5 deposit.
Outreach fees: The cost of varies depending on the location, airfares and length of the outreach! An
average 8-week outreach costs approximately $US 4,000 - 6,000.
The first $2,500 is due by Week 4 of the lecture phase - this ensures an airline ticket can be
purchased. The balance is due by week 8.
KoldKase
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- Jul 24, 2008
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Pretty much everything we discuss is speculation, since no one here with whom I'm familiar has ever held even one evidence report in his/her hand. Apply all the theories you please, but as soon as the element of speculation-based opinions is added in, no one can say anything is certain.
I use the term "garrote" loosely, because it has been used since the crime to describe the cord/handle construction that without a doubt, to 100% certainty, based on the evidence and autopsy, killed JonBenet Ramsey.
We can google all day about what is a true garrote. In the end, it's shorter and easier to call the cord that strangled the child, with an attached "handle" tied onto it, a garrote.
As for how it functioned, that has been argued from the beginning. Since we've had so many sources and lots of them contradict each other, I've turned to the knot anyone can clearly see and duplicate in photos of the wrist bindings. It's easy to construct and it works as a slip knot, which I've already said many times. If people don't want to do that simple test, then I guess they don't.
But until someone can make a convincing argument to me that the person or persons who tied that slip knot on that wrist binding for some reason used a different knot on the cord around her neck when that same knot would have worked just as the one on the cord did--and strangled the child to death, I believe I'm sticking with what my own eyes can see.
If the "handle" wasn't used to pull the cord around the neck, engaging the slip knot until the cord rolled up the neck, tighter and tighter, then embedded into the upper, smaller section under the head but passing over the delicate neck bones without damaging them, then it wasn't. But we don't know that, do we?
People tend to believe what suits their theory, but we really don't know for certain until experts testify at trial and a jury becomes finder of fact. That's not going to happen. So we have Meyer's report stating the knot was an overhand/Granny knot--but he probably did not stop the autopsy to do an expert evaluation of it like the Canadian Mountie knot-expert eventually did some time after the autopsy, if memory serves--and I've never seen a whisper as to what Mr. Tassle determined about the knots; and we have the wrist binding pictures which prove to me that whoever was tying these knots full well could construct a deadly slip knot--and did so on the wrist binding.
Occam's Razor: if there's one clearly in sight, the one we can't see clearly but which functioned the same probably was the same knot. And that's my speculation based on evidence, not on searching to substantiate a theory for some reason I'm sure I don't know about.
Staged: the duct tape was put on the body after the child was bludgeoned and strangled. The proof is in the saliva that drooled down her face and dried when it turned to the right. The proof of that is in the autopsy photos where the tape residue can be observed over the dried saliva. There would have been no saliva drooling down her face if the duct tape had been applied before she was unconscious, at least. Since the direction of the drool flows down the right side of the face, it follows it did so when her head was turned into the position in which it was found when rigor mortis had set in at approx. 1 pm--to the right. That equates with the duct tape being staged after death.
Staged: the wrist bindings were clearly not put on the child to stop her from escape. They were loose with long cord between wrists; there is no post mortem indication they restrained her in any way or that she ever pulled against them, either. Therefore, the wrist binding was staging.
So was the "handle" solely for staging? She died from being strangled by the cord to which it was tied. So the jury is out.
The paint chip and basement carpet fiber found at autopsy on the child's chin came from paint which matched that in Patsy's tray. The remaining brush end of the paintbrush used to construct the "handle" of the ligature was found in the same paint tray, in the basement. Attempting simplicity, I can't conclude that someone ran back and forth and back and forth, rather than brought the child down to the basement where evidence repeatedly indicates various elements of the strangulation probably occurred.
An infinite number of theories through the years tell me maybe the case is not as simple as you think. The evidence tells the tale, but as has been observed, there's nearly too much evidence in this case.
Whaleshark
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Since JonBenet's own hair was entangled in that knot on the stick at the end of the cord, if it was only for adornment/staging - the stick part - I wonder how her hair got entangeld in the knot? ...especially since that part of the cord was so long. If it was an afterthought, wouldn't the person have just put the stick while she is lying there dead, holding it away from her and all?
I think the hair entangled in the knot of the stick lends more to the possibility of that stick being used, especially in close proximity to her neck...else how did the hair get tangled in it?
Again, this does not mean a Ramsey didn't do it...
I think the hair entangled in the knot of the stick lends more to the possibility of that stick being used, especially in close proximity to her neck...else how did the hair get tangled in it?
Again, this does not mean a Ramsey didn't do it...
KoldKase
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How do you come to the conclusion this was not a noose knot on the ligature?
The knot on the wrist binding was a slip knot, creating a noose. You can see the knot and make to test yourself.
I know Meyers reported from his autopsy it was a granny knot, but he was no expert and easily could have simply made a mistake.
We've never seen the report from the knot expert. I don't remember seeing any claims of what he found when he studied these knots, but I very well could have forgotten at this point.
Do you see any indication on the neck that the paintbrush or any type of "tourniquet" aide was inserted under the cord, twisting it as a tourniquet? I have never seen that or haven't come to that conclusion from the autopsy photos, at least. I haven't looked online for autopsy photos of how that type of bruising would look, but how could there not be some bruising from it with friction against the skin as it twisted the cord tighter and tighter?
Perhaps you've found this, and I'm interested in your insight on this, so thanks in advance.
Whaleshark
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If you look at the back of her neck you can see where it looks like there is a pretty deep circular embedded injury - could be where the stick was used as a tourniquet to tighten the cord. Also, remember that not only the knot in the cord on the back of her neck has hair entangled in it, but the knot on the stick has her hair entangled in it. For such a long cord where the stick is at the end of it, how did the hair get entangled in that stick as well?
KoldKase
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Good points. Also, why put the child on her stomach by the paint tray to tie the "handle" on the cord? You could do that with her lying on her back since the cord was amply long to do so.
Unless you were pulling from behind, I see no reason to put the child on her stomach. Her bladder released there, as well, so it's a good indicator that this is where she was strangled, IMO. The urine on the front of her long johns also indicates she was on her stomach when she urinated on the carpet there.
I honestly can't remember if Smit was the only source for this "urine on the basement carpet" detail, I've read so much through the years. Do we know this is fact? Of course not, but it fits the crime with the evidence I've seen from many other sources. It can be argued, of course, as can everything in this case--obviously.
Some other things that come to mind: the "strange lights" the neighbor allegedly said he/she saw in the house, rather than the usual light kept on at night. Who would turn that off? What were the "strange lights"?
Remember if no lights were turned on in the basement, it was very dark there. So a flashlight would have been important. It also could fit the description of "strange lights" seen by the neighbor. The Maglight was found on the kitchen counter the next day, as well.
Also there are a couple of conflicting reports about Burke's Swiss knife: one is that it was found on a counter in the hall leading to the cellar room. I've seen it reported it had gum from the duct tape on it--can't remember where, but that might have been in Wecht's book? Then there are reports that it was found on the floor IN the cellar room. The sources for that also escape me now--sorry.
This is why I believe to the depth of my soul that LE in Boulder know exactly what happened in that house and exactly who did what.
But I doubt we'll ever hear it.
KoldKase
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The child had long hair. It easily could have gotten entangled in the somewhat involved knot tied on the stick if the person were bent over the child tying all this stuff on her from behind, especially.
Perhaps the hair tangled in the knot of the handle was also attached to her head, like the knot in the garrote still was at autopsy; then when pulled, it was torn from her head.
Seems like that would prove the handle was used to pull the cord. The hair can clearly be seen in the handle knot.
I don't remember the injury at the back of the neck, at least not in the way you're describing it. I'll check it out. Thanks.
KoldKase
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Is this what JR is doing now? :floorlaugh:
Ooops. I don't think I'm being nice. Shhhh. Don't tell Tricia on me.
Thing is, I have some family history with Holy Rollers. I've seen people "speaking in tongues." Been to the camp meets and church services.
My opinion: self-hypnosis. Plus a heaping of delusional conviction. Perfect for a man trying to relieve his guilty conscience.
And believe me, they have fun.
Maybe JR will take up Scientology next. Lord Xenu will shake in his space boots. :woohoo:
KoldKase
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Was this the same religious church group that Patsy and John did the live interview with in Hawaii when she was nearing the end of her life?
Interesting how the players in this case somehow transected at so many points: Alex Hunter was vacationing in Hawaii when JonBenet was murdered.
John and Burke went to Hawaii a few years ago at Christmas, after Patsy died. Burke tweeted about it: locations, time schedules, airports, even photos of the hotel and himself at the airport with JR's plane in the background. He and John were drinking beers together at one point, he mentioned.