MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #4

[Mskin]

I know mass often handles cases this way... Tight lipped. I've read multiple documents published via FBI web pages that discuss ways to handle the public and media. The tight lipped approach is valid, but doesn't appear to be their preferred. I understand the need to keep information and details under wrap and out of the public. But at the same time, LE has an obligation to inform the public. Ensure them they are still on the case, keep public actively thinking about the case and producing tips, and let them know if there is still a threat. It's not fair to keep a community on eggshells if they believe a threat is diminished. If they've narrowed this down to a "crime of passion" or isolated incident, or they know the assailant is no longer a public threat, they can inform the public in a sensative, non disclosing way without giving up suspects or details of the case - and should.


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[Inthedetails]

Deleting....don't want to bite the argument bait, so nevermind.

 

[ThinkHard]

It is frustrating knowing so few details....

What we do know is she had a regular schedule, and it was a remote location. It happened on a sunny Sunday afternoon in early August btw the hours of 1-3.

We know she purchased a drink at Mnt side market around noon, and that she had a 430 bus ticket out of Worcesrter.

We know she worked for Google and lived in NYC for the past year or so. And before that she worked and lived in the Boston area.

We know she grew up in Leominster, attended Bancroft (graduated in 2007), is an only child, her mother is 100% Italian, and she went to BU to study media (graduated in 2011).

We know she was a runner, a tutor, and suffered from Chrohns.

We know her dad lives in Leominster and her mom has been living in Princeton.

We know her body was found at 8:20pm approximately 4 hours after they began searching for her.

The media tells us, but LE has not confirmed or denied the following.....sexual assault, strangulation, nudity, burns, and DNA.

LE has asked for publics help with two specific things: spotting vehicles that day and spotting a man with scratches and bruises.

....Did I miss anything?

 

[Inthedetails]

It is frustrating knowing so few details....

What we do know is she had a regular schedule, and it was a remote location. It happened on a sunny Sunday afternoon in early August btw the hours of 1-3.

We know she purchased a drink at Mnt side market around noon, and that she had a 430 bus ticket out of Worcesrter.

We know she worked for Google and lived in NYC for the past year or so. And before that she worked and lived in the Boston area.

We know she grew up in Leominster, attended Bancroft (graduated in 2007), is an only child, her mother is 100% Italian, and she went to BU to study media (graduated in 2011).

We know she was a runner, a tutor, and suffered from Chrohns.

We know her dad lives in Leominster and her mom has been living in Princeton.

We know her body was found at 8:20pm approximately 4 hours after they began searching for her.

The media tells us, but LE has not confirmed or denied the following.....sexual assault, strangulation, nudity, burns, and DNA.

LE has asked for publics help with two specific things: spotting vehicles that day and spotting a man with scratches and bruises.

....Did I miss anything?

No known boyfriend, no known conflicts with anyone, no known unwanted attention.

Visited mom regularly.

 

[ThinkHard]

I know I am in the minority here and that's ok, but I really do think the person who killed her was someone she knew. As most murders are committed by people familiar to the victim.

I just think that's far more likely then a boogieman in the woods. JMO of course.

And I think the answers to whom that may be, I believe are hidden in the great deal of information on her private life that has not been made public. People are complex creatures. I'm not accusing her of doing anything nefarious. I just think we have a very superficial image of who Vanessa was because of our limited knowledge and in my experience people are just more complicated then their public image.

 

[1306kayaker]

No known boyfriend, no known conflicts with anyone, no known unwanted attention.

Visited mom regularly.

MSM also reported that her clothes, head buds, and 1 shoe were missing but that 1 burned shoe was found. The Boston Globe reported that she was partially clothed when she was found.

She was found 100 yards into the woods.


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[Inthedetails]

I know I am in the minority here and that's ok, but I really do think the person who killed her was someone she knew. As most murders are committed by people familiar to the victim.

I just think that's far more likely then a boogieman in the woods. JMO of course.

And I think the answers to whom that may be, I believe are hidden in the great deal of information on her private life that has not been made public. People are complex creatures. I'm not accusing her of doing anything nefarious. I just think we have a very superficial image of who Vanessa was because of our limited knowledge and in my experience people are just more complicated then their public image.

I would maybe be more open to that idea if it weren't for her Crohn's. I think the uncomfortable and indelicate symptoms, the diagnosis, and the learning to live with the condition took much time and attention, allowing precious little time for a complex personal life.

But we've discussed this enough already, I suppose.

I don't rule out someone she knew or who watched her....but that idea is on equal footing in my mind as a random attack. Everything about this case is unlikely, imo.

jmOPINION

 

[ThinkHard]

I would maybe be more open to that idea if it weren't for her Crohn's. I think the uncomfortable and indelicate symptoms, the diagnosis, and the learning to live with the condition took much time and attention, allowing precious little time for a complex personal life.

But we've discussed this enough already, I suppose.

I don't rule out someone she knew or who watched her....but that idea is on equal footing in my mind as a random attack. Everything about this case is unlikely, imo.

jmOPINION

I don't think her knowing her murderer means that the only option is via romantically. I think their are many other possibilities.

I deal with a chronic illness that came on in my late 20's as well, not Chrohns however, and it keeps me from full time employment and while it's still a struggle for me to deal with and manage its ups and downs, and can certainly halt plans around my social life, I intentionally do not let it define my entire life.

So I'm not sure, at least in my mind, having Chrohns would make VM any less of a complex character. I don't think what we know about her is even close to all there is to know. In other words I don't think differences btw ones public image and private life would be negated just because she had a disease.

 

[Inthedetails]

I don't think her knowing her murderer means that the only option is via romantically. I think their are many other possibilities.

I deal with a chronic illness that came on in my late 20's as well, not Chrohns however, and it keeps me from full time employment and while it's still a struggle for me to deal with and manage its ups and downs, and can certainly halt plans around my social life, I intentionally do not let it define my entire life.

So I'm not sure, at least in my mind, having Chrohns would make VM any less of a complex character. I don't think what we know about her is even close to all there is to know. In other words I don't think differences btw ones public image and private life would be negated just because she had a disease.

She was just diagnosed in December. The symptoms leading up to that diagnosis likely prohibited some otherwise expected activities of someone her age. I do think she was active in life (though probably not dating). I just don't see her as secretive and complex as you do.

But, I've said enough. I base this on my experience with someone in my life who was diagnosed with this disease and have seen what impact it has made on her life.

I'll await more info from LE.

jmopinion

 

[Forager]

Bumping the case map link to get it on to Thread 4.

 

[ThinkHard]

She was just diagnosed in December. The symptoms leading up to that diagnosis likely prohibited some otherwise expected activities of someone her age. I do think she was active in life (though probably not dating). I just don't see her as secretive and complex as you do.

But, I've said enough. I base this on my experience with someone in my life who was diagnosed with this disease and have seen what impact it has made on her life.

I'll await more info from LE.

jmopinion

I did use the word complex but I did not say secretive. I think you are very much misinterpreting what I mean when I say people are more complex then their public image. Just because I said our comprehension of who she was is likely very superficial and doesn't go into the depth of who she was, doesn't mean those who were close to her didn't know greater details that could be helping investigators. Just because things aren't privy to us, doesn't mean they don't exist, nor does it mean she was secretive.

Just think if you were a victim, what about you would become available through MSM, what conclusions would people draw about who you are and how you lived with just clips of information from your life. It's so easy to play up the significance of someThings and downplay that of others if your lens is narrowed and one can't see the whole picture. When I think of it this way, im 100% positive people would make inferences about me that were innacuarate if I ever became a victim.

I feel like you are taking me to say humans are more complex then public image, as though it's a bad thing. And that I'm somehow accusing VM of secretly being a sketchy character.

But that is not what I am saying at all, I am simply saying she was human, and our lens is narrow.

 

[1306kayaker]

Bumping the case map link to get it on to Thread 4.

View attachment 102082

Great map - thanks for making!

At one point it was reported that LE found and removed evidence from the woods 1/2 mile south of her body. The original link no longer contains this info but just want to give you the option of adding it.

Somewhat interesting - 1/2 mile south of her body is in the vicinity of Sam Cobb Lane and, at 10:43 pm on Sunday night, there was a call reported in the Landmark police log of something in the woods on Sam Cobb Lane. It was probably just the police but LE didn't find evidence in this vicinity until Thursday.

 

[Inthedetails]

I did use the word complex but I did not say secretive. I think you are very much misinterpreting what I mean when I say people are more complex then their public image. Just because I said our comprehension of who she was is likely very superficial and doesn't go into the depth of who she was, doesn't mean those who were close to her didn't know greater details that could be helping investigators. Just because things aren't privy to us, doesn't mean they don't exist, nor does it mean she was secretive.

Just think if you were a victim, what about you would become available through MSM, what conclusions would people draw about who you are and how you lived with just clips of information from your life. It's so easy to play up the significance of someThings and downplay that of others if your lens is narrowed and one can't see the whole picture. When I think of it this way, im 100% positive people would make inferences about me that were innacuarate.

I feel like you are taking me to say humans are more complex then public image as though it's a bad thing. And that I'm somehow accusing VM of secretly being a sketchy character.

But that is not what I am saying at all, I am simply saying she was human, and our lens is narrow.

You have mentioned previously that you thought Vanessa might have met with someone that afternoon when she told her mom she was going for a jog. I would call that secretive, if true.

I don't see her that way. We don't have to agree.

I don't see complex as bad. It just is what it is...and I think Vanessa is what she appears to be, and that is not complex. You interpret differently. It's okay.

And, to answer your question, if I went missing and people looked at my social media, they would think I'm a great cook. And then LE would look at my computer and see all the strange topics I search because of WS - and then my social circle would have certainly something to talk about, lol! (I am a great cook, btw.)

jmo

 

[ThinkHard]

Great map - thanks for making!

At one point it was reported that LE found and removed evidence from the woods 1/2 mile south of her body. The original link no longer contains this info but just want to give you the option of adding it.

Somewhat interesting - 1/2 mile south of her body is in the vicinity of Sam Cobb Lane and, at 10:43 pm on Sunday night, there was a call reported in the Landmark police log of something in the woods on Sam Cobb Lane. It was probably just the police but LE didn't find evidence in this vicinity until Thursday.

Its possible they didn't find evidence their until later because it would have been dark searching around the woods at quarter of 11 at night, and when they expanded their search during daylight hours they obviously had better visibility.

That said though, I do remember reports of them searching down that part of the road, but no reports of them every finding anything. The on,y evidence I remember them finding after she was found was whatever was carried out in the brown paper bag near the crime scene.

 

[1306kayaker]

Its possible they didn't find evidence their until later because it would have been dark searching around the woods at quarter of 11 at night, and when they expanded their search during daylight hours they obviously had better visibility.

That said though, I do remember reports of them searching down that part of the road, but no reports of them every finding anything. The on,y evidence I remember them finding after she was found was whatever was carried out in the brown paper bag near the crime scene.

That's the evidence I'm referring to - I'm fairly certain the original article said that searchers found it 1/2 mile south of her body but since the original article no longer contains that info, perhaps I'm misremembering and it shouldn't be considered.

I'm not familiar with how quickly LE normally searches a crime scene - does it seem normal that they would be searching the woods 1/2 mile away 2 hours after the body was found? There was a large police response and they did have dogs.


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[Mainely16]

double post - how do i remove this one?? thanks!

 

[Mainely16]

The college I attended, Mount Holyoke College, is idyllic. It's campus is gorgeous and serene, the students brilliant and hard working, activities abound, and darn, the food was among the best in my life. I am 45 now. I would do just about anything to move back to that oasis of intellectualism, inspirational peers and faculty, and a lifestyle that, for me, has been unmatched.

By that, I'm sure you could see no one could have pulled me away from that campus, a place where I studied challenging material, enjoyed my new peers, and worked on the side to earn some money. My whole life was there. My parents were about 1.5 hours a way, also divorced. I loved and missed them very much, but I was a "big girl" and was enjoying building a life away from home. I returned home on vacations, summers, and maybe for a weekend every 5-6 weeks. In the midst of that, one or both of my parents would save me the trip and come see me for some family bonding. Thus, I didn't disrupt the million things I had going on, but still saw my parents.

This continued as I graduated from Mount Holyoke (waaaaaahhh) and then went on to grad school at Harvard. Cambridge is great. I was making new friends. As a young adult, especially since I was from the Sterling/Princeton area, the world was suddenly big, open, and full of amazing opportunities. I knew I was lucky, and occasionally craved a visit home. But, I was so busy. School and work obligations don't always end at Friday at 5:30. I had a job at a library that I enjoyed, and taught 2 7th grade classes.

Another similarity to VM - I have a chronic disease that reared itself at birth. I have logged many months in hospitals. During college, I was on a wealth of meds and was continually monitored. And yes, when I became acutely ill, I did miss my parents more, but left for home only if I could manage to miss days at school/work. I had also gotten used to taken care of its ins and outs over the years, for what it's worth. As a working professional, I didn't have time to travel home, and honestly the travel could exhaust me and I'd sometimes return sicker than when I left...

That was status quo for many years.

But then...I got a stalker. It was my senior year of college and she was a freshman. It was a female and she tormented me night and day. At first, it was little gifts and notes, and then things became stranger...She learned my schedule and was standing outside my classes, for example. She started dressing exactly like me. The school put me in the infirmary until I could make other plans, but she somehow sneaked into the infirmary, which set me off. It was at that point I felt I was in very serious trouble. I no longer wanted to be at my idyllic campus...even though graduation was near. I began going home more frequently, and at one point stayed a week and worked on schoolwork from home.

One day, a friend from back at school said my stalker had been gone for two days. My family went on alert. End of story - she had taken a bus, then a cab to my town and was asking around at small stores (again, we lived in a Princeton like town) where my family lived. We were very well known in town bc my dad coached numerous youth teams. Within hours that day a cab came up the driveway. Behind it, a couple of cop cars. From there, she was kicked out of school and sent across the country where she lives and I have never heard from her again.

It is amazing what stalkers will do. One of her notes told me that I just didn't know that I loved her yet, but I would soon.

I could go on and on. In VM's case, we are privy to no such stories, but when that was happening, my health was plummeting. I ended up in the hospital for acute respiratory problems, and even spent a few days in a "rest facility" trying to peel back the terror and paranoia I'd been feeling for so long.

Through all of this, I was a 4.0 student, looked healthy, smiled and laughed at people, and "seemed just great"...The things we don't know about others' lives...

These remembrances keep me tuned into VM, and I am consistently running through options. The addition of social media, I think, would have ramped up my situation, but this was back in the 90s. My stalker would have had more pics, more info, more ideas where I would be, who my friends are, scheduling, etc...Obsessive people will stop at nothing for just another shred of that person's life, one they feel is partially, or even completely, theirs.

 

[Inthedetails]

The college I attended, Mount Holyoke College, is idyllic. It's campus is gorgeous and serene, the students brilliant and hard working, activities abound, and darn, the food was among the best in my life. I am 45 now. I would do just about anything to move back to that oasis of intellectualism, inspirational peers and faculty, and a lifestyle that, for me, has been unmatched.

By that, I'm sure you could see no one could have pulled me away from that campus, a place where I studied challenging material, enjoyed my new peers, and worked on the side to earn some money. My whole life was there. My parents were about 1.5 hours a way, also divorced. I loved and missed them very much, but I was a "big girl" and was enjoying building a life away from home. I returned home on vacations, summers, and maybe for a weekend every 5-6 weeks. In the midst of that, one or both of my parents would save me the trip and come see me for some family bonding. Thus, I didn't disrupt the million things I had going on, but still saw my parents.

This continued as I graduated from Mount Holyoke (waaaaaahhh) and then went on to grad school at Harvard. Cambridge is great. I was making new friends. As a young adult, especially since I was from the Sterling/Princeton area, the world was suddenly big, open, and full of amazing opportunities. I knew I was lucky, and occasionally craved a visit home. But, I was so busy. School and work obligations don't always end at Friday at 5:30.

Another similarity to VM - I have a chronic disease that reared itself at birth. I have logged many months in hospitals. During college, I was on a wealth of meds and was continually monitored. And yes, when I became acutely ill, I did miss my parents more, but left for home only if I could manage to miss days at school/work. I had also gotten used to taken care of its ins and outs over the years, for what it's worth.

That was status quo for many years.

But then...I got a stalker. It was my senior year of college and she was a freshman. It was a female and she tormented me night and day. At first, it was little gifts and notes, and then things became stranger...She learned my schedule and was standing outside my classes, for example. She started dressing exactly like me. The school put me in the infirmary until I could make other plans, but she somehow sneaked into the infirmary, which pretty much set me off. It was at that point I felt I was in very serious trouble. I no longer wanted to be at my idyllic campus...even though graduation was near. I began going home more frequently, and at one point stayed a week and worked on schoolwork from home.

One day, a friend from back at school said my stalker had been gone for two days. My family went on alert. End of story - she had taken a bus, then a cab to my town and was asking around at small stores (again, we lived in a Princeton like town) where my family lived. We were very well known in town bc my dad coached numerous youth teams. Within hours that day a cab came up the driveway. Behind it, a couple of cop cars. From there, she was kicked out of school and send across the country where she lives and I have never heard from her again.

It is amazing what stalkers will do. One of her notes told me that I just didn't know that I loved her yet, but I would soon.

I could go on and on. In VM's case, we are privy to no such stories, but when that was happening, my health was plummeting. I ended up in the hospital for acute respiratory problems, and even spent a few days in a "rest facility" trying to peel back the terror and paranoia I'd been feeling for so long.

Through all of this, I was a 4.0 student, looked healthy, smiled and laughed at people, and "seemed just great"...The things we don't know about others' lives...

These remembrances keep me tuned into VM, and I am consistently running through options. The addition of social media, I think, may have ramped up my situation, but this was back in the 90s. My stalker would have had more pics, more info, more ideas where I would be, who my friends are, scheduling, etc...Obsessive people will stop at nothing for just another shred of that person's life, one they feel is partially, or even completely, theirs.

I am so sorry to hear this happened to you. Must have been very disturbing!

You have many similarities with Vanessa, so I ask would you have jogged/walked on your own during the stalking time? Or did you feel safe enough to jog/walk like Vanessa did that day?

 

[ThinkHard]

That's the evidence I'm referring to - I'm fairly certain the original article said that searchers found it 1/2 mile south of her body but since the original article no longer contains that info, perhaps I'm misremembering and it shouldn't be considered.

I'm not familiar with how quickly LE normally searches a crime scene - does it seem normal that they would be searching the woods 1/2 mile away 2 hours after the body was found? There was a large police response and they did have dogs.


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I believe the bag they took out was from the crime scene not the search 1/2 mile away because I believe the article was about them returning to the crime scene.....but I don't know for sure and we can't really back it up either way so I guess it's kind of a moot point. would be helpful to know though.

Anyway. That sighting would be 2hours and 23 minutes after her body was discovered. I'm pretty sure when they were searching they likely had multiple location around BSR they were simultaneously looking at so probably multiple search groups.

In the police log I know the FD was summoned to the crime scene at around 11pm, and neighbors reported having the police knock on their door at 1:30am to ask if they had seen anything.......so I'm thinking it's likely at 10:43 there was still police out there searching for things or people or trying to follow a trail...who knows.

 

[ThinkHard]

You have mentioned previously that you thought Vanessa might have met with someone that afternoon when she told her mom she was going for a jog. I would call that secretive, if true.

I don't see her that way. We don't have to agree.

I don't see complex as bad. It just is what it is...and I think Vanessa is what she appears to be, and that is not complex. You interpret differently. It's okay.

And, to answer your question, if I went missing and people looked at my social media, they would think I'm a great cook. And then LE would look at my computer and see all the strange topics I search because of WS - and then my social circle would have certainly something to talk about, lol! (I am a great cook, btw.)

jmo

What LE looks at on your computer wouldn't become public info to MSM though. If your social media is set to private people wouldn't learn that about you either.

I have thrown out a lot of theories as I just try to think through things, many of them contradict each other. We have limited information, that's what happens; sort, process, speculate.

But you are taking what I wrote today out of context, you are implying things I did not say, because of things I've speculated on in the past and in doing so twisted my words and meaning. Today all I said was I believe she knew her killer. You took it to another place.