Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

[SunnieRN]

I don't believe her going over a second floor balcony is just a coincidence.

Neither do I. Not at all a coincidence.

 

[jjenny]

But a face-first fall can produce brain injuries, and in extreme cases, spinal cord contusion. The doctor didn't think those two jived together, and I personally think he was right.

JMO

Only the doctor hasn't mentioned a word about spinal cord contusion.

 

[SunnieRN]

But a face-first fall can produce brain injuries, and in extreme cases, spinal cord contusion. The doctor didn't think those two jived together, and I personally think he was right.

JMO

Lets see. Let's break this statement down.

But a face-first fall can produce brain injuries, and in extreme cases, spinal cord contusion. So you are saying this, or saying that someone else states this fact?


The doctor didn't think those two jived together, and I personally think he was right. If your first statement is true, this makes no sense.

 

[elfie]

No, the velocity gained within which his head injury along with severe spinal cord injuries was from the great distance of the fall.. It has nothing to do with the velocity gained in theory of the scooter being part of the accident.. The scooter and it's velocity is irrelevant.. As is proven ny LE conclusion drawn and detailed in the demo.. It does not even take into account a scooter, period.. His injuries as consistent with a fall of such great magnitude along with the direction in which his body turned as it was falling.. That is what created the head injury of which you speak.. Nothing to do with a scooter, period.

Whatever velocity gained by the speed of scooter (if this is what happened) after an abrupt stop at the point off the first stair where the banister dips, Max's momentum would continue forward at that velocity, possibly forcefully enough against the handlebar to pivot on the scooter over the railing, launching both he and the scooter into the chandelier and then crash to the floor.

But, yes, the injuries sustained would have been from the landing(s), plural if he hit the opposite banister first .

 

[CDS22]

Only the doctor hasn't mentioned a word about spinal cord contusion.

He didn't mention the abrasions either. He merely said the visible injuries (and spinal cord contusions are visible via the diagnostic tests I linked to in the Mayo Clinic link) didn't match what was happening with Max. It's almost impossible to die from whiplash (link is on the first Max thread), yet Max did. Kids who fall from or off of stairwells or railings don't die of spinal cord contusions. That's the kind of injury you'd see in a car wreck if the car was speeding and the child had no seat belt on. That's what a medical friend said. Someone else here (Karen M, I believe) said a medical expert friend likened it to a train wreck. No bump on a carpeted floor could produce a spinal cord contusion. That's what the doctor was saying.

Again, a spinal cord contusion is a visible injury (see Mayo link).

IMO

 

[jjenny]

He didn't mention the abrasions either. He merely said the visible injuries (and spinal cord contusions are visible via the diagnostic tests I linked to in the Mayo Clinic link) didn't match what was happening with Max. It's almost impossible to die from whiplash (link is on the first Max thread), yet Max did. Kids who fall from or off of stairwells or railings don't die of spinal cord contusions. That's the kind of injury you'd see in a car wreck if the car was speeding and the child had no seat belt on. That's what a medical friend said. Someone else here (Karen M, I believe) said a medical expert friend likened it to a train wreck. No bump on a carpeted floor could produce a spinal cord contusion. That's what the doctor was saying.

Again, a spinal cord contusion is a visible injury (see Mayo link).

IMO

Not for a second do I believe the doctor was saying anything of the sort. Not even close.

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

I'm saying why then didn't she tell investigators she found him with the scooter between his legs.

OK, I see what you're asking. I really don't know why she wouldn't tell them that. As it is, she apparently did not even remember if she turned him over or not. IDK. What Dr. Fessel said makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[CDS22]

OK, I see what you're asking. I really don't know why she wouldn't tell them that. As it is, she apparently did not even remember if she turned him over or not. IDK. What Dr. Fessel said makes a lot of sense to me.

Except she told a different police officer (see SW, third thumbnail) that she DID turn him over.

 

[SunnieRN]

He didn't mention the abrasions either. He merely said the visible injuries (and spinal cord contusions are visible via the diagnostic tests I linked to in the Mayo Clinic link) didn't match what was happening with Max. It's almost impossible to die from whiplash (link is on the first Max thread), yet Max did. Kids who fall from or off of stairwells or railings don't die of spinal cord contusions. That's the kind of injury you'd see in a car wreck if the car was speeding and the child had no seat belt on. That's what a medical friend said. Someone else here (Karen M, I believe) said a medical expert friend likened it to a train wreck. No bump on a carpeted floor could produce a spinal cord contusion. That's what the doctor was saying.

Again, a spinal cord contusion is a visible injury (see Mayo link).

IMO

No disrespect, however I will take the word of an ME, who has actually seen the damage first hand, than from a 'medical friend' that said something to you, or even two friends, that did not take part in the medical autopsy.

Do you know that the spinal cord is internal? That it is surrounded by the spinal column. That a fracture does not mean that the spinal cord is out of the body (like someone said earlier today)?

Also, please link to where the doctor said the carpeted floor could not produce Max's injury.

 

[Betty P]

Here's a question that has been bothering me: If, as some claim, Rebecca killed Max, why would doctors and the ME go to such great lengths to cover up that fact and report a different cause of death?

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

If we're to believe that Max's COD has been changed, covered up or wrongly reported, how do we explain the motivation of those involved?

 

[CDS22]

Here's a question that has been bothering me: If, as some claim, Rebecca killed Max, why would doctors and the ME go to such great lengths to cover up that fact and report a different cause of death?

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

If we're to believe that Max's COD has been changed, covered up or wrongly reported, how do we explain the motivation of those involved?

I don't believe the ME covered up anything. I believe the ME's report is consistent with Dr. Brad Peterson's remarks in the SW. I've posted a link in this thread that showed homicidal suffocation is difficult to prove in an autopsy. I think that RZ's suicide (and I now believe it was a suicide) might have played a part in them not going any further. That's just my opinion.

 

[JBean]

when you guys start talking about each other you are out of bounds.
if you have recently had a post removed you either were discussing other members and their opinions rather than the case or you quoted someone that was doing that.

There is a lot of tit for tat and passive aggressive back and forth in here. It has got to stop. The mods are volunteer and it is not fair to make them work over time in this forum.

Thank you and this post lands at random.

 

[Carpe Pacem]

After all the opinions and/or facts presented in support of a smothering murder, I can still not see it happening that way.

I feel truly sorry for the children of the extended Shaknai family, and applaud their performing mitzvahs, i.e., the African trip. That is goodness.

I hope this case will be reopened.

The people who aren't at ease with the coroner's pronouncements, seem to have a very strong emotional investment. Reopening the case could give them a chance of attaining emotional peace in regard to their many concerns.

 

[MyBelle]

The AR contains a complete narrative by the pathologist, Dr. Lucas, including an examination of the skull, scalp, brain and a 27.5 cm section of the spinal cord.

Well, I know the ME collected the body but I thought we were not supposed to try to analyze or debate the actual examinations? That's why I just mentioned the part he noted was his general opinion. From my take on his narrative (I'm not an MD) he didn't find anything remarkable beyond what the ICU doctors had already determined. He seemed to concur with the ICU doctors and their radiologic analysis and commented in his narrative on the spinal cord contusion and no fractures. I just don't see either set of doctors as being wrong as others suggest.

JMO

 

[SunnieRN]

Here's a question that has been bothering me: If, as some claim, Rebecca killed Max, why would doctors and the ME go to such great lengths to cover up that fact and report a different cause of death?

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

If we're to believe that Max's COD has been changed, covered up or wrongly reported, how do we explain the motivation of those involved?

This is a brilliant post! Why would LE cover up a murder performed by Rebecca?

 

[MyBelle]

After all the opinions and/or facts presented in support of a smothering murder, I can still not see it happening that way.

I feel truly sorry for the children of the extended Shaknai family, and applaud their performing mitzvahs, i.e., the African trip. That is goodness.

I hope this case will be reopened.

The people who aren't at ease with the coroner's pronouncements, seem to have a very strong emotional investment. Reopening the case could give them a chance of attaining emotional peace in regard to their many concerns.

Technically, there are two cases with the same ME. I don't know that either case needs to be reopened by LE just to challenge the ME's findings. I read his opinions and came away with the belief that he is fair and respectful of challenges to his conclusions, especially if those challenges are made by experts in his field that may be hired for a second opinion.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Here's a question that has been bothering me: If, as some claim, Rebecca killed Max, why would doctors and the ME go to such great lengths to cover up that fact and report a different cause of death?

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

If we're to believe that Max's COD has been changed, covered up or wrongly reported, how do we explain the motivation of those involved?

I do not believe Max's death was in any way wrongly reported or covered up by investigators but the family might not share my opinion and that is how it should be.

I have never been of the opinion that doctors, the ME, all LE, or anybody else involved in the analysis and investigation have covered-up or been less than honest in either of the deaths but I'm also on the outside, looking in.

JMO

 

[Betty P]

This is a brilliant post! Why would LE cover up a murder performed by Rebecca?

IMO, I can't imagine the doctors or ME's doing that, particularly when it's a child's death that has already received scrutiny from social services. Nor do I see them making a mistake or doing careless work when there's so much at stake.

IMO

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

Let's say she killed him by accident, then tried to cover it up because she felt she would lose it all if found out. Then more and more people kept asking questions (the LE called her 5x's according to recent phone records that the Zahau family lawyer released), DS's twin sister wanted to ask her about MS's injuries, she wasn't allowed to visit the hospital, and she felt pressured and like her world was caving in. So with everything lost, what was she to do? In her mind, suicide.

JMO

So do you think she "accidentally" smothered him?

 

[sorrell skye]

The ICU Chief did four days of testing prior to contacting CPS and police. Of course they would know and had made an accurate diagnosis of injuries by the fourth day. I do not believe an invasive examination of the child's spinal column was made at the autopsy. No need to do so because of all the tests and his death was attended to by physicians. JMO

An examination of the spinal cord WAS performed at autopsy.

AR (page 14):

Also received is a 27.5 cm long specimen of spinal cord in its dural sheath.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...DctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWItODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

Additional postmortem spinal cord examination is described on page 15 of the AR. Not only was the cervical spinal cord examined, but the thoracic & lumbar spinal cord, as well.