Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #24

[SouthAussie]

Wouldn't autopilot constitute control inputs? If an engine flames out, I would assume that the AP would correct for the yaw and the plane would straighten but burn fuel at an increasing rate.

Yes, then they say the 2nd engine would flame out within minutes .. at which point auto pilot would disconnect.

Some forums believe that after AP disconnected that the plane would plummet nose down, then rise up a little, then plummet again, then rise up a little again (due to aerodynamics) in an S until it hit the surface. It could do this for 100 NM they say.

But if it hit uneven air currents once AP disconnected, it could send it into a spiral.

 

[2rose]

I had read that this was Fariq Hamid's first flight as a fully approved pilot, his first flight without a check co pilot but I had not heard this was his first time in a cockpit with Capt Shah.
If this was his first time ever flying with Shah then it lends legitimacy to the video

Oh, well maybe I am not remembering correctly.
Maybe just that they didn't ask to fly together.
Will see if I can find a reference.

 

[Intermezzo]

Investigators have doubts that the plane ascended to 45,000ft because Malaysian radar equipment had not been calibrated with enough precision

Malaysian Jet Was in Controlled Flight After Contact Was Lost, Officials Suspect

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/w...0140624&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=29625191&_r=1 JUNE 23, 2014

Investigators have concluded that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, which veered off course and disappeared on March 8, was probably not seriously damaged in the air and remained in controlled flight for hours after contact with it was lost, until it ran out of fuel over the southern Indian Ocean.

But a comprehensive international review has found that the Malaysian radar equipment had not been calibrated with enough precision to draw any conclusions about the aircraft’s true altitude. “The primary radar data pertaining to altitude is regarded as unreliable,” said Angus Houston, the retired head of the Australian military who is now coordinating the search.

If the plane did not soar and swoop, but maintained a steadier altitude, its fuel would have lasted longer, letting it fly farther south across the Indian Ocean before its tanks ran dry. So the dismissal of the radar altitude data prompted a change in the focus of the search.

Private telecommunications analysts who reviewed the handshakes also concluded that the more likely location of the plane was farther to the southwest.
_____________________________

I have considered for a while that the plane flew or crashed further southwest of Australia than they thought...it could be closer to edge of the Australia Search and Rescue Zone

 

[SouthAussie]

Malaysian Jet Was in Controlled Flight After Contact Was Lost, Officials Suspect

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/w...0140624&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=29625191&_r=1 JUNE 23, 2014

I guess they haven't read the ATSB report yet. The officials have said that they believe the plane was on autopilot ... that is the 'controlled flight' they are speaking of.

Also, among other things, the article says that a pilot would have had to be flying the plane for it to possibly glide 100+NM. The report actually does not say that at all .. and says it may glide (presumably not smoothly, and with no mention at all of a pilot) for 100+ NM, or it may spiral down.

 

[Intermezzo]

I guess they haven't read the ATSB report yet. The officials have said that they believe the plane was on autopilot ... that is the 'controlled flight' they are speaking of.

This article is from June 23 before the ATSB report came out
The ATSB report is dated June 26

But it seems there is disagreement in the ranks of the investigation some favour the Pilot hijacking the plane others believe it was on auto pilot due to smoke or fire

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/w...0140624&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=29625191&_r=1
Other officials involved in the crash investigation have suggested that either of the plane’s pilots might have commandeered the aircraft in order to commit suicide, or that a smoke from a fire in the fuselage might have overcome the pilots and passengers but left the engines and autopilot working normally.

 

[Hatfield]

I have read most of the thread; Kate did not say that. Took me a little bit until I got the key words right but I found the quote.


....snipped for space.....

Thanks for all the extra information.

Regarding the bolded part above, it does get real confusing but my main point based solely on my reading of all those posts there, which some could have been deleted by now, was that she did confirm herself that she did get paid by that website in some fashion. It was my understanding that she confirmed herself that she did get paid by that website in some capacity.

So that alone tells me there is a possible bias for her for creating a story that would bring more interest to that particular website.

Let me be clear that I am not saying she is lying but saying that I concluded after reading there that she herself admitted that she gets paid by the website so that was enough for me to take whatever she said with a huge grain of salt.

 

[Rhyolite]

Vietnam investigated Oil rig guy sighting and came up empty

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/19/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-ground-witnesses/

In fact, Vietnamese authorities dispatched aircraft last week to search for the plane, in response to McKay's report, the affiliate reported.

When the Vietnamese navy sent a plane to conduct a search, it found nothing, ABC News reported.
Vietnamese naval officer Le Minh Thanh told that network that the plane investigated the area cited by McKay, but the search came up empty.

Just because they found nothing, does not discredit the witnesses credibility.

 

[SouthAussie]

This article is from June 23 before the ATSB report came out
The ATSB report is dated June 26

But it seems there is disagreement in the ranks of the investigation some favour the Pilot hijacking the plane others believe it was on auto pilot due to smoke or fire

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/24/w...0140624&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=29625191&_r=1
Other officials involved in the crash investigation have suggested that either of the plane’s pilots might have commandeered the aircraft in order to commit suicide, or that a smoke from a fire in the fuselage might have overcome the pilots and passengers but left the engines and autopilot working normally.

Okay .. thanks. Did not look at the dates and have just spent hours reading the official report.

I'm very much leaning toward the analysis in the search report at this point in time .. it is well-written, and very explanatory. Something we have needed for a while.

 

[Rhyolite]

http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...ssible-location-for-mh370-20140319-hvkjq.html March 19, 2014

Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: Maldives discounted as possible location for MH370

Eyewitness reports of a possible sighting of missing Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370 flying near the Maldives have been officially discounted in a statement issued by the Maldives National Defended Force.

"Based on the monitoring up to date, no indication of Flight MH370 has been observed on any military radars in the country,” the statement said.

"Furthermore, the data of radars at Maldives airports have also been analysed and shows no indication of the said flight.

When asked about the possibility of a plane of this size landing on an isolated airstrip in the atolls, Maldives National Defence Force spokesman Major Hussain Ali said this was not possible.

“If you are asking are there any landing strips outside of the main commercial airports, the answer is no,” Major Hussain said.

The Australians have an extensive OTH radar network that looks over the ocean of the present search, yet they saw nothing on their radars.

 

[Hatfield]

The Australians have an extensive OTH radar network that looks over the ocean of the present search, yet they saw nothing on their radars.

That is what really bothers me about the current search location!!!
This is huge to me.
I would have expected the Austrailia Perth base to have spotted MH370 on their own radar. They were right there !!!

There should have been all kind of alarms going off that an unidentified aircraft was approaching.
It could have been an enemy.

I even looked up their weather radar for that day and unfortunately the weather radar doesnt quite show far enough to the left but they surely had radar in Perth that should have spotted the plane.

 

[Rhyolite]

I happen to think both fire reports appear to be shared with integrity. However,
after some analysis, I have to discount the oil rig sighting as being unconnected to
MH370, because of the fact that the sighting occurred in Vietnam airspace ... & the
Vietnamese air traffic controllers are adamant that their air space has no record of:

1) a plane identifying itself as MH370
2) an unknown plane which did NOT identify itself at all
(as witnessed by the Thailand military radar does about an hour later)



Since you are new to this thread, I will briefly mention once again that much like a long
distance telephone call, physical evidence exists on 4 separate computers to verify the fact
that a plane identified itself as MH370 for 6 hours in the early morning of 8 March 2014.

2 of the computers are currently unreachable:
1) the satellite computer
2) the satellite receiver on the plane.

The 2 computers on Earth that have been independantly verified are:
1) the Inmarsat computer (raw data released publicly)
2) the Australiean gound station computer.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/27/w...sat-right-quest-analysis/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

The aircraft fuselage could have just as likely been flotsam for 6 or 7 hours resting in the ocean at one location, or even flying in a far different direction. The doppler data is FALLIBLE!

Comms failures are explainable by fire damage to the aircraft and the fact that in the beginning of the IFE the flight crew would be occupied by an extensive (read it for yourself) 777 IFE fire checklist. Also don't forget they would be wearing O2 masks and radio comms would be a distraction they could not afford.

I am no stranger to this story. I have been reading everything in MSM for months and done my own research.

 

[Intermezzo]

Just because they found nothing, does not discredit the witnesses credibility.

No one discredited his credibility...he reported it, the search team must have thought his sighting credible since navy vessels and aircraft were sent and the area was searched

Many countries were involved in the initial search areas in the South China sea, gulf of Thailand, Malacca strait and Andaman sea

many ships and aircraft searched those areas and found nothing

they investigated the sightings, they investigated the Chinese satellite images of possible debris and the reports from Chinese scientists who observed seismic activity on the seafloor off the coast southern coast of Vietnam



Some posters believe that these eye witness sightings(the ones in the Maldives, in Malaysia and the oil rig guy) were not investigated..my posts were meant to show, with links to msm articles, that yes indeed they were investigated.

 

[SouthAussie]

The Australians have an extensive OTH radar network that looks over the ocean of the present search, yet they saw nothing on their radars.

I don't believe that we have said that we saw nothing. We have just said nothing ... well, not to MSM anyway.


"The radar is directed to specific areas or activities of interest. They can be used to observe air and sea activity, such as asylum boats travelling to Australia. To date the Australian Defence Force has not mentioned whether MH370 was observed, or surveillance data recorded, by JORN as the aircraft possibly headed southwest off the coast of Western Australia."

http://www.airtrafficmanagement.net/2014/04/mh370/

 

[Rhyolite]

Yes, then they say the 2nd engine would flame out within minutes .. at which point auto pilot would disconnect.

Some forums believe that after AP disconnected that the plane would plummet nose down, then rise up a little, then plummet again, then rise up a little again (due to aerodynamics) in an S until it hit the surface. It could do this for 100 NM they say.

But if it hit uneven air currents once AP disconnected, it could send it into a spiral.

Phugoid Mode of flight.

 

[Rhyolite]

I don't believe that we have said that we saw nothing. We have just said nothing ... well, not to MSM anyway.


"The radar is directed to specific areas or activities of interest. They can be used to observe air and sea activity, such as asylum boats travelling to Australia. To date the Australian Defence Force has not mentioned whether MH370 was observed, or surveillance data recorded, by JORN as the aircraft possibly headed southwest off the coast of Western Australia."

http://www.airtrafficmanagement.net/2014/04/mh370/

Do Tell!

 

[Intermezzo]

The Australians have an extensive OTH radar network that looks over the ocean of the present search, yet they saw nothing on their radars.

Australia has said little to nothing about what they saw or did not see on the OTH radar network

According to one report the radars were not pointing West at the time

Even though the OTH radars did not detect anything Australian investigative authorities believe they are searching in the right place..off the west coast of Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...857491352?nk=55552d2bb8087363f9aa5bb50834581c


Australia’s hopes of helping to solve the mystery have been dashed because the nation’s most powerful radar was not looking west towards the Indian Ocean at the time when the missing plane may have passed by Australia.

a preliminary investigation of all Australian intelligence, including military and civil radars, shows no record of the plane passing off Western Australia as Malaysian authorities have speculated.

This does not mean the plane did not pass through the area, just that it was not detected.

Instead of looking west, the nation’s $1.8 billion Over the Horizon radar system was believed to be looking north to help detect asylum-seekers as part of Operation Sovereign Borders.

 

[Hatfield]

I don't believe that we have said that we saw nothing. We have just said nothing ... well, not to MSM anyway.


"The radar is directed to specific areas or activities of interest. They can be used to observe air and sea activity, such as asylum boats travelling to Australia. To date the Australian Defence Force has not mentioned whether MH370 was observed, or surveillance data recorded, by JORN as the aircraft possibly headed southwest off the coast of Western Australia."

http://www.airtrafficmanagement.net/2014/04/mh370/

With all the world wide interest, I see no reason why Austrailia would not tell the public if they had corroborated seeing the plane on its radar.
That just does not make any sense to me because it would help assure the public that the search efforts and all the money being spent in that location is proper.

I have to conclude they did not see it. There is too much public critism about possibly waisting funds in the wrong area for them to not disclose a corrorobarated sighting if they had seen it as well.

 

[Hatfield]

Australia has said little to nothing about what they saw or did not see on the OTH radar network

According to one report the radars were not pointing West at the time

Even though the OTH radars did not detect anything Australian investigative authorities believe they are searching in the right place..off the west coast of Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...857491352?nk=55552d2bb8087363f9aa5bb50834581c


Australia’s hopes of helping to solve the mystery have been dashed because the nation’s most powerful radar was not looking west towards the Indian Ocean at the time when the missing plane may have passed by Australia.

a preliminary investigation of all Australian intelligence, including military and civil radars, shows no record of the plane passing off Western Australia as Malaysian authorities have speculated.

This does not mean the plane did not pass through the area, just that it was not detected.

Instead of looking west, the nation’s $1.8 billion Over the Horizon radar system was believed to be looking north to help detect asylum-seekers as part of Operation Sovereign Borders.

Now that I can believe. Thanks.

 

[Intermezzo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/27/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-flight-370.html

Missing Malaysian Jet’s Crew Was Probably Unresponsive, Officials Say

There is no consensus among investigators, even within the Australian government, on the hypoxia or unresponsive-crew theory.

Other officials, who insisted on anonymity because of the diplomatic sensitivity of the issue with Malaysia and China — most of the flight’s passengers were Chinese — said some investigators still leaned toward the possibility that one of the pilots deliberately flew the plane to the southern Indian Ocean in a suicide mission that also killed everyone else on the plane.

 

[Rhyolite]

I happen to think both fire reports appear to be shared with integrity. However,
after some analysis, I have to discount the oil rig sighting as being unconnected to
MH370, because of the fact that the sighting occurred in Vietnam airspace ... & the
Vietnamese air traffic controllers are adamant that their air space has no record of:

1) a plane identifying itself as MH370
2) an unknown plane which did NOT identify itself at all
(as witnessed by the Thailand military radar does about an hour later)



Since you are new to this thread, I will briefly mention once again that much like a long
distance telephone call, physical evidence exists on 4 separate computers to verify the fact
that a plane identified itself as MH370 for 6 hours in the early morning of 8 March 2014.

2 of the computers are currently unreachable:
1) the satellite computer
2) the satellite receiver on the plane.

The 2 computers on Earth that have been independantly verified are:
1) the Inmarsat computer (raw data released publicly)
2) the Australiean gound station computer.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/27/w...sat-right-quest-analysis/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

1) The incident occurred during the hand-off to Viet Nam ATC. The flight crew apparently did not/could not switch to the appropriate ATC frequency to announce their presence, subsequently, the were not assigned a unique transponder code for VN ATC. Whether there is contiguous primary radar at that point in flight, I don't know.

2) I have no doubt Inmarsat has identified 6 or 7 hours of pings related to the aircraft, but I question whether 1) the doppler shift was in fact doppler shift and not oscillator drift due to elevated temperatures due to a fire, 2) the doppler shift is indicative of an aircraft actually in flight, or descending rapidly, or resting on the surface of the ocean or land, Finally 3) what is really the confidence of the Inmarsat engineers (the guys with the calculators, not the "Suits"? Look at the 275 Hz shift that is labeled "Possible Turn?", The question mark indicates to me that the engineers are baffled as to what happened in that phase of flight.