That sounds very thorough to me! An autopsy is the only way to see some things. Like Alzheimers. It can only be truly diagnosed at autopsy.
Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2
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That sounds very thorough to me! An autopsy is the only way to see some things. Like Alzheimers. It can only be truly diagnosed at autopsy.
I think Rebecca loved Max a lot! You can see it in pictures, by the way she looks at him. I do not believe there is any way she would ever be able to hurt Max.
She took him with her to the gym, even though she didn't have to. I even wonder if the picture of Max, with his Mom, GS and ES is from him being at his Dad's home and Rebecca painting the figures on his tummy?
StJohn
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Conversely, we could ask the same question about LE's conclusion that RN's death was a suicide, not a murder. Why would LE cover up a murder and call it a suicide?
Rhyme & Reason
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Taking this line from BettyP's post...
Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.
greenpalm
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It's very clear to me. Dr. Peterson was faced with a bizarre set of symptoms, and rightfully wanted Max's injury investigated for foul play. Based on the diagnostic information he had at the time, Max might have been suffocated. The autopsy, performed after the search warrants were issued, was superior to any previous diagnostics, and supersedes any conclusions drawn based on the prior and inferior external exam. No doctors were wrong, or mistaken, but the ME was able to cut Max open and actually look, thereby rendering the suffocation theory irrelevant and outdated.
WE are seeing the search warrant AFTER the autopsy, but that's not the way it occurred. The Search warrant is not really new info, only new to us, it's newly released, but outdated and superseded by the better more accurate autopsy, which did not find evidence of asphyxiation.
As far as the forensic pathology article about homicidal suffocation being difficult to detect, it doesn't say that asphyxia is difficult to detect. It says it might be hard to determine said asphyxia as homicidal:
But Max's autopsy didn't reveal asphyxia at all.
Regarding how Max got his whiplash, he hit face first, possibly on the lower banister, as is illustrated in the SD model of the accident, (which admittedly has some problems) hitting his face caused his spinal contusion, and the bruises and abrasions on his face.
WE are seeing the search warrant AFTER the autopsy, but that's not the way it occurred. The Search warrant is not really new info, only new to us, it's newly released, but outdated and superseded by the better more accurate autopsy, which did not find evidence of asphyxiation.
As far as the forensic pathology article about homicidal suffocation being difficult to detect, it doesn't say that asphyxia is difficult to detect. It says it might be hard to determine said asphyxia as homicidal:
But Max's autopsy didn't reveal asphyxia at all.
Regarding how Max got his whiplash, he hit face first, possibly on the lower banister, as is illustrated in the SD model of the accident, (which admittedly has some problems) hitting his face caused his spinal contusion, and the bruises and abrasions on his face.
Paladine
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I admit, I've got some catching up to do...but a brief read of some comments brings to mind some thoughts.
I know about spinal cord injury. My late husband was quadriplegic; I spent years of my life reading and seeing first hand other cases as they entered and exited the ICU/Neuro Observation Unit/Rehab.
One question seems to be: did Max having trouble breathing/was he 'smothered'?
From personal experience: Depending on the level of the 'contusion', he may have had trouble breathing and he may have lacked breath before he died...it doesn't mean, in my mind, someone 'smothered' him. It may mean his injury was so high it interfered with his breathing capacity/nerves/diaphragm...I've seen it happen in an ICU. In a bed next to my husbands, the man never made it. Too high an injury and already in breathing distress before ambulance arrived...his wife told me.
Just a thought as I peruse your PLENTIFUL posts...
I know about spinal cord injury. My late husband was quadriplegic; I spent years of my life reading and seeing first hand other cases as they entered and exited the ICU/Neuro Observation Unit/Rehab.
One question seems to be: did Max having trouble breathing/was he 'smothered'?
From personal experience: Depending on the level of the 'contusion', he may have had trouble breathing and he may have lacked breath before he died...it doesn't mean, in my mind, someone 'smothered' him. It may mean his injury was so high it interfered with his breathing capacity/nerves/diaphragm...I've seen it happen in an ICU. In a bed next to my husbands, the man never made it. Too high an injury and already in breathing distress before ambulance arrived...his wife told me.
Just a thought as I peruse your PLENTIFUL posts...
thinkingstraight
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Thanks wasn't enough!!! :goodpost:
thinkingstraight
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How much money and power do you think he really has? If he had so much power, why didn't he just have Rebecca arrested right on the spot?
Since my old post was quoted (and misquoted) last night, I want to clarify something. The medical professional I consulted never said train wreck was the only possible way to result in an unplugged spinal cord from one's brain stem.
He mentioned several possibilities. One of them was falling. Several scenarios he mentioned: head first fall with great momentum; hanging on the neck after dropping a significant distance; hit by a train (and maybe a very bad car accident). He also said that even in the above three scenarios, most people still didn't end up with unplugged spinal cords. He didn't believe a small woman like Rebecca was capable of inducing such a rare injury on MS by hands.
In terms of the suffocation theory, the AR did not show any support for that. I still believe it was logical for Dr. Patterson to have an initial suspicion of suffocation due to MS's cardiac arrest and swelling brain because there was no way for him to immediately know the extent of MS's spinal cord injury (i.e. the shredding of his spinal cord above C3), which would naturally cause cardiac arrest and swelling brain. On the other hand, suffocation is a much more common cause for the observed cardiac arrest and swelling brain. But whatever Dr Patterson thought really does not matter. Cause of death is not his expertise. The forensic pathologist has the final say. And there was no evidence in the autopsy to support a suffocation theory. The AR killed the suffocation theory, period.
I also learned more information about suffocation versus spinal cord injury after further consulting with the same medical professional. You can read if you don't think it is too boring.
Suffocation and a shredded spinal cord above C3 (the latter was confirmed in Max's autopsy) can both cause cardiac arrest and brain swelling. But they are discernable upon autopsy. Suffocation takes some time for cardiac arrest to happen (no one loses heart beat immediately upon being suffocated), while a shredded spinal cord above C3 will cause an instant cardiac arrest.
As a result of the above mentioned difference, suffocation victim's heart will keep pumping blood and the blood pressure does not drop instantly. That's why "If suffocation or smothering has taken place then the eyes of the deceased will be bloodshot; this is a common way of accurately determining that one of these methods has been employed." (http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html)
A shredded spinal cord above C3 (this was what Max had and was confirmed by the physical examination of Max's spinal cord in the hands of the forensic pathologist) will cause an instant cardiac arrest. As a result, the victim almost loses blood pressure immediately. There will NOT be any blood shot (petachiae) in the victim's eyes during autopsy examination. On Page 8 of Max's autopsy report, it says "the eyes have brown irides, glistening corneae, and conjunctivae without hemorrhage, petechae, or yellow discoloration". The lack of conjunctivae hemorrhage, petechae (in layperson's words, blood shot) indicates Max was not suffocated or smothered. That's why the forensic pathologist's final conclusion was "anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy due to resuscitated cardiopulmonary arrest due to cervical spinal cord contusion due to blunt force trauma of head and neck".
Now let’s compare this to RZ’s AR. RZ died of hanging (essentially the same mechanism as suffocation). Her AR says “There are many petechiae on the upper and lower palpebral conjunctivae, bilaterally. They are dense on the left upper palpebral conjunctiva, and there are larger petachiae on the right lower palpebral conjunctiva.” This is a death consistent with strangulation/suffocation and the AR certainly shows so.
In my opinion, the initial suffocation theory did not prove Rebecca or someone else suffocated Max because the AR proved it to be false. However, it does make RZ’s death more suspicious because we now know at least at one time, those who were close to Max thought Max’s death involved foul play. This does not prove anyone did anything upon this suspicion. But it does increase the likelihood of a motive.
Max's AR: https://doc-10-14-docsviewer.google...cPOdNw6&hash=aghdpvm3knulrlepa9ouso57cqs08c3n
He mentioned several possibilities. One of them was falling. Several scenarios he mentioned: head first fall with great momentum; hanging on the neck after dropping a significant distance; hit by a train (and maybe a very bad car accident). He also said that even in the above three scenarios, most people still didn't end up with unplugged spinal cords. He didn't believe a small woman like Rebecca was capable of inducing such a rare injury on MS by hands.
In terms of the suffocation theory, the AR did not show any support for that. I still believe it was logical for Dr. Patterson to have an initial suspicion of suffocation due to MS's cardiac arrest and swelling brain because there was no way for him to immediately know the extent of MS's spinal cord injury (i.e. the shredding of his spinal cord above C3), which would naturally cause cardiac arrest and swelling brain. On the other hand, suffocation is a much more common cause for the observed cardiac arrest and swelling brain. But whatever Dr Patterson thought really does not matter. Cause of death is not his expertise. The forensic pathologist has the final say. And there was no evidence in the autopsy to support a suffocation theory. The AR killed the suffocation theory, period.
I also learned more information about suffocation versus spinal cord injury after further consulting with the same medical professional. You can read if you don't think it is too boring.
Suffocation and a shredded spinal cord above C3 (the latter was confirmed in Max's autopsy) can both cause cardiac arrest and brain swelling. But they are discernable upon autopsy. Suffocation takes some time for cardiac arrest to happen (no one loses heart beat immediately upon being suffocated), while a shredded spinal cord above C3 will cause an instant cardiac arrest.
As a result of the above mentioned difference, suffocation victim's heart will keep pumping blood and the blood pressure does not drop instantly. That's why "If suffocation or smothering has taken place then the eyes of the deceased will be bloodshot; this is a common way of accurately determining that one of these methods has been employed." (http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html)
A shredded spinal cord above C3 (this was what Max had and was confirmed by the physical examination of Max's spinal cord in the hands of the forensic pathologist) will cause an instant cardiac arrest. As a result, the victim almost loses blood pressure immediately. There will NOT be any blood shot (petachiae) in the victim's eyes during autopsy examination. On Page 8 of Max's autopsy report, it says "the eyes have brown irides, glistening corneae, and conjunctivae without hemorrhage, petechae, or yellow discoloration". The lack of conjunctivae hemorrhage, petechae (in layperson's words, blood shot) indicates Max was not suffocated or smothered. That's why the forensic pathologist's final conclusion was "anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy due to resuscitated cardiopulmonary arrest due to cervical spinal cord contusion due to blunt force trauma of head and neck".
Now let’s compare this to RZ’s AR. RZ died of hanging (essentially the same mechanism as suffocation). Her AR says “There are many petechiae on the upper and lower palpebral conjunctivae, bilaterally. They are dense on the left upper palpebral conjunctiva, and there are larger petachiae on the right lower palpebral conjunctiva.” This is a death consistent with strangulation/suffocation and the AR certainly shows so.
In my opinion, the initial suffocation theory did not prove Rebecca or someone else suffocated Max because the AR proved it to be false. However, it does make RZ’s death more suspicious because we now know at least at one time, those who were close to Max thought Max’s death involved foul play. This does not prove anyone did anything upon this suspicion. But it does increase the likelihood of a motive.
Max's AR: https://doc-10-14-docsviewer.google...cPOdNw6&hash=aghdpvm3knulrlepa9ouso57cqs08c3n
greenpalm
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Thank you very much KarenM. It appears that you and I are on precisely the same page. Understanding that, at one point in time, Dr. Peterson suspected that Max was suffocated, it is easy to make the logical leap that Rebecca could have been assumed to be guilty of harming Max. She then faced retaliation for what someone believed she had done. In other words, she may have been murdered because it was believed that she had harmed Max even though it's now clear from the autopsy that he did NOT suffocate.
And, what seems apparent to me is that Rebecca did not know that others were claiming Max died or suffocation and/or that this was seen as a deliberate act. I don't think she knew at all a bout Dina contacting Child Services and the intent of that? Certainly, I'd think Jonah knew?
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...DctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWItODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en
Max's autopsy clearly says CPR was reportedly started by Max's father's girlfriend, RZ.
The autopsy also says a "spinal cord injury of this level can cause cardiorespiratory arrest (cessation of heart activity and/or breathing) which explains the decedent's loss of blood flow and oxygen on the day he fell."
It also says "The time between this event and when his pulse was regained 25-30 minutes later resulted in irreversible damage to his brain, which ultimately led to his death five days later."
This wording is ambiguous and can be interpreted a couple of different ways. Posters are allowed to interpret it as they understand it. That is not a TOS violation.
Cause of death is certified as anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy due to resuscitated cardiopulmonary arrest due to cervical spinal cord contusion due to blunt force trauma of head and neck and the manner as accident.
The autopsy says nothing about "strangulation."
What this means is that accusations that RZ did NOT perform CPR are off the table unless a link can be provided that calls it into question. It also means that further accusations of strangulation are off the table unless a link can be provided to back up the speculation.
If you have questions about this information and direction, send me or any member of the mod team a pm and we will address it.
Thanks,
Salem
Max's autopsy clearly says CPR was reportedly started by Max's father's girlfriend, RZ.
The autopsy also says a "spinal cord injury of this level can cause cardiorespiratory arrest (cessation of heart activity and/or breathing) which explains the decedent's loss of blood flow and oxygen on the day he fell."
It also says "The time between this event and when his pulse was regained 25-30 minutes later resulted in irreversible damage to his brain, which ultimately led to his death five days later."
This wording is ambiguous and can be interpreted a couple of different ways. Posters are allowed to interpret it as they understand it. That is not a TOS violation.
Cause of death is certified as anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy due to resuscitated cardiopulmonary arrest due to cervical spinal cord contusion due to blunt force trauma of head and neck and the manner as accident.
The autopsy says nothing about "strangulation."
What this means is that accusations that RZ did NOT perform CPR are off the table unless a link can be provided that calls it into question. It also means that further accusations of strangulation are off the table unless a link can be provided to back up the speculation.
If you have questions about this information and direction, send me or any member of the mod team a pm and we will address it.
Thanks,
Salem
I don't think anyone here is disputing the AR findings that MS ultimately died from lack of oxygen, or that he had a spinal cord contusion. I think what some of us are debating (and are in agreement with Dr. Brad Peterson about) is that MS might have been unconscious prior to his fall.
The fall alone wouldn't have rendered him unconscious til he hit the ground, since hitting the ground is what apparently caused the contusion. (AR for reference)
The only way I can see MS having the velocity to hit the ground with the force that he did, and the only way I can see him not having the ability to break his fall with his hands, is if he was unconscious prior to hitting the ground.
JMO
The fall alone wouldn't have rendered him unconscious til he hit the ground, since hitting the ground is what apparently caused the contusion. (AR for reference)
The only way I can see MS having the velocity to hit the ground with the force that he did, and the only way I can see him not having the ability to break his fall with his hands, is if he was unconscious prior to hitting the ground.
JMO
Here's a link to the search warrant in which the original responding officer says that CPR was underway:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7148275&postcount=54"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA Rebecca Zahau Naplepa Suicide or Murder? Media links&Timelines ONLY-NO DISCUSSION[/ame]
Upon my arrival CPR was in progress on Maxfield Shacknai...
It's the third search warrant, page 3, line 15-16.
(Sorry if this has already been posted and linked).
lauriej
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..do we know that DS contacted child services? or when DS and JS were aware of dr.patterson's suffocation possibility?
I don't think it was DS who contacted child protective services. Search warrant says Hospital was going to notify child protective services. That doesn't answer the question of when DS and JS were aware of doctors suffocation theory.
greenpalm
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Dr. Peterson would likely not agree with himself at this point. The autopsy superseded his prior speculation. For all we know Dr. Peterson was present at the autopsy. Whatever he said on the day the search warrant was issued is irrelevant to what is known after the autopsy.
I'm sorry you can't visualize the injuries due to the fall of a conscious child. It's not a struggle for me at all. Conscious children fall all the time, fortunately they are usually not mortally wounded.
thinkingstraight
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I didn't assume that meant RZ . I thought it might be that the paramedics were underway in CPR.
RZ reportedly started it. And I believe it was her reporting. She was found screaming over max by first responder wasn't she?
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