jury is out until Wednesday 21 March: general discussion thread

[flipflop]

In her testimony from court from recent days. Not the May 24th confession.

I'm saying in her testimony she isn't using contractions, that's why it sounds like she's reading from a script.

It's hard for me to say as I did not hear her testimony and reading a repeat of what she said on twitter.....hmmmm was it exactly word for word?

 

[dilbert]

I wonder what movie they "watched" on their date night?

 

[Hello_Kitty]

It's hard for me to say as I did not hear her testimony and reading a repeat of what she said on twitter.....hmmmm was it exactly word for word?

I'm going to use one example, when she was asked why she in to get the garbage back and hammer or something like that, she said 'because she was instructed to do so' people don't talk like that in real life and they use contractions all the time.

Sorry, I'd have to go through the whole tweets to find the other stuff.

I understand it may not mean alot to other people, but her talking like that and NOT using contraction when she is testifying about certain things, to me it makes her testimony sound false, like she's reading from a script, or a book, I think she's got some delusional issues.

 

[dilbert]

IMO, I would think the Crown would need to have MR's semen to prove HE sexually assaulted her, I'm sure we're all aware a penis is not needed to sexually assault someone.

The medical examiner is to testify that the CAUSE OF DEATH is the blunt force trauma inflicted on Tori's head, the rib fractures and lacerated liver were both inflicted BEFORE she died.

The Crown will show evidence that she died from repeated hammer blows to the head, Gowdey said, explaining that the pathologist found she had already been struck with blows that lacerated her liver and broke her ribs before the fatal hammer strikes.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CanadaAM/20120306/rafferty-trial-first-witness-120306/

 

[Wondergirl]

So, is this a correct summary of what transpired this week?

The sequence of admissions by TLM, the way I interpret them, as per Rafferty's trial evidence as presented by the Crown, is that TLM accused MTR of killing Victoria in Interview #1 and TLM admitted to killing Victoria herself in Interview #2.

Is this sequence of events correct, or do I totally have it backwards?

1. On May 24th, TLM accuses MTR of killing Tori with the hammer. (Interview #1)

2. After May 24th, TLM recants that admission to Det. Smyth in interview. She then admits to killing Tori herself. (Interview #2)

3. This week, TLM admits to killing Tori with the hammer in testimony at MTR's trial.

4. Today, TLM confirms that her testimony is correct, that she killed Tori with the hammer.

5. Today, TLM reads her confession from May 24th, and both her and the jury watch the video of May 24th. She confirms that her admission on that date was not correct, and her testimony now is correct.

6. Today, the Judge deems that the jury may only use the videotaped confession on May 24th to assess TLM's credibility as a witness, but that they are not allowed to use the May 24th Interview as evidence.

Is this correct, or am I wrong?

Justice Thomas Heeney later told the jurors that McClintic's videotaped statement could not be considered as evidence in the trial. But he said jurors could use the videotape to assess McClintic's credibility as a witness.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/15/19508776.html

The jurors were shown several portions of a videotaped interview that McClintic gave to police investigators on May 24, 2009.


In the video McClintic tells police that Rafferty killed eight-year old Victoria Stafford with kicks and hammer blow to the head, while she stood by.


That directly contradicted her testimony on Tuesday when she claimed that she delivered the fatal blow to the child in a fit of rage.


http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/15/19508776.html

 

[matou]

So, is this a correct summary of what transpired this week?

The sequence of admissions by TLM, the way I interpret them, as per Rafferty's trial evidence as presented by the Crown, is that TLM accused MTR of killing Victoria in Interview #1 and TLM admitted to killing Victoria herself in Interview #2.

Is this sequence of events correct, or do I totally have it backwards?

1. On May 24th, TLM accuses MTR of killing Tori with the hammer. (Interview #1)

2. After May 24th, TLM recants that admission to Det. Smyth in interview. She then admits to killing Tori herself. (Interview #2)

3. This week, TLM admits to killing Tori with the hammer in testimony at MTR's trial.

4. Today, TLM confirms that her testimony is correct, that she killed Tori with the hammer.

5. Today, TLM reads her confession from May 24th, and both her and the jury watch the video of May 24th. She confirms that her admission on that date was not correct, and her testimony now is correct.

6. Today, the Judge deems that the jury may only use the videotaped confession on May 24th to assess TLM's credibility as a witness, but that they are not allowed to use the May 24th Interview as evidence.

Is this correct, or am I wrong?

I thought that on April 30th 2010, TLM revealed her side of the story officially in court and plead guilty of murder and kidnapping. She was given her life sentence on that date. She would have stated how Tori died on that date and that she claimed MR did the actual killing. JMO

 

[margaret_diane]

It is my honest belief and opinion MR had already killed Tori before he pulled her from the car. I hate to be so graphic but the fact that Tori was bleeding due to the sexual assault inflicted by MR, and the pain Tori would have endured would cause this sweet baby to go into shock. Shock can cause death if medical intervention is not sought or treated properly. Along with the shock Tori was bleeding internally. These two factors alone would certainly cause death. So even if the hammer wasn't swung, the inevitable truth is Tori would have died anyhow all because of what MR did to her in his car. He is the one guilty moreso of murder in MHO. If they would have drove off without using the hammer and just left her under the pine trees, (if she wasn't already deceased) she would have slowly and painfully died. Going back to Tori's motionless body on the ground. Why would MR throw Tori outside the car, on the ground? JMHO is because he was "done" with her, she was dead or near death. He wasn't getting any reaction from her anymore, the screaming, fighting, crying out in pain and therefore he wasn't being "turned on".

If TLM was in a rage as she stated, she certainly would not have taken the time to cover Tori's head in garbage bags, this seems far fetched. Someone acting in a rage does not rationalize that way. All my theory and my honest opinion. MR is a <modsnip> and sought out TLM the loser ow life who he knew he could manipulate to go along with his perverse plans. As per TLM claim, as to what MR said to her, "you would do anything for a little bit of love eh":moo:

Understanding Shock. Shock is a life-threatening medical condition and is a medical emergency. If shock is suspected call 911 or get to an emergency department immediately.
http://www.medicinenet.com/shock/article.htm#facts

When does hemorrhagic shock result in death?
http://www.sharecare.com/question/when-hemorrhagic-shock-result-death

I just wanted to say that the cause of death was noted already. The cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head - by the hammer. This was pointed out by TLM, and by the Crown already, and will be confirmed by the ME at some point, I'm sure. Thats my :twocents: worth - that the ME will testify to that. We don't know that yet for a fact. But we DO know that the Crown and TLM have both stated that the cause of death was hammer blows to the poor girl's head.

In addition, I wanted to point out that we've already heard that (sadly!) Tori was ALIVE when her rib was fractured, and liver lacerated. The ME would know this because of the processes a living body goes through when it sustains a fracture (it has to do with the process of inflamation). There would be tell tale signs in the organs that had to do with oxygenation, chemicals released by the body etc - things that would NOT have taken place if the body were already deceased when the rib was fractured.

You can read more about the forensics behind how they would have determined if she were alive or already dead when the rib fracture and liver laceration happened HERE:
http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/category/blood-analysis/

 

[dilbert]

It was TLM's SECOND interview with Smyth that TLM said MR killed Tori.

Adrian Morrow &#8207; @AdrianMorrow
Court will be watching a video of Det.-Sgt. Jim Smyth's second interview with Terri-Lynne McClintic #ToriStafford

Adrian Morrow &#8207; @AdrianMorrow
In the 2009 video, Terri-Lynne McClintic tells D/S Smyth that it was Rafferty, not her, who killed Tori with a hammer

 

[Wondergirl]

Trying to find the specifics on the interviews. Here is an admission from Day 1, by the Crown, that TLM provided conflicting accounts.

Ms. McClintic, serving a life term, has provided conflicting accounts of what she did, but &#8220;she was an essential part of what happened,&#8221; the jury was told.

DNA evidence &#8211; linked to both Tori and Mr. Rafferty &#8211; will be central to the prosecution&#8217;s case, the jury heard, as will be Mr. Rafferty&#8217;s cellphone records that evening.

&#8220;Please listen to the DNA evidence, it will tell you a lot,&#8221; Mr. Gowdey said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...in-her-death-jury-hears/article2358818/page1/

• When she was in court, police talked to McClintic and asked her to talk about Tori. At first, she denied involvement, then confessed.
  by AdrianMorrow via twitter March 5 at 3:30 PM

 

[dilbert]

Since TLM's plea hearing is still under a publication ban, and we don't know what she said in her first interview with Smyth, her testimony during MR's trial is the first time the public has heard that it was TLM herself that killed Tori, not MR.

 

[Wondergirl]

• "As you will hear, Terri-Lynn McClintic has given different versions of the events to the police at different times," crown says.
  by AdrianMorrow via twitter March 5 at 4:01 PM

 

[Sparklin]

London Free Press &#8207; @RaffertyLFP
McClinitic said she was "just standing there" after Tori killed and Rafferty told her to help "because she was in it as much as he was now"

bbm - that comment alone, no matter when she made it, leads me to believe that Rafferty killed Tori.

 

[Wondergirl]

This is JMO, I think I have this correct, but, am still not 100% sure.


Interview #1 - May 19th, 2009

TLM accuses MTR of murder. MTR arrested.

Interview #2 - May 24th, 2009

TLM admits she killed Tori.


Note: What was the day that TLM's charges were upgraded to 1st Degree Murder?

ETA: May 28th, 2009, her charges were upgraded to murder.

Last Updated: Thursday, May 28, 2009 | 12:54 PM ET

The young woman charged in connection with the abduction of Victoria Stafford will now also face a first-degree murder charge.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2009/05/28/stafford-suspects-court028.html

• By coincidence, same day he was analyzing video (May 19, 2009), Terri-Lynn McClintic was confessing to police and Mr. Rafferty was arrested
  by AdrianMorrow via twitter March 6 at 4:08 PM

 

[dilbert]

• "As you will hear, Terri-Lynn McClintic has given different versions of the events to the police at different times," crown says.
  by AdrianMorrow via twitter March 5 at 4:01 PM

Of course she has, at first she told them she wasn't involved AT ALL!!

 

[dilbert]

This is JMO, I think I have this correct, but, am still not 100% sure.


Interview #1 - May 19th, 2009

TLM accuses MTR of murder. MTR arrested.

Interview #2 - May 24th, 2009

TLM admits she killed Tori.

Note: What was the day that TLM's charges were upgraded to 1st Degree Murder?

• By coincidence, same day he was analyzing video (May 19, 2009), Terri-Lynn McClintic was confessing to police and Mr. Rafferty was arrested
  by AdrianMorrow via twitter March 6 at 4:08 PM

That is incorrect!!! <mod snip>

It was TLM's SECOND interview with Smyth that TLM said MR killed Tori.

Adrian Morrow &#8207; @AdrianMorrow
Court will be watching a video of Det.-Sgt. Jim Smyth's second interview with Terri-Lynne McClintic #ToriStafford

Adrian Morrow &#8207; @AdrianMorrow
In the 2009 video, Terri-Lynne McClintic tells D/S Smyth that it was Rafferty, not her, who killed Tori with a hammer

 

[Sparklin]

I would imagine that Raffertys lawyer had serious issues with that tape being played, hence the delays today and the judges instructions to the jury regarding it. What I don't get is why she bothered to change her story, unless they have something solid proving she was the one to kick/stomp/kill...

I wish with all my being that he would just change his plea to guilty (can he do that at this point?) and save the family from any more excessive grief. Regardless of who yielded the hammer, he is pure evil and needs to be put away forever!!

 

[Wondergirl]

3:03
RaffertyLFP:
"Her credibility will be an issue in this case" admits Gowdey. Look to see if her evidence is confirmed by others says Gowdey [via Twitter]

 

[Wondergirl]

<modsnip>
I am trying to find more than one reference for the timeline here.

I believe that Smyth did both Interview #1 and Interview #2, as per LFP below, but, need further clarification on that, again, the tweets are a little ambiguous.

I don't believe that TLM's charges would have been upgraded to include 1st degree murder on May 28, 2009, if she changed her confession to say that MTR killed her.

Sorry, I guess I am trying just to determine what has been presented this week.

Hoping for some good articles to decipher this, because, near as I can see, the Tweets are not filling in the blanks.

:18
RaffertyLFP:
McClintic said she initally lied in an interview in Police Sgt, Smith but then changed her story [via Twitter]

12:19
RaffertyLFP:
That interview was videotaped and led to McClintic being charged with kidnapping, and accessory to murder, later upgraded to murder [via Twitter]

 

[Hello_Kitty]

This may help:



After watching all of the videos, McClintic says some of the facts presented are correct except that it was her who hit Tori with a hammer and kicked her.

by Jon Hembrey 3:12 PM


The jury is shown five videos in which McClintic tells Det.-Sgt. Smyth on May 24, 2009, that it was Rafferty who delivered the fatal blows. Gowdey asks her why she would say tell police it was Rafferty who did so when she is now saying it was herself. "If I didn’t say something this is a man that could do this again to some other child," she tells the court.

by Jon Hembrey 3:11 PM


The jury has been called back into the courtroom.

by Jon Hembrey 2:46 PM


The jury is asked to leave the courtroom.

by Jon Hembrey 2:38 PM


In the the third video, a very emotional McClintic tells Det.-Sgt. Smyth that Rafferty hit Tori with the hammer a "couple of times." Gowdey asks why she would have said that. "Because I could not accept that I was capable of committing something so heinous, he was the one that wanted to kidnap a child," she tells the court.

by Jon Hembrey 2:34 PM


Gowdey asks her if that was the truth. "It was true but it wasn’t him that did it, it was me," she tells the court.

by Jon Hembrey 2:26 PM


In the second clip shown, McClintic tells Det.-Sgt. Jim Smyth that she saw Rafferty kick Tori a "couple times." She also says "he used the hammer" to hit Tori in the head and there was no blood spatter because there was a garbage bag on her head.

by Jon Hembrey 2:20 PM


The jury is back in. The Crown will present segments of a video which depicts McClintic and Det.-Sgt. Jim Smyth speaking on May 24, 2009. The Crown will then ask McClintic questions about that section.

by Jon Hembrey 2:09 PM

 

[dilbert]

I understand what you're saying Wondergirl, but we don't know what TLM said at her first interview with Smyth. You can't say what she said if that information has never been released. All we know right now is that during her second interview she told Smyth that MR killed Tori.

Anyway, I was concerned you couldn't see my comments because they weren't being acknowledged at all, wasn't trying to be snippy, was only trying to help put forth accurate information.

MOO