MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[W8nC]

O/T, but funny....

In my company's weekly email newsletter....

Acronym of the Week
SOL - In Spanish it means "sun", in our industry it means "Statue of Limitations".

haha, oooopsie.

 

[mia g]

Just some insight in too todays prisons, MANY MANY inmates get released, and go directly out and commit another crime, because they "NEED TO GO HOME"..their home IS the prison. BECAUSE life in prison is better for many then life in the world.

Inmates do get psych care in prison. Many of those trained to give that care are good people who want to help the inmates, I personally know several. They get religous care, in the religion of THEIR choosing. Sometimes the food in prisons suck..sometimes it is great... In realiality it is kinda like life, you roll with what it given. They get an education, they get leisure activities, they get commisary(which is much cheaper then the stuff we haev to pay for).

From my experience with women inamtes, AB will have those that taunt and bully her, BUT there will also be some around to protect and care for her(menaing the inmates) Kinda like the real world. If we did a mental hospital vs a prison, there really is not much diffrence(accept maybe a little more freedom in prison). There is reahbilitation in prison IF the inmate accepts the help.

I still believe to some degree AB was wanting to follow in mom and dads foot steps, to "connect" with them to a degree. I have to wonder HOW would we (jq public OR specialist dealing with AB) ever KNOW she is reahbilitated?? She apparently (from the sounds of the testimony in the courtroom) has already fooled other professionals! If years of counseling havent helped up to this point, how many more years of it will it take??? I do not think for one minute she has an "immature mind". She is very intelligent. Has won academic awards, taken part and done well in "mature" extra curicular activities such as equestrian and fencing. She had a mature enough mind to sneak off to concerts and spend nights in the woods. Immature people are scared of the woods, and scared to go off far from parents/guardian= protection. Even now it would seem by the pictures we get from trial and mugshot,she does not care. She is cold and indiffrent, that does not mean immature(inmho) it means cold and indiffrent..she does not care!! How do you make someone care?? All the above is only my thoughts and opinion based on the facts we know, and my experience with criminals.

It all boils down to the world NEEDS protected from the likes of AB. WE deserve that! Elizabeth deserves JUSTICE, justice is not allowing AB to walk free when she fools another round of psych professionals. I am truly srry for whatever happened to make AB what she is, but she lost all my sympathy when she lured, strangled, a cut that baby girl Elizabeth!!! Life is hard and life sucks sometimes, but we humans do not get to do whatever we want, when we want to other people.

And (again MHO) illegal drug use IS NOT a defense, one chooses to do that.

ALL is MHO!!

 

[~greeneyedgirl~]

We can agree to disagree my profession is rehabilitation and I have seen it work, the other side is locking people up like animals and it never works, they always come out harder and colder than when they went in.

If our prisons were places of rehabilitation that would be one thing but they are not and not even remotely so. They are barbaric based on a dark ages mentality and an embarassment to any progressive and forward thinking society, which admittedly we are neither, sadly.

I am a firm believer in counselling, rehabilitation to me is something quite different , with that being said the first
BBM should never even be an option in cases such as this and the second BBM the crimes that these people have committed to get them into prison in the first place are exactly what you have portrayed the prisons to be, anyone who can commit such a horrific violent act at any age let alone a teenager is barbaric and an embarrassment to the the human race as a whole. This of course is only my personal opinion based on personal experience. Is each and every person different, yes they are but in these types of situations rules need to be enforced and upheld to the maximum allowed by law not only punish but to hopefully deter the next one who thinks they too can commit such an act.

On a side note, in the past month since I have been following this I have heard of at least 10 separate cases involving death by a teen, why is this so common? If I have to hear one more child say that they wanted to know what it felt like, I really think I'm going to lose it. I'm sorry if that is a bit much but come on each and every one of these teens had signs in hindsight, lets stop relying so much on hindsight for answers and start looking now with questions.

I don't believe Alyssa will ever be fit for society, will counselling help her, I highly doubt it. I just can't see her as being the one due to the vast amount of counselling she has had. It obliviously didn't work, and it may have even accelerated the process in her mind. I don't know, just my thoughts because this really does just blow my mind.

sorry it is so long:blushing:

 

[steph572]

I spent many years working in two different institutions in this area of MO. I agree with almost everything you said. The exception being:

Sometimes the food in prisons suck..sometimes it is great...

In all my time there (which covered every shift), I never had a single meal that was good, let alone great. :sick:

 

[Prof]

It is fairly obvious to me that the field of mental health in this country does not get the attention, respect, or money necessary to be as effective as it could be. IMO neither do children's services. = I have read over and over again assertions without any evidence that AB got all of the help she needed -- my question again how can one be so certain of the help she received?

I have said this before,that I have not heard one argument for AB's release --and if I am wrong, you can go ahead and send her to my house- (sheesh to that Ad Baculum )

I repeat: Nobody wants AB released
I think there is a need to both protect the community and help her

This is what we do KNOW about previous therapy: Pathways got involved in 2007 when AB tried to commit suicide -- the JO in the case stated that she "sometimes received daily intensive treatment at home"
If you look at the Pathways (hyperlinked here) you can see that Pathways does offer these services for 4 to 6 weeks - we do not know that AB got more than that -- we really do not know how long she was in therapy and if that therapy was still underway, as some of the accounts of the Grand Jury hearing vary and none give any specific time range, so IMO it is not wise to assume that she had the "best therapy," had "therapy for a few years:, or therapy for any real length of time -- IMO all of her public cries for attention did not evidence a child in intensive therapy

"Juvenile officer David Cook testified that Bustamante has received mental health services since September 2007 after she attempted suicide. She had a ten-day stay in the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center after the attempt, and has received mental health services from Pathways Community Behavioral Healthcare in Jefferson City since."

Let us not forget that the Judge stated his disappointment with the state of services for youths in MO: "Judge Beetem said he was "disappointed with the Division of Youth Services" because it lacks the 'adequate facilities, programs, or services that [Bustamante] needs to treat her past her 21st birthday.' (lacks adequate is pretty much failing in my language)

AND even the juvenile prosecutor in the hearing understood the need for treatment: "Green, the prosecutor, rested much of her case to try Bustamante as an adult rested on the lack of proper services in the juvenile system to treat Bustamante, which Judge Beetem upheld in his decision."

Also "Cook said Bustamante takes Prozac for depression and also received services for mood swings and self-harm. Cook said Bustamante has a history of cutting herself, but said that there were no indications she was homicidal."

KOMU article hyperlinked here

And in that same article above "Cook said her life at home was normal and structured. She did chores and earned an allowance, and had no abnormal confrontations with her siblings." Huh? It was not abnormal to encourage her 10 year old brothers to hurt themselves over and over again? Hmmn it was not abnormal to fake stab another child with a real knife and post the pic on the internet? IDK but according to experts one of the 3rd level immediate warning signs of a dangerous child is if he or she owns a weapon, or "Brought a weapon to a place or situation that is inappropriate." Hmmn what kind of supervision? What kind of therapy?

IDK

 

[Kimster]

To everyone who thinks that there is a possibility of rehabilitation... Please open your eyes to the possibility that Alyssa was a very smart girl in her planning, even diabolical. Please consider for a moment that her intellegence made her aware that if she were caught that her age would probably be to her benefit. She obviously was not a misinformed girl. I have a son who is sixteen and his opinion is that she is one scary individual ( that my friends is is an opinion of a peer) She knew better, she knowingly and intentionally did harm and with intent to kill another human being. How do you rehabilitate that? You don't. Something of this magnitude cannot be compared to shoplifting or even experimenting with drugs. The line was crossed from being reckless with your own life into the destruction of another with forthought. There should be no "do-over". You cannot rehabilitate a murderer, pedophile or rapist, it is how their mind works and is programmed to disregard the value of life, so the decision should be to protect society from one who cannot be "fixed"
I wonder to those who believe in rehabilitation, how in the world can you say that you believe in counseling someone like this? Really? At what point would you feel comfortable in releasing her back into society? The prison systems are far from barbaric, 3 meals a day, cable, higher education, medical and dental. This is hardly barbaric as homeless shelters have far less ameneties and are trying to do the right thing for law abiding citizens who have fallen on hard times.
IMHO as always - When the value of human life is questioned, you cannot make someone value it over the age of 3.

ITA and want to add one thing to this post...If AB had not been in therapy already for a long period of time, my opinion could be different. There was a trial of a boy who was abused by his father and killed his father on Court TV a few years back that I followed (can't recall the name) and I wanted him to be set free, for example.

 

[Jodibug]

This is what we do KNOW about previous therapy: Pathways got involved in 2007 when AB tried to commit suicide -- the JO in the case stated that she "sometimes received daily intensive treatment at home"
If you look at the Pathways (hyperlinked here) you can see that Pathways does offer these services for 4 to 6 weeks - we do not know that AB got more than that -- we really do not know how long she was in therapy and if that therapy was still underway, as some of the accounts of the Grand Jury hearing vary and none give any specific time range, so IMO it is not wise to assume that she had the "best therapy," had "therapy for a few years:, or therapy for any real length of time -- IMO all of her public cries for attention did not evidence a child in intensive therapy
I

In the 11/18 hearing it was testified to that a therapist came to her home, almost daily.

That is a fact.

W8nc was sitting beside me at the hearing. She heard it as well.

 

[gliving]

Prof, prozac must be prescribed by a medical doctor and/or a psychiatrist. If a MD prescribes prozac, they will almost always insist on an evaluation by a psychiatrist before doing so. AB must have had regular visits to a psychiatrist in addition to therapy.

A psychologist may suggest prozac treatment, but cannot prescribe the medication.

 

[emeraldeyes85]

Well everyone has their own opinion about these things and mine is that if we dont show people like AB some compassion and forgiveness then all we are really doing is confirming for her that the world view she had that led her down this path to begin with, that the world is a dark, cold and evil place, is reality and she will never have a chance to see or learn otherwise.

What she did was very wrong but nothing can bring EO back, all we can do now is try to reach AB and help her overcome whatever it is inside of her that made her do this and hopefully by helping her we will be helping the many others like her who may be already on that same path.

 

[bigflaw]

Well unfortunately if they try them as a juvenile they get out at 21 with NO record, no parole no nothing....free and clear

and they don't even have a juvenile facility that would be safe to keep her in...they have a "secure" boys facility for the worst offenders but for girls it seems missiouri only has dorm type/minimum security facilities that she might get out of...and she could also hurt the other girls in there

probably with a plea deal she might get 25 or 30 years

have you seen the case of Michael Hernandez who killed Jamie Gough in Florida?? Google them and see

very similar to this case

Michael and his lawyers turned down a plea deal...and he is now serving life plus 30 years

he killed cause he wanted to...had plans...detailed notes...he had a little "hit" list but ultimately killed his shy friend, a sweet boy who was small and shy....slit his throat and stabbed him 42 ? times in the restroom at school, came back and sat at his desk like nothing happened (he wore a windbreaker and gloves etc that he disposed of)

Not sure if this was discussed, but (BBM) this is not true. They are re-evaluated, not just released at 21.

Secondly, and again, I am sorry if this was covered, but was this discussed?

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2009/12/09/update-teen-girl-murder-suspect/

 

[Kimster]

Well everyone has their own opinion about these things and mine is that if we dont show people like AB some compassion and forgiveness then all we are really doing is confirming for her that the world view she had that led her down this path to begin with, that the world is a dark, cold and evil place, is reality and she will never have a chance to see or learn otherwise.

What she did was very wrong but nothing can bring EO back, all we can do now is try to reach AB and help her overcome whatever it is inside of her that made her do this and hopefully by helping her we will be helping the many others like her who may be already on that same path.

My belief is that she should receive compassion and if she asks for forgiveness in earnest, she should be forgiven. However, that doesn't mean she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions. There is a lot of confusion about being held accountable in today's society, which is why I think there are more crimes being committed. You CAN have compassion and you CAN forgive, but there is a thing called "Love and Logic" that isn't being used as much as it should be. MOO

 

[emeraldeyes85]

It is fairly obvious to me that the field of mental health in this country does not get the attention, respect, or money necessary to be as effective as it could be. IMO neither do children's services. = I have read over and over again assertions without any evidence that AB got all of the help she needed -- my question again how can one be so certain of the help she received?

I have said this before,that I have not heard one argument for AB's release --and if I am wrong, you can go ahead and send her to my house- (sheesh to that Ad Baculum )

I repeat: Nobody wants AB released
I think there is a need to both protect the community and help her

This is what we do KNOW about previous therapy: Pathways got involved in 2007 when AB tried to commit suicide -- the JO in the case stated that she "sometimes received daily intensive treatment at home"
If you look at the Pathways (hyperlinked here) you can see that Pathways does offer these services for 4 to 6 weeks - we do not know that AB got more than that -- we really do not know how long she was in therapy and if that therapy was still underway, as some of the accounts of the Grand Jury hearing vary and none give any specific time range, so IMO it is not wise to assume that she had the "best therapy," had "therapy for a few years:, or therapy for any real length of time -- IMO all of her public cries for attention did not evidence a child in intensive therapy

"Juvenile officer David Cook testified that Bustamante has received mental health services since September 2007 after she attempted suicide. She had a ten-day stay in the Mid-Missouri Mental Health Center after the attempt, and has received mental health services from Pathways Community Behavioral Healthcare in Jefferson City since."

Let us not forget that the Judge stated his disappointment with the state of services for youths in MO: "Judge Beetem said he was "disappointed with the Division of Youth Services" because it lacks the 'adequate facilities, programs, or services that [Bustamante] needs to treat her past her 21st birthday.' (lacks adequate is pretty much failing in my language)

AND even the juvenile prosecutor in the hearing understood the need for treatment: "Green, the prosecutor, rested much of her case to try Bustamante as an adult rested on the lack of proper services in the juvenile system to treat Bustamante, which Judge Beetem upheld in his decision."

Also "Cook said Bustamante takes Prozac for depression and also received services for mood swings and self-harm. Cook said Bustamante has a history of cutting herself, but said that there were no indications she was homicidal."

KOMU article hyperlinked here

And in that same article above "Cook said her life at home was normal and structured. She did chores and earned an allowance, and had no abnormal confrontations with her siblings." Huh? It was not abnormal to encourage her 10 year old brothers to hurt themselves over and over again? Hmmn it was not abnormal to fake stab another child with a real knife and post the pic on the internet? IDK but according to experts one of the 3rd level immediate warning signs of a dangerous child is if he or she owns a weapon, or "Brought a weapon to a place or situation that is inappropriate." Hmmn what kind of supervision? What kind of therapy?

IDK

TY for this wonderful post! Many people say rehabilitation doesnt work but how do we know when we havent even tried?

Lock her up and throw away the key only tells AB she was right all along, the world is a fecked up place. I would really like her to know different and it seems nobody took the time to really help her see that.

 

[emeraldeyes85]

My belief is that she should receive compassion and if she asks for forgiveness in earnest, she should be forgiven. However, that doesn't mean she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions. There is a lot of confusion about being held accountable in today's society, which is why I think there are more crimes being committed. You CAN have compassion and you CAN forgive, but there is a thing called "Love and Logic" that isn't being used as much as it should be. MOO

She absolutely does need to be held accountable and for a long time, but in a place where she can become a better person and not in a place where she will just rot away in a cell watched over by those who have no training in how to really help her.

 

[Jodibug]

You cannot reform someone who kills "just to see what it feels like".

Not possible.

 

[Kimster]

She absolutely does need to be held accountable and for a long time, but in a place where she can become a better person and not in a place where she will just rot away in a cell watched over by those who have no training in how to really help her.

I disagree. She has been counseled and it hasn't done her a bit of good. She needs behavior therapy. That is what I used to teach my Aspie son and it worked wonderfully. He is a very successful young man of 19 now. She needs to suffer the consequences of her actions. She doesn't need to be spat at, she just needs to serve her time. There are a lot of people who have turned a new leaf in prison and work to help their fellow inmates. She can do that too, if she wishes.

Another reason I believe in suffering the consequences is that it is a deterrent to others who are watching. There may be some other messed up kids out there watching to see what happens because they are leaning towards the "what does it feel like". What better way to give them prevention therapy than to see that they would also spend the rest of their lives in prison?

 

[raisincharlie]

Motion for Change of Venue:

http://www.colecountycourts.com/doc...filed by Public Defender with attachments.pdf

 

[bigflaw]

Another clarification... juvenile expungements are not automatic:

Section 211.321.3 RSMo.
122.04. Sealing of Court File and Destruction of Records

The court may, either upon its own motion or upon application by the juvenile or his representative, or upon application by the juvenile officer, enter an order to destroy all social histories, records and information, other than the official court file, and may enter an order to seal the official court file, except as otherwise provided by law as well as to seal all law enforcement officers' records at any time after the juvenile has reached his seventeenth birthday, if the court finds that it is in the best interest of the juvenile that such action or any part thereof be taken, unless the jurisdiction of the court is continued beyond the juvenile's seventeenth birthday, in which event such action or any part thereof may be taken by the court at any time after the closing of the juvenile's case.

 

[Bibliophile]

It is fairly obvious to me that the field of mental health in this country does not get the attention, respect, or money necessary to be as effective as it could be. IMO neither do children's services.

Agreed. I will be one of the first people at the head of this parade.

Yet I also believe Alyssa may have the type of problem that even the best mental health services can't fix. Medical science cannot yet treat personality disorders.

I have read over and over again assertions without any evidence that AB got all of the help she needed -- my question again how can one be so certain of the help she received?

It appears she had the best that was available. That may not be saying as much as we'd like but ---- She had grandparents who were willing to step up to the plate (many do not); she had adults that were invested in her care (many do not); she had in-hospital services, medication, group therapy, individual therapy and in-home intensive therapy. I understand you're asserting that it was not enough. I'm throwing out the possibility that no amount would have been enough.

If you look at the Pathways (hyperlinked here) you can see that Pathways does offer these services for 4 to 6 weeks - we do not know that AB got more than that --

And we don't know that she didn't. I'm pretty sure she received therapy, on one level or another, for much longer than 4 to 6 weeks. Her first inpatient treatment was over two years ago.

it is not wise to assume that she had the "best therapy," had "therapy for a few years:, or therapy for any real length of time -- IMO all of her public cries for attention did not evidence a child in intensive therapy

Or you could look at it another way -- I'd say there is no readily apparent evidence that the child responded to therapy.

Let us not forget that the Judge stated his disappointment with the state of services for youths in MO: "Judge Beetem said he was "disappointed with the Division of Youth Services" because it lacks the 'adequate facilities, programs, or services that [Bustamante] needs to treat her past her 21st birthday.'

The Division of Youth Services was never intended to treat anyone past their 21st birthday. Its "youth services." I think what Judge Beetem was saying was not so much they were inadequate, but that Alyssa's age and the nature of the crime made for a rare and heinous combination that made placement a problem.

And in that same article above "Cook said her life at home was normal and structured. She did chores and earned an allowance, and had no abnormal confrontations with her siblings." Huh? It was not abnormal to encourage her 10 year old brothers to hurt themselves over and over again? Hmmn it was not abnormal to fake stab another child with a real knife and post the pic on the internet?

I've found that its often easy, retrospectively, to assign behaviors as warning signs. Believe it or not, if the things you mention are warning signs, there are no doubt hundreds of thousands of kids we need to lock up immediately.

If you've spent any time at all in rural communities, you'd know most have stories to tell about when they were kids and an electric fence. Not only will kids try to get one another to touch them, boys will often trick other boys into urinating on them (as my cousins with my brother). Those with no knowledge that this is common place in a rural culture might proclaim its an early sign of sadism; but I can assure you that in the dozens upon dozens of kids I knew that did it, not one became a murderer. In fact, most of them are exceptional citizens.

Teens and the new cyber-culture I'm less familiar with - but I do know in the advent of digital photography and the internet that they do some wild and wacky stuff. Most of it is for the fantasy, shock-factor; outrageous and attention getting. I'd venture to guess we could find thousands of pics much like the one that Alyssa posted and not one of the kids committed murder.

 

[JLMcKenna83]

TY for this wonderful post! Many people say rehabilitation doesnt work but how do we know when we havent even tried?

Lock her up and throw away the key only tells AB she was right all along, the world is a fecked up place. I would really like her to know different and it seems nobody took the time to really help her see that.

AB never stated the world was effed up. She had friends and family (besides her parents) who cared for her and loved her.

The truth of the matter is that she is a very disturbed young lady. She has now killed just for sh*ts and giggles..

How do you fix that?
Intensive therapy... Check
Loving caring nurturing home... Check
Friends... Check
Having a few luxury's in life... Check

Yeah seems to me that people tried to take the time to help her and she still MURDERED HER 9 YO NEIGHBOR! Maybe while she's locked in her cell at night hearing the sounds of the prison she'll finally realized just how bad life really is for some people. And maybe.. just maybe.. she'll see the error in her ways.. however, I have seen nothing from her or any of her actions that shows remorse or compassion.. The truth is, she lured Elizabeth into the woods where Alyssa strangled, stabbed, and slit her friends throat. Then buried her out behind her house. And went merrily along her way.

This is for everyone.. Take some time and honestly think about this..
How would you feel if you were in this situation? If it was your child who had been so savagely murdered? Would you fight for rehabilitation? Or would you be wishing that the SC didn't have the death penalty limitation? Elizabeth isn't even my daughter and I know exactly how I would feel..

 

[bigflaw]

There is a great deal of assumption about the fact that AB was proud of herself or took joy in the killing. As far as I have seen there is NO evidence to support that.

This is very important because you change a potentially psychosis-driven act to something done for amusement.

Unless we know for a fact that she is fond of what she has done, can we not treat that as a fact?