MI MI - JOHN NORMAN COLLINS Co-Ed Murders 1967-69, Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti

[Richard]

Your story about Gacy in the coffin proves my point. Jumping in a coffin with a body is not being a serial killer. He was too young at that time and didn’t actually kill until a decade and a half later.

If Gacy climbed into that coffin with the dead boy at age 20, one has to wonder what other strange things he was doing at that early age.

Gacy was convicted of the sodomy of a teenage boy in 1968, at which time he was 26. He was sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment, but served 18 months and was released on parole 18 June 1970. Before a year had passed, he sexually assaulted at least two boys. He murdered his first known victim in 1972, and went on to murder at least 32 other victims before his arrest on December 21, 1978 (at age 36).

However, what Gacy did had no bearing on what Collins did or may have done in 1969. There may be similarities with Gacy (and with Bundy or Dahmer), but each individual went their own way and in their own time.

 

[Winward1]

Gacy was also a story teller and pathological lair. Why would anyone trust what he said?

Chicago produced H. H. Holmes, Leopold and Loeb, Ralph Raymond Andrews, John Wayne Gacy and William Thoresen.

But little John Collins, 21, of little Ypsilanti, with one conviction is a "serial killer."

 

[Richard]

Gacy was also a story teller and pathological lair. Why would anyone trust what he said?

Chicago produced H. H. Holmes, Leopold and Loeb, Ralph Raymond Andrews, John Wayne Gacy and William Thoresen.

But little John Collins, 21, of little Ypsilanti, with one conviction is a "serial killer."

You left out Al Capone. Agreed that Chicago was and is a pretty lawless place in many ways. It is currently the murder capital of the nation.

Serial lying seems to be common among almost all killers. Pick any one of them and ask him what time it is. You will want to check your watch immediately just to be sure.

 

[Richard]

Virginia Lynn "Ginny" Smith, age 13, murdered 23 June 1969, Claremont, CA

This young girl was murdered near Los Angeles while John Norman Collins and Andrew Manuel were in California with their stolen camping trailer. At one time, California investigators felt that it was possibly connected to the murder of Roxie Ann Phillips and that of another Unidentified girl.

Many details of Ginny's murder were similar to those of the other California murders and to the murders in Michigan.

The case remained officially unsolved until 1971, when Leon William Short (age 25) was arrested in Ocala, Florida on an unrelated charge. Short "confessed" to murdering Virginia Lynn Smith, a confession he soon repudiated, saying he had done so to receive mental health services. He was extradited to California, and after three trials, was convicted of her murder and sentenced to life in prison, still claiming to be innocent.

April 8, 1971, Ocala Star Banner - Ocala, Florida:

LINKS:

Virginia Lynn 'Ginny' Smith (Deceased), Claremont, CA California

Michigan Suspect Linked to Salinas Case - SFC 8/6/69

 

[itsrak]

...Mixer's clothing was left not unlike that of Shirley Robison, who was also shot dead in Michigan 7 months before Mixer and handwriting evidence indicates she murdered by Thoresen, who there's a ton of evidence was Zodiac. ...

Has the Zodiac killer been identified?
Zodiac Killer Identified as Gary Francis Poste, Investigators Say

 

[Skigirl]

Another reason to doubt that Collins was behind any of these crimes is that prolific killers almost exclusively are products of larger metro areas.

Gacy, Chicago.
Bundy, Tacoma.
Dahmer, Milwaukee.

Then there's Collins of...Ypsilanti? This is another major aspect of him that does not fit.

And then there's Manson of...McMechen, West Virginia?

 

[Skigirl]

I think everyone here who has researched serial killers knows there are similarities in their backgrounds. The word misfit comes to mind.

In other words, they're not like Collins, who was president of the Spanish club, lettered in numerous sports in high school and was popular with the ladies in college. The guy was doing everything that counselors advise a young man should do. In other words, his background was the antithesis of a future serial killer.

You put this together with it seeming like the case against him was manufactured, with evidence from a cop's basement and a star witness who lied. Other cops who were harassing a defense witness (who clearly were not trying to solve a motorcycle parts fencing racket. Because we all have heard of all the people who're fencing motorcycle parts. There's such a huge market for motorcycle parts in Michigan.)

How do could Collins' background be so different? And if he did kill all these ladies, how did he escape prosecution for all but one of them?

Where are you getting this stuff? Ted Bundy was quite charming and a success with the ladies.

 

[Rush4087]

Maybe it's a co-incidence that the vehicle driven by the suspect who was trying to get Fleszar into his car sounds like the car a guy who could not have sounded more like Thoresen (by no less than three witnesses) was seen in at Lake Berryessa minutes before the attacks there.
Maybe it's a coincidence Thoresen owned a Honda-350.
Maybe it's a coincidence Thoresen and Collins were the same height.
Maybe it's a coincidence Thoresen and Collins had similar hair color.
Maybe it's a coincidence Thoresen and Collins wore their hair the same length.
Maybe it's a coincidence Thoresen and Collins wore their hair parted on the left
Maybe it's a coincidence Thoresen was a suspect in numerous brutal murders in the Midwest prior to these killings.
Maybe it's a coincidence Thoresen was violent and nomadic as can be.
Maybe it's a coincidence Thoresen's vehicles had out-of-state plates, which would explain authorities inability to find a suspect via vehicle records searches.
Maybe it's a coincidence that, for all this evidence you claim there was against Collins, he was barely convicted of but one of these murders.
Maybe it's a coincidence that prosecutors failed to find a motive for Collins to have murdered anyone.
Maybe it's a coincidence that Collins had a solid alibi for the night the guy police said the murderer ran from them.
Maybe it's a coincidence that most of these crimes remain unsolved (and Thoresen has been dead since 1970.)
Maybe it's a coincidence that, all these years later, with all that's known about serial killers, Collins seems an unlikely killer.
Maybe it's a coincidence that the prosecution's star witness in this case changed her story numerous times and was proven to be a liar during the trial.
Maybe it's a coincidence that the "evidence" to convict came from a cop's basement and cops were harassing a witness to lie in court.
Maybe it's a coincidence that Collins seems to have been too smart, had he been a killer, to parade a victim around town on his motorcycle at that time when police were looking for the killer on every block.

Any of these things individually could be coincidence. No doubt about it.

Collectively, they are proof that Thorsen not only was in Michigan, but he committed these crimes.

None of those things prove Thorsen “committed these crimes”, much less confirm that he’d even been in the state of Michigan at the time they were committed..

It seems that you are trying to prove that your suspect (Thorsen) committed the KSB murder and Co-Ed murders by simply trying to prove that another suspect (JNC) did not. It is flawed logic to suggest that “because JNC didn’t kill KSB, it therefore must have been Thorsen.” How does that inference get made?

Even if the following all turned out to be true: that Thorsen and JNC looked alike, that Thorsen’s vehicles sometimes had out of state plates, that JNC had no motive, that JNC had an alibi (for running man in the dark), that other similar crimes remain unsolved, that JNC is an “unlikely” serial killer (or that he doesn’t have the “resume’”), that LE conspired in some overzealous prosecution to frame JNC… EVEN if you could prove all of that AND that Thorsen was evil incarnate, had murdered or tried to murder members his family, that Thoresen was the Zodiac, and that Thoresen had murdered 1000 other people - it still wouldn’t prove that Thorsen had anything at all to do with KSB’s murder or the other Mich Co-Ed murders

The burden of proof (proof that Thorsen DID do it - not proof that JNC DIDN’T do it) remains yours. Leave JNC out of it (pretend it’s an unsolved cold case) and PROVE (without using JNC as a strawman), beyond a reasonable doubt, that Thorsen did it.

All jmo

 

[Richard]

The Michigan Co-ed Murder Victims

Here are photos and information on the women whose murders were believed to be connected in 1967 to 1969. They were, at the time referred to as the "Co-ed" murders, but after a book about them titled "The Michigan Murders", they also became known by that name.

Note that one California murder is also included in this listing - that of Roxie Ann Phillips - due to evidence that connected her to John Norman Collins, 22, an Eastern Michigan University student who was convicted of the murder of Karen Sue Beineman. The rest remain officially unsolved.

Because of a Websleuths limit of only five photos per post, I will separate this into two separate posts.

The use of a knife in the Michigan Coed murders is something that was a common factor in several of the killings. Here are the generally connected murders:

Mary Terese Fleszar, 19, of Willis
Body found on Aug. 7, 1967: The Eastern Michigan University accounting student took a walk on July 9, 1967, near the EMU campus. A month later, her body was found near Geddes and LeForge roads. She had been stabbed over 30 times and her feet, and arm and fingers were cut off. Her clothes, left piled up nearby were torn and cut with a knife.

Joan Elspeth Schell, 20, of Plymouth
Body found on July 5, 1968: She was last seen hitchhiking near the EMU student union on June 30, 1968. Days later, her body was found just outside Ann Arbor. Her throat had been stabbed and slashed, and her blue miniskirt was twisted around her neck. The knife was believed to have a blade that was 4 inches long and 1 inch wide.



Jane Louise Mixer, 23, of Muskegon
Body found on March 21, 1969: The University of Michigan law student was last seen on March 20, 1969, trying to get a ride home to Muskegon. The next day, her body was found in a Denton cemetery. She had been shot in the head with a .22 long rifle bullet fired from a revolver. No evidence of a knife being used. In 2004, DNA evidence linked her to Gary Leiterman. He was convicted of murder.

Maralynn Skelton, 16, of Romulus
Body found on March 25, 1969: She had been seen hitchhiking near Arborland Shopping Center in Ann Arbor on March 24, 1969. The next day, her body was found near Glazier Way and Earhart. She had been severely beaten with a belt and with a tree branch.

Dawn Louise Basom, 13, of Ypsilanti
Body found on April 16, 1969: She was the youngest victim. Dawn was last seen on April 15, 1969 near EMU. The middle-school student's body was found near Gale and Vreeland roads. She was strangled with electrical wire, and her body slashed with a knife. Some of her clothing was later found in a nearby abandoned farmhouse. Buttons had been forcibly ripped from her shirt.

 

[Richard]

Alice Elizabeth Kalom, 21, of Portage
Body found on June 9, 1969: She was last seen dancing at a party in Ann Arbor on June 7, 1969. Two days later, her body was found near North Territorial Road and U.S. 23. She was shot in the head and stabbed in the heart. Her clothes had been ripped off and scattered. Some clothing items bore evidence of having been cut with a knife.



Roxie Ann Phillips, 17, from Milwaukie, Oregon

Roxie was visiting a family friend in Salinas California. On June 30, 1969, John Collins met Roxie Phillips and drove her to the home where she was staying. He even went into the house with her and met another resident of the house. Roxie's body was found in a ravine near Carmel on 13 July 1969. Some of her personal items were found in various places along the route 68 roadside.

Roxie Ann Phillips was last seen wearing a short red pants dress with small white floral design, matching fabric belt, full sleeves with white cuffs, white collar, white sandals, and carrying a large straw tote bag. When her body was found, she was wearing only the white sandals, and had a portion of her cloth belt wrapped around her neck. A piece of that same cloth was found in Collins' car when he was back in Michigan.

Karen Sue Beineman, 18, of Grand Rapids
Body found on July 26, 1969: She was last seen in Ypsilanti on July 23, 1969. Her naked body was later found in a ravine off Riverside Drive. She was strangled, and her face was beaten so badly it was unrecognizable. Her underpants had been cut with a sharp object.

 

[Richard]

[URL='https://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrJ4NZvLWhheGsA7sBjCWVH;_ylu=c2VjA3NyBHNsawNpbWcEb2lkAzg1MDdlMDMzYzZlOTdiMTJlN2FlZmE5YTZlNzc0ZmY0BGdwb3MDMzMEaXQDYmluZw--/RV=2/RE=1634246127/RO=11/RU=http%3a%2f%2fi.ebayimg.com%2fimages%2fg%2flZkAAOSwnLdWtMAa%2fs-l300.jpg/RK=0/RS=eGvUYDofb5Jh46fpxBdvbKPGGYI-'][/URL]
Hunting knives with 4 inch blades along with their leather sheaths.

John Norman Collins had a knife similar to these, which he carefully cleaned of any blood and fingerprints before giving to Arnold Davis to hold for him. Davis claimed that he did not touch it, but allowed Collins to put it in his (Davis') dresser drawer. Police investigators obtained it during a search of Collins' apartment, when Davis told them about it.

Collins was only tried for the murder of Karen Sue Beineman. Because it was never established that Karen was stabbed with a knife (she was strangled and bludgeoned with a blunt object), the knife was not entered into evidence at a trial.

DNA evidence was unknown at the time (1969), although blood type evidence was known and often entered into evidence. Even though Collins' knife had been cleaned, it might still be possible to obtain DNA evidence from the inside of its sheath.

 

[Winward1]

Even if the following all turned out to be true: that Thorsen and JNC looked alike, that Thorsen’s vehicles sometimes had out of state plates, that JNC had no motive, that JNC had an alibi (for running man in the dark), that other similar crimes remain unsolved, that JNC is an “unlikely” serial killer (or that he doesn’t have the “resume’”), that LE conspired in some overzealous prosecution to frame JNC… EVEN if you could prove all of that AND that Thorsen was evil incarnate, had murdered or tried to murder members his family, that Thoresen was the Zodiac, and that Thoresen had murdered 1000 other people - it still wouldn’t prove that Thorsen had anything at all to do with KSB’s murder or the other Mich Co-Ed murders

The burden of proof (proof that Thorsen DID do it - not proof that JNC DIDN’T do it) remains yours. Leave JNC out of it (pretend it’s an unsolved cold case) and PROVE (without using JNC as a strawman), beyond a reasonable doubt, that Thorsen did it.

All jmo

Your bias is showing in your writing. "Even if the following turned out to be true." You're questioning whether someone who didn't know these guys wouldn't think their basic descriptions were strikingly similar when they were...height, hair color, hair styles, build. Not only that, I've supplied the photos that prove they would have looked similar to people who didn't know either man.

You also ignore witness descriptions of a car seen driven by the suspect at the last sighting of the first Michigan victim and those of three witnesses at Lake Berryessa, a crime with to indicate that Thoresen was responsible.

You also ignore news reports from the Beineman case that report that the suspect was seen on a Honda like Thoresen owned, which along with the car explains why this massive search turned up squat regrinding ANY Michigan suspect who owned such vehicles.

Otherwise, what do you know about Thoresen? Three books contain a lot of information on them. How many of them have you read?

Meanwhile, check out, "Pam" who based on what she's saying here had to have been about 70 when this interview with her was conducted. Does she look anywhere near 70? (Her interview starts at the 26:44 mark.) Why is there no last name for "Pam?" Because she's lying. She never knew John Collins. This is what propaganda looks like:

 

[Winward1]

When the point was made that most serial killers don't become serial killers until they're at least in the mid 20s. and Collins was just 21 when arrested, Richard responds by saying Gacy jumped into a coffin when a teenager. Such a response is a page out of the spook playbook. Respond to a good point by saying someone irrelevant as a distraction.

 

[Richard]

MDOC Number: 126833
SID Number: 0638739H
Name: JOHN NORMAN COLLINS
Racial Identification: White
Gender: Male
Hair: Brown
Eyes: Blue
Height: 6' 0"
Weight: 224 lbs.
Date of Birth: 06/17/1947 (74)
JOHN NORMAN COLLINS
Image Date: 9/11/2021

Current Status: Prisoner
Earliest Release Date: LIFE
Assigned Location: Ionia Correctional Facility
Maximum Discharge Date: LIFE
Security Level: V
ALIASES
WATERHEAD
JOHN CHAPMAN
MARKS, SCARS & TATTOOS
None
PRISON SENTENCES
ACTIVE
Sentence 1
Offense: Murder, First Degree
Minimum Sentence: LIFE
MCL#: 750.316
Maximum Sentence: LIFE
Court File#: CR2940
Date of Offense: 07/23/1969
County: Washtenaw
Date of Sentence: 08/28/1970
Conviction Type: Jury

LINK:

Offender Tracking Information System (OTIS) - Offender Profile

 

[Richard]

When the point was made that most serial killers don't become serial killers until they're at least in the mid 20s. and Collins was just 21 when arrested, Richard responds by saying Gacy jumped into a coffin when a teenager. Such a response is a page out of the spook playbook. Respond to a good point by saying someone irrelevant as a distraction.

Note in the above post that John Norman Collins was born on 17 June 1947, which would have made him 22 years old when he was arrested in the end of July 1969 not 21 as you have incorrectly stated many times even after being corrected.

Note also that Collins was convicted of one count of first degree murder, for which he was sentenced to life in prison - where he has been since 1969, even after legal appeals were filed, considered, and ruled upon. He is a convicted murderer.

What is irrelevant is making a general statement that most serial killers are this or that and that some how Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffrey Dahmer - or any other serial killer's crimes, proclivities, or "resumes" have anything whatsoever to do with Collins.

You quote me out of context. What I said about Gacy is absolutely true and was in response to you introducing him into the discussion. I guess in a sense I might have been irrelevant about an already irrelevant point. Maybe we have the same playbook.

On the subject of irrelevance - you mention a car seen by someone in Michigan in 1967 at the scene of the first Michigan Coed murder. Keep in mind that Collins was NOT charged with that murder. But if he had been, it would likely have been pointed out that he drove a two tone blue and gray DeSoto at the time - a car which might have fit the rough description of the vehicle seen following Mary Terese Fleszar, the night she was abducted.

Likewise, unless one is considering Collins as a possible Zodiac suspect, the description of any car in that case is irrelevant to his murder conviction.

Can you find anywhere in the trial transcript or the appeals where newspaper articles were introduced as evidence? They too, are irrelevant. It might come as a surprise to you, but newspaper reporters sometimes get the story wrong and sometimes just make it all up. What matters is the evidence and testimony presented at trial to the jury - after being carefully checked and ruled upon. Had the jury been shown any of the newspaper articles you mention, it would have been cause for a mistrial - not because the articles might have been true or false, but simply because it would have been legally improper and potentially prejudicial.

 

[Winward1]

Big whoop. How many notorious serial killers could be called serial killers at age 22? Most of them couldn't be called killers, period, at that age.

 

[Winward1]

A month before Alice Kalom was murdered, high schoolers Mike Morrison and Debbie Means were murdered in Illinois.

Abducted at night, they were taken to an industrial site, property owned by the Peabody Energy Company, a mine. Morrison was shot in the head with a .22. Both were murdered there.

The Morrison and Means case features numerous unusual and unique similarities to murders committed by the Zodiac Killer. Their killer mailed Morrison’s IDs back to Means’ mother as proof that he was responsible. He also phoned police and claimed responsibility for the murders. (Morrison and Means were slain between the first and second Zodiac attacks, a time many have suspected Zodiac was elsewhere, killing.)

In his mailing to Means’ mother the killer included a letter. Its verbiage and structure is uncannily similar to a letter mailed by the killer of Cheri Jo Bates, a student long suspected to have been murdered by Zodiac. (Bates’ killer trolled her college’s campus for his victim, not unlike Jane Mixer’s killer.)

There’s more on this in Zodiac Maniac, including handwriting evidence (the Means letter, an envelope believed to have been addressed by Bates’ killer and William Thoresen’s signature.) There are numerous unique similarities in the handwriting in all of these documents. (Thoresen also fits an eyewitnesses description of a suspect seen at the library where Bates was last seen.)

A month after Morrison and Means were slain, Alice Kalom was abducted at night, taken to an industrial site, in her case a gravel pit, and shot in the head as well as stabbed.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that these cases share these similarities considering they took place in neighboring states little more than a month apart, and random slayings were far more rare in the sixties than they became, starting around the mid 1970s.

Thoresen’s father owned Great Western Steel, an industrial business located on the south side of Chicago. Thoresen worked there and was a suspect in the brutal murder of Chicago teen Judith Mae Anderson, whose case remains unsolved.

Anderson’s remains were found in drums that contained residue of chemicals used in the production of steel—evidence that Thoresen murdered and dismembered her at an industrial site, his father’s business.

 

[Richard]

Here is John Norman Collins' "theory" regarding the death of Alice Kalom.

Alice Elizabeth Kalom, age 21, according to some accounts, was last seen dancing at a party in Ann Arbor on Saturday night, June 7, 1969. Two days later, on Monday, 9 June 1969, her body was found near North Territorial Road and U.S. 23. She was shot in the head and stabbed in the heart. Her clothes had been cut with a knife, ripped off and scattered. Her shoes were missing.

In 2013, evidence from the crime scenes and bodies of some of the "Coed" victims was tested for DNA. Results from two of those murders (Karen Sue Beineman and Alice Elizabeth Kalom) matched with Collins.

Prior to 2013, Collins had maintained his innocence. When confronted with the DNA results, he changed his story both to investigators in a prison interview and in two letters to his cousin, John Chapman of Canada.

Here is what he said (both verbally and in writing) in an effort to explain the DNA:

He met Alice Kalom at an Ann Arbor bar on Friday night (6 June) and made a date for Saturday morning to go for a motorcycle ride.

They met the next day at 11 or 11:30 a.m., in front of the University of Michigan Student Union, chatted and went to Burger King for a bite to eat. Next, they went to "a really PRETTY SPOT that was on the outskirts of campus," which "led to sex."

Kalom invited Collins to a party in Ann Arbor, which Collins claims he wasn't sure whether he would go.

Instead, Collins said, he lent to his room mate Arnold Davis, who was having car trouble, his car keys — and he went to Ann Arbor.

According to Collins' account, when Davis returned home, he told Collins he went to a party and had an accident in his car. He spilled a drink on the seat, reached for something to clean it up and grabbed a cloth wrapped around the .22 caliber pistol that "we had been shooting the day before."

But just then, a "cop car pulled through the driveway and he got nervous."

Davis wrapped the gun in a blanket and tossed them both into a garbage bin.

After Kalom's body was found, Collins writes, Davis "admitted to killing her."...

LINK:
MI - MI - JOHN NORMAN COLLINS Co-Ed Murders 1967-69, Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti

 

[Winward1]

That theory sounds like hearsay.

How about "Pam" in that "documentary" who appears may not have even been born, let alone was old enough to have known Collins prior to his arrest? And why is she, fifty years later, only identified as "Pam" when it's 50 years later? What could she possibly be afraid of?

Maybe because no one can verify who she is because if they did it would be clear that she is yet another liar connected to this case and that could be added to a long list of BS connected to Collins' conviction; a star witness who changed her story (from the bike Thoresen owned to the one Collins owned) and who could not explain why; a defense witness who was threatened with perjury if he would not commit perjury; a prosecution witness (some might say quack) who presented laughable "science" the likes which appears never to have be presented in a courtroom again; a suspect who returned to the Beineman crime scene and was called the murderer by police though it was proven NOT to be Collins; "evidence" in a convoluted prosecution story coming from a cop's basement (another thing that makes no sense. Collins was smart but decided to murder someone in the basement of his relative who he knew was a cop); and Collins being a "serial killer" though was most certainly too young, not from the kind of town serial killers tend to come from and lacked the background of killers (no violence, no priors, etc.)

Meanwhile, the similarities between the Zodiac murders (not to mention documentary evidence in the form of handwriting) confirmed and suspected and the Morrison-Means and Kalom murders is backed by evidence—handwriting in documents, circumstantial evidence (in the form of dates of the murders of Kalom and Morrison and Means, the similar yet unusual crime scenes—industrial properties owned by mining and gravel companies) and the murders taking place in nearby states. And that evidence implicates Thoresen.

Also, with all of this lying going on, and evidence to the contrary that implicates Thoresen, who would believe whatever the powers that be says about DNA? They could just be lying, too.

 

[Richard]

What some of the police investigators have to say about Collins and the murders...