MO - Elizabeth Olten, 9, St Martin's, 21 Oct 2009 #14

[Kimster]

There is a great deal of assumption about the fact that AB was proud of herself or took joy in the killing. As far as I have seen there is NO evidence to support that.

This is very important because you change a potentially psychosis-driven act to something done for amusement.

Unless we know for a fact that she is fond of what she has done, can we not treat that as a fact?

Bustamante has pleaded not guilty to Elizabeth's killing. But authorities say Bustamante confessed in a police interview to slaying Elizabeth because she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. They contend Bustamante strangled Elizabeth without provocation, stabbed her and cut her throat.<snipped>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091209/ap_on_re_us/us_missouri_girl_slain

 

[JLMcKenna83]

There is a great deal of assumption about the fact that AB was proud of herself or took joy in the killing. As far as I have seen there is NO evidence to support that.

This is very important because you change a potentially psychosis-driven act to something done for amusement.

Unless we know for a fact that she is fond of what she has done, can we not treat that as a fact?

I'm sorry.. I thought that putting "killing people" as a hobby and then writing about the crime was showing a sort of fondness....

 

[mia g]

AB will get the help she needs(IF she accepts it) wherever she ends up. I have had inmates say the workers at the prison showed them more how to live in the world then anything at home..they got respect and learned discipline. It boils down to IF an inmate wants to be reahbilitated, they will reguardless which system they end up in. If they refuse to be reahbilitated it wont matter where you send them. There ARE reahbilitation programs in prisons. There are more programs for the inmates, then we out here in the free world can get. Even the worst of the worst, those locked in ad seg(or solitary not sure how Mo refers to it) get visited by medical/psych personel, I know this for a fact as it was my job to go with them and take notes and make sure orders were followed through with. I took my job seriously, even when I KNEW the inmate was faking. I made sure Doctors order were filled, even when I KNEW the orders/medication was being abused. SOME people working in prisons are trained and do care about inmates. (btw when inmates abuse the system, drs order are still carried out until proper protocal and reporting and investigation are accomplished)

 

[bigflaw]

Bustamante has pleaded not guilty to Elizabeth's killing. But authorities say Bustamante confessed in a police interview to slaying Elizabeth because she wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. They contend Bustamante strangled Elizabeth without provocation, stabbed her and cut her throat.<snipped>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091209/ap_on_re_us/us_missouri_girl_slain

I'm sorry.. I thought that putting "killing people" as a hobby and then writing about the crime was showing a sort of fondness....

"because she wanted to know what it felt like" - How does this indicate that she enjoyed it or is proud of it?

"putting 'killing people' as a hobby" - This was written before the murder. So you can only assume how she felt after the fact.

I understand that these are interpretations and opinions, but since none of us has talked to AB since the murder, all we can do is assume. We do not know how she is feeling about it at this point in time.

 

[Kimster]

"because she wanted to know what it felt like" - How does this indicate that she enjoyed it or is proud of it?

"putting 'killing people' as a hobby" - This was written before the murder. So you can only assume how she felt after the fact.

I understand that these are interpretations and opinions, but since none of us has talked to AB since the murder, all we can do is assume. We do not know how she is feeling about it at this point in time.

Actually, I've been wondering how she felt about it after the fact as well. I still don't think it has any bearing on AB having consequences for her actions as dictated by the law.

 

[bigflaw]

Actually, I've been wondering how she felt about it after the fact as well. I still don't think it has any bearing on AB having consequences for her actions as dictated by the law.

It could, however, have a huge impact on what those consequences are. For example, prison or a mental health facility.

Expanding on my last post, I would liike to give examples for that as well. I could list as a hobby "drinking myself to a stupor", but that doesn't mean that I do it because I think it's fun or because I am proud of it. It could be because I am seriously depressed. And instead of saying "because I wanted to know what it felt like", she could have said, "because I thought it would be fun."

I just hate to see opinions misrepresented as facts because someone coming from outside this forum may see something that they interpret as a fact based on how it is written, and I just ask that everyone be clear about what is assumption/opinion and what is fact, especially things that may have significant influence on what happens moving forward in this case.

 

[Kimster]

It could, however, have a huge impact on what those consequences are. For example, prison or a mental health facility.

Expanding on my last post, I would liike to give examples for that as well. I could list as a hobby "drinking myself to a stupor", but that doesn't mean that I do it because I think it's fun or because I am proud of it. It could be because I am seriously depressed. And instead of saying "because I wanted to know what it felt like", she could have said, "because I thought it would be fun."

I just hate to see opinions misrepresented as facts because someone coming from outside this forum may see something that they interpret as a fact based on how it is written, and I just ask that everyone be clear about what is assumption/opinion and what is fact, especially things that may have significant influence on what happens moving forward in this case.

I appreciate what you are saying. The sad part is that we cannot search people's hearts and know what they are thinking or if they would commit a crime again. This is why we have the "law of the land" to follow. We have to protect citizens as a whole and send a message to deter others who might want "to see what its like" from hurting and killing others.

As far as knowing if she thought it was fun? I totally agree with you. I've not seen any evidence that indicates she was satisfied after the fact.

 

[W8nC]

In the 11/18 hearing it was testified to that a therapist came to her home, almost daily.

That is a fact.

W8nc was sitting beside me at the hearing. She heard it as well.

Yes, I heard it too. They didn't say "almost daily for a few weeks in 2007", and they didn't say "almost daily ever since 2007", so it's probably something in between, but the implication was that it was ongoing and recent.

There has been no evidence that she is tickled with herself for going through with the murder, and no evidence that she is ashamed or sorry for it either. We probably shouldn't make any assumptions about her feelings about what she did until we have evidence or a statement from her.

IMO, I don't think she can be rehabilitated to the point where I'd be comfortable letting her out into society. There's no telling if 30 more years of therapy at the level that is available from MOs penal system would do her any more good than the last 2 years worth have done, but I seriously doubt it. True, what's available isn't top-notch, but then again it's tax-payer funded so you get what you get. We don't give criminals the best of the best, nor should we. Regardless of her psychological issues, she did commit a very serious crime and must suffer the consequences, like anyone else would. If rehab works, she'll be able to contribute to society within the prison system, if she so chooses.

Bigflaw, it was my understanding, from what I heard at the adult cert. hearing, that if she was tried strictly as a juvenile, she WOULD be let out at 21. If she is tried as an adult, the dual jurisdiction thing kicks in, and she'd be treated as a juvie during her incarceration, as much as possible (i.e. can't be held in a juvie facility because none are available for violent females, but would get juvie psyche care) until age 21. Then she would be re-evaluated and they would decide what to do with her at that point, regarding facility, psyche care, etc. In other words, the re-eval at 21 only applies to those held under dual-jurisdiction, which requires trial as an adult. I haven't looked it up or anything, but that's what I understood the judge and attornies to say.


All the above is IMHO.

 

[raisincharlie]

"because she wanted to know what it felt like" - How does this indicate that she enjoyed it or is proud of it?

"putting 'killing people' as a hobby" - This was written before the murder. So you can only assume how she felt after the fact.

I understand that these are interpretations and opinions, but since none of us has talked to AB since the murder, all we can do is assume. We do not know how she is feeling about it at this point in time.

I don't think it really matters how she, AB, feels about it. It changes nothing, Elizabeth is still dead. That is no doubt a FACT.

 

[Elley Mae]

I want to hear from the people in AB's house what she was like after Elizabeth was reported missing, if it goes to trial.

 

[W8nC]

I don't think it really matters how she, AB, feels about it. It changes nothing, Elizabeth is still dead. That is no doubt a FACT.

True, Elizabeth is still dead.


But I might support different punishments for AB, depending on whether she was proud and elated, or shocked and horrified, or sad and despondent.....

 

[emeraldeyes85]

You cannot reform someone who kills "just to see what it feels like".

Not possible.

Just out of curiosity can I ask how you know that, or is that just an opinion?

 

[Bibliophile]

There is a great deal of assumption about the fact that AB was proud of herself or took joy in the killing. As far as I have seen there is NO evidence to support that.

I never thought there was particular evidence for joy. What I found most noteworthy was the evidence supporting the cavalier attitude about committing murder.

This is very important because you change a potentially psychosis-driven act to something done for amusement.

No one has ever reported Alyssa being psychotic nor has her treatment history ever indicated such. Contrary to what some would like us to believe, a brain diseased enough to produce hallucinations or delusions cannot turn on and off at will. It is not something that is here one day and poof, gone the next.

 

[Jodibug]

I have seen Alyssa in court three times now. Certification hearing 11/18 am, first arraingment hearing 11/18 pm and rearraignment on 12/8. She has shown NO emotion. She is a cold, hardened person.

Personally, I would be bawling if I were in court over a traffic ticket, much less the cold blooded murder of an innocent child.

All three times I have seen her in court, she has been in the same room with Elizabeth's mother (Patty). She does not look ashamed, upset, embarassed or anything else. She just sits there... cold and heartless.

 

[Bibliophile]

Originally Posted by Kimster
Actually, I've been wondering how she felt about it after the fact as well. I still don't think it has any bearing on AB having consequences for her actions as dictated by the law.

It could, however, have a huge impact on what those consequences are. For example, prison or a mental health facility.

How so?? Many criminals, especially murderers, express remorse. That remorse doesn't buy them a ticket to a mental facility.

Alyssa Bustamante simply does not meet the standard of one criminally insane; in Missouri nor in most other states.

 

[emeraldeyes85]

I never thought there was particular evidence for joy. What I found most noteworthy was the evidence supporting the cavalier attitude about committing murder.



No one has ever reported Alyssa being psychotic nor has her treatment history ever indicated such. Contrary to what some would like us to believe, a brain diseased enough to produce hallucinations or delusions cannot turn on and off at will. It is not something that is here one day and poof, gone the next.

We have her treatment history and medical/therapy file with doctors notes? Can you link me to that I would really like to have a peek. Thanks!

 

[dnrslucky1]

I have seen Alyssa in court three times now. Certification hearing 11/18 am, first arraingment hearing 11/18 pm and rearraignment on 12/8. She has shown NO emotion. She is a cold, hardened person.

Personally, I would be bawling if I were in court over a traffic ticket, much less the cold blooded murder of an innocent child.

All three times I have seen her in court, she has been in the same room with Elizabeth's mother (Patty). She does not look ashamed, upset, embarassed or anything else. She just sits there... cold and heartless.

If she is still taking Prozac, that could be why. I have known a few people that were prescribed Prozac for depression. The Prozac seemed to erase all of their emotions, it took away their sad, happy, worried and mad emotions. It was really weird to know someone before Prozac and after.

 

[Bibliophile]

Just out of curiosity can I ask how you know that, or is that just an opinion?

Perhaps what Jodibug was trying to say is that she believes Alyssa has an anti-social personality disorder, sometimes known as sociopathic. Alyssa's statement to the police and on the internet indicates a lack of empathy and disregard of human life - a hallmark of ASPD. The professional literature is replete with evidence indicating that ASPDs are not treatable and its often best to focus on protecting society.

 

[Prof]

I have seen Alyssa in court three times now. Certification hearing 11/18 am, first arraingment hearing 11/18 pm and rearraignment on 12/8. She has shown NO emotion. She is a cold, hardened person.

Personally, I would be bawling if I were in court over a traffic ticket, much less the cold blooded murder of an innocent child.

All three times I have seen her in court, she has been in the same room with Elizabeth's mother (Patty). She does not look ashamed, upset, embarassed or anything else. She just sits there... cold and heartless.

Oh, I am sorry; I guess I misread your reports

I remember the 11/18 court dates spectators only saw what the camera showed as the spectators were on another floor -- I remember that there was some discussion between two posters here as far as whether or not AB showed emotion

The report two days ago was that AB kept her head down with hair in face, so her face was never seen

Found Deceased MO-Elizabeth Olten, 9, St. Martin's Thread #13 - Page 20 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Anyway, I agree that the lack of emotion is not normal -- sick even, especially in an adolescent female

 

[Bibliophile]

We have her treatment history and medical/therapy file with doctors notes? Can you link me to that I would really like to have a peek. Thanks!

LOL.

It doesn't take access to her records.

We have heard testimony regarding her medications and mental health care. We have also heard interviews and statements from dozens of people in the community that support the information testified to in court. She had previously been diagnosed with depression and self-mutilation.