Lies point us to the truth #3

[Rain on my Parade]

Starting at the beginning ...
Susan Stine

Where was DS? He wasn’t mentioned as saying goodbye.

Interviewer: Boulder Police
Interviewee: John Ramsey
Date of Interview: April 30, 1997
Interviewed At: Boulder District Attorney’s Office
Case: Hasson/Ramsey
Case No: 96-423
JR: Uh, it was probably 8:30 p.m., quarter to nine when we left as I recall. And uh, we had gift baskets for the Walkers, for the Stines, for the Franks, and we left the White’s and we took a basket to the Walkers; as I recall Patsy went in and I stayed in the car; we drove to the Stines and did the same thing, uh, and debated on whether to go to the Franks or not, but it was getting late and that was a ways away, so we decided to go home. So we probably got home about nineish, nine-fifteen I think, drove in the back through the alley into the garage. Uh JonBenet had fallen fast to sleep. Uh, I carried her inside and took her upstairs and put her in bed, put her on her bed. Uh Patsy came up behind me, and then I went down to get Burke ready for bed, he was down in the living room, working on a toy he got putting it together, and tried to get him to go to bed because we had to get up early the next morning, but he wanted to get this toy put together, so I worked with him on that for 10 15 minutes probably; and then I took him up to bed and got his pajamas on, probably brushed his teeth, and then I went up stairs from there and got ready for bed. I read her a little bit. The lights went out around ten-thirtyish or ten-forty.

1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy Ramsey by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado
NE Book Page 47:
Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Got home about 8:30, 9:00. What's the first thing you guys do when you got home that night? Actually, let me step back. Befofe you got home, you went over to.."
Patsy Ramsey: "Walkers and dropped off a little gift... and Stines and dropped off a little gift and drove home and JonBenet was asleep. She had fallen asleep in the car."
Tom Trujillo: "Did you have to wake her up to get her inside or..?"
Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she was just really zonked and John carried her up to her room... and, I, uh, you know, ran up behind him and, or in front of him, I can't remember. Maybe, or it might have been in front of him to turn the bed down. And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and, uh, went to the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants... and put those on."
PR original statement to the police Dec.26th, 1996:
When Officer French arrived at the Ramsey home early that morning, Patsy told him that Jonbenet had gone to bed wearing a red turtleneck. When Jonbenet was found she was wearing a white Gap shirt (the same shirt she had been wearing the previous day).

BR:
Based on Schiller and Thomas’s summaries (see below) we can piece together these aspects of Burke’s account of that evening:

• Jonbenet fell asleep in the car on the way home, but woke up to help carry presents into the house of a friend (the Stines).
  
  
• When they got home, Jonbenet was still awake. She walked in slowly and went up the spiral stairs to bed, just ahead of Patsy.
  
  
• Burke remained downstairs and played with a toy with John. He and John talked about how it was time for bed.
  
  
• He didn't remember when he went to bed.

Was JB asleep? If so, when did she awake to eat the fruit cocktail?

Thread #1
Thread #2

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Why would JonBenet bother with the size-12s if they were simply a carbon copy of the Bloomingdales size-6 that Patsy said she purchased for JonBenet?

UKGuy,
I have no idea why JB would dress herself like this. Like you said she would have immediately stepped out of them when they fell to the ground.

My money is on John or Burke dressing JonBenet in those size-12s. The big question is how would John know anything about the size-12s, which were likely stored in Patsy's room, prior to gift-wrapping?

We can fit BR into having prior knowledge of the size-12s as he is allegedly on record stating he searched the basement on Christmas Day afternoon, q.v. Kolar.

JR would have noticed if he was the one SA JB. BR more then likely saw his mom wrapping the size 12’s in the laundry room in the basement (Christmas afternoon). PR attested to this being her reason for being in the basement. When PR stated she put the size 12’s in JB drawer and they were free game, IMO she was covering for BR.

So unless the parents have fitted BR up, knowing he would face no sanctions due to his age, as Patsy took the rap for him by stating she PEEKED at some gifts, then there is his penknife and footprint present at the crime-scene, no smoking gun, but BDI is currently the best fit for the available forensic evidence?

But what about PR fiber evidence all over the place?

BTW Patsy peeking at some gifts prompts: how would she have known who to address which wrapped gift to?

Because when you gift wrap and ship you always include a tag. I have had several gift wrapping gigs in my lifetime.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

That leaves the underwear style and colorway as the only means to identify purchase timeline for the size-12s?

This assumes there was indeed such a change, clued up members might be able to confirm any such changes, say from 2007 onwards?

UKGuy,
We have admission from PR that she purchased the size 12 bloomies.

2007 onward Bloomingdale’s did not offer size 12 days of the week for girls.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,
The intruder also wiped JonBenet down.

Consider:
January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
755 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado

But if the killer wiped down JonBenet before putting the underwear on, where did the blood and urine come from? Unless, of course, it's because those were the underwear she was already wearing when she was taken from her bed.

Also the Intruder sexually assaulted JonBenet.

Consider:
January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
755 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado

So we can exclude the remaining underwear being used to wipe her down.

There is NO evidence to suggest JonBenet wore the size-12s to the White's Party, they would be way too large for the black pants JonBenet did wear. You can see them in the next photograph.

They weren't padded, it's in no way impossible.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Wonder why he did not advise his wife of such? Instead he handed BPD her notepad.

We do have from Bode Technology PR and BR dna found to be on the Barbie nightgown and the long Johns. Why both of them?

Yes, indeed! As you said we do not have all dna results in this case. Somebody is hiding something. BPD?

Rain on my Parade,

Wonder why he did not advise his wife of such? Instead he handed BPD her notepad.

Could be they both thought that BPD would fall for the PDI staging?

We do have from Bode Technology PR and BR dna found to be on the Barbie nightgown and the long Johns. Why both of them?

Probably because Patsy in cleaning up BR's childish staging, she leaves some of her own behind, alternatively it's simply environmental cross-transfer, quite a long-shot since it arrived at the heart of the crime-scene!

Yes, indeed! As you said we do not have all dna results in this case. Somebody is hiding something. BPD?

You bet there is. IMO BPD are just covering their backs, well from away back then. They assume there will never be a court case, but just in case they keep some forensic evidence stored away, enough to show they had a case?

JonBenet's underwear is one example, does it include the size-6 Bloomingdales Patsy purchased for JonBenet on her New York Trip?

Then there should be a map of all the dna profiles recovered from JonBenet's person, which should include those of Patsy, John, and Burke, and precisely where they were recovered?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
We have admission from PR that she purchased the size 12 bloomies.

2007 onward Bloomingdale’s did not offer size 12 days of the week for girls.

Rain on my Parade,
Was it LW who returned the size-12s? No size-12s available from 2007, now that is a result.

There is always ebay or paying some PI to look far and wide? Excluding that either BPD were inefficient in their search, or the Ramsey's smuggled them out of the house via Pamela, when she did her Supermarket Sweep?

Then later on the Ramsey's realized how important they were, particularly if they stayed missing, i.e. Intruder steals clean underwear!

Yes, Patsy purchased the Bloomingdales size-12s, but for her niece, not JonBenet!

If JonBenet really wanted the size-12s, Patsy could just have phoned Bloomingdales and asked for a repeat order to be fedexed to Boulder, ASAP?

.

 

[UKGuy]

But if the killer wiped down JonBenet before putting the underwear on, where did the blood and urine come from? Unless, of course, it's because those were the underwear she was already wearing when she was taken from her bed.



So we can exclude the remaining underwear being used to wipe her down.



They weren't padded, it's in no way impossible.

FergusMcDuck,

They weren't padded, it's in no way impossible.

Sure, but highly unlikely.

Remember Patsy says she undressed JonBenet for bed and never noticed if she was wearing underwear.

.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,

Sure, but highly unlikely.

I wouldn't say that.

Remember Patsy says she undressed JonBenet for bed and never noticed if she was wearing underwear.

No, she remembered that she was wearing underwear, just not what underwear she was wearing.

 

[UKGuy]

I wouldn't say that.



No, she remembered that she was wearing underwear, just not what underwear she was wearing.

FergusMcDuck,

No, she remembered that she was wearing underwear, just not what underwear she was wearing.

Incorrect. Patsy develops a bout of amnesia whilst being questioned.

August 2000 Patsy Ramsey Atlanta Interview, Excerpt

5 Q. When you came home and you got
16 her ready for bed, did you notice if she was
17 wearing panties? When you changed her out
18 of the black velvet --
19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
20 Q. - type pants --
21 A. Right.
22 Q. -- and into the long underwear
23 pants --
24 A. Uh-huh, right.
25 Q. -- the White ones, did you notice

0113
1 if she had a pair of panties on?
2 A. Yes, she did. I believe she did.
3 Q. Why do you remember that? I
4 mean, what do you remember? I just want to
5 know what you remember about that.
6 A. Well, I took the jeans off and
7 put the long leggies on.
8 Q. And you noticed that she had
9 panties on in that process?
10 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
11 Q. You have to answer yes or no.
12 A. Well, I noticed -- I mean,
13 nothing was unusual. I mean, if she hadn't
14 had panties on, it would have been unusual.
15 So --
16 Q. So there was nothing unusual
17 there?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. When you actually removed those --
20 you have -- they are black velvet pants?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did the panties come down
23 with them when you removed those pants, if
24 you remember?
25 A. I don't remember.

Patsy never confirms she observed JonBenet wearing underwear, particularly Bloomingdale's size-12!

Just that nothing was unusual , she simply replies "Uh-huh" to most questions and ends with saying she cannot recall, etc.

Patsy's position is that she never knew what underwear JonBenet dressed in to attend the White's Christmas Party, and despite claiming she undressed JonBenet for bed on Christmas Night, she never knew what underwear she was wearing, i.e. "I don't remember".

Also if you accept Patsy's account , i.e. "Yes, she did. I believe she did." then the underwear JonBenet was wearing must have been size-6 underwear, since according to Patsy "nothing was unusual." The Bloomingdale's size-12s would have been manifestly unusual due to their size!

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Could be they both thought that BPD would fall for the PDI staging?

Looks like some serious anger issues here. PR telling JR he isn’t the only fat cat around and he needs to grow a brain. Not to mention they didn’t console one another.

Probably because Patsy in cleaning up BR's childish staging, she leaves some of her own behind, alternatively it's simply environmental cross-transfer, quite a long-shot since it arrived at the heart of the crime-scene!

Yet, why are they found in the same location (interior/exterior)?

Then there should be a map of all the dna profiles recovered from JonBenet's person, which should include those of Patsy, John, and Burke, and precisely where they were recovered?

= coverup

 

[Rain on my Parade]

There is always ebay or paying some PI to look far and wide? Excluding that either BPD were inefficient in their search, or the Ramsey's smuggled them out of the house via Pamela, when she did her Supermarket Sweep?

UKGuy,
eBay purchase has been speculated @ for many a year and a great possibility. Speaking of PP supermarket sweep (does the average Joe get to do this after a murder was committed in the home)? I think not.

Then later on the Ramsey's realized how important they were, particularly if they stayed missing, i.e. Intruder steals clean underwear!

Smiling

Yes, Patsy purchased the Bloomingdales size-12s, but for her niece, not JonBenet!

If JonBenet really wanted the size-12s, Patsy could just have phoned Bloomingdales and asked for a repeat order to be fedexed to Boulder, ASAP?

Makes one wonder why she didn’t pick up 2 packages?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

FergusMcDuck,

Incorrect. Patsy develops a bout of amnesia whilst being questioned.

Nothing in that quote contradicts what I said.

Patsy never confirms she observed JonBenet wearing underwear, particularly Bloomingdale's size-12!

Just that nothing was unusual , she simply replies "Uh-huh" to most questions and ends with saying she cannot recall, etc.

Patsy's position is that she never knew what underwear JonBenet dressed in to attend the White's Christmas Party, and despite claiming she undressed JonBenet for bed on Christmas Night, she never knew what underwear she was wearing, i.e. "I don't remember".

Also if you accept Patsy's account , i.e. "Yes, she did. I believe she did." then the underwear JonBenet was wearing must have been size-6 underwear, since according to Patsy "nothing was unusual." The Bloomingdale's size-12s would have been manifestly unusual due to their size!

That does not follow.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

There is always ebay or paying some PI to look far and wide? Excluding that either BPD were inefficient in their search, or the Ramsey's smuggled them out of the house via Pamela, when she did her Supermarket Sweep?

UKGuy,
eBay purchase has been speculated @ for many a year and a great possibility. Speaking of PP supermarket sweep (does the average Joe get to do this after a murder was committed in the home)? I think not.

Then later on the Ramsey's realized how important they were, particularly if they stayed missing, i.e. Intruder steals clean underwear!

Smiling

Yes, Patsy purchased the Bloomingdales size-12s, but for her niece, not JonBenet!

If JonBenet really wanted the size-12s, Patsy could just have phoned Bloomingdales and asked for a repeat order to be fedexed to Boulder, ASAP?

Makes one wonder why she didn’t pick up 2 packages?

 

[UKGuy]

Nothing in that quote contradicts what I said.



That does not follow.

FergusMcDuck,
Surely not a non-sequiter? And nothing contradicts your claims, nothing new here.

Patsy, Atlanta 2000 Interview

20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,

Here is Patsy saying the size-12s were already open.

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
eBay purchase has been speculated @ for many a year and a great possibility. Speaking of PP supermarket sweep (does the average Joe get to do this after a murder was committed in the home)? I think not.

Smiling

Makes one wonder why she didn’t pick up 2 packages?

Rain on my Parade,
Patsy is just making the size-12 story up as she is interviewed, apparently she never knew about the size-12's right up to the interview.

PP's sweep through the house tells you everything you want to know. Was it pre-arranged via a cell phone call?

If you parse Patsy's account of her NY trip with JonBenet. She purchased one pack of size-6 Bloomingdales for JonBenet and one Pack of size-12 Bloomingdales for Jenny, her niece, and any extra would not only mean there is a missing pack of size-6/size12 Bloomingdales, never mind what they returned.

She never picked up two packets as she thought Jenny would be happy with one, and at that point in time JonBenet had not expressed a desire to wear underwear meant for someone twice her age.

I'll bet JonBenet was pleased with the size-6 Bloomingdales, not any old run of the mill underwear.

If the case was PDI, then Patsy would have made sure the remaining size-12 Bloomingdales were in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

BPD stated no-size-12s were recovered from JonBenet's underwear drawer!


This blew a hole in Patsy's version of events.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Looks like some serious anger issues here. PR telling JR he isn’t the only fat cat around and he needs to grow a brain. Not to mention they didn’t console one another.

Yet, why are they found in the same location (interior/exterior)?

= coverup

Rain on my Parade,
On the DNA Lacy was told by the lab that the result might be that of more than one person.

She was just doing a Ramsey whitewash job, claiming it was that of an intruder. There are professionals on record citing that the dna is likely a mixture, a potential chimera, as it was eventually hacked together to make the grade for CODIS.

It is no good for a court case, it has never been re-examined for fidelity.

So it would never be offered as a production in court, since dna professionals would suggest nobody with the CODIS profile exists, as its just a tweaked chimera.

This does point to a coverup, the question is who was being protected one of the parents or Burke?

.

 

[Eddie99]

It's pretty wild that y'all can speak to someone's motives, intentions and reasoning when it comes to buying a pack of underwear.

Very intuitive.

 

[UKGuy]

It's pretty wild that y'all can speak to someone's motives, intentions and reasoning when it comes to buying a pack of underwear.

Very intuitive.

Eddie99,
It's not intuitive as all my conclusions are based on Patsy Ramsey's claims regarding the size-12 Bloomingdales.

Simply read her Atlanta 2000 BPD Interview and you will find Patsy Ramsey purchased one pack of size-6 Bloomingdales for JonBenet and one pack of size-12 Bloomingdales for Jenny her niece.

The reasoning is simple: if Patsy had purchased two or more packs of size-12 underwear then one of these should have been available for JonBenet, suggesting there would have been two packs of size-12 Bloomingdales for the BPD search team to find.

Since the above size-12 Bloomingdales scenario does not hold, then Patsy must have purchased one pack of Bloomingdales size-6 for JonBenet and one pack of Bloomingdales size-12 for Jenny.

BPD say all the underwear found in JonBenet's underwear drawer was either size-6 or size-4.

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,
Patsy is just making the size-12 story up as she is interviewed, apparently she never knew about the size-12's right up to the interview.

PP's sweep through the house tells you everything you want to know. Was it pre-arranged via a cell phone call?

If you parse Patsy's account of her NY trip with JonBenet. She purchased one pack of size-6 Bloomingdales for JonBenet and one Pack of size-12 Bloomingdales for Jenny, her niece, and any extra would not only mean there is a missing pack of size-6/size12 Bloomingdales, never mind what they returned.

She never picked up two packets as she thought Jenny would be happy with one, and at that point in time JonBenet had not expressed a desire to wear underwear meant for someone twice her age.

I'll bet JonBenet was pleased with the size-6 Bloomingdales, not any old run of the mill underwear.

If the case was PDI, then Patsy would have made sure the remaining size-12 Bloomingdales were in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

BPD stated no-size-12s were recovered from JonBenet's underwear drawer!


This blew a hole in Patsy's version of events.


.

UKGuy,
Great explanation!

 

[Rain on my Parade]

This does point to a coverup, the question is who was being protected one of the parents or Burke?

UKGuy,
JR not only failed to protect PR; he basically pointed the finger right at her. As, PR attacked JR in the RN.
JR could have made JB his good little girl. It is also possible that PR was jealous of JB because of this relationship. This might help explain the distance between the couple.
And then on the other hand, it could have been BR. Since he took after his father with his anger issues, maybe he just had enough w/JB on Christmas night.
I understand your thoughts that the original attack occurred in JB bedroom. Where are the missing pink pajamas pants? Whose fecal stained pajamas were lying on JB floor (that were much too big for JB)? Why was the drape behind her bed in such disarray?
And then the basement was the staging area. If this is this case I do believe that JB was grievously harmed before transferring her to the basement.