Found Deceased NH - Celina Cass, 11, Stewartstown, 25 July 2011 #11 *Arrest*

[Chris_Texas]

I read the same thing on nearly every thread. "LE doesn't tell us anything. LE is silent. LE doesn't have anything or they would tell us. This case will never be solved. Et cetera, Et cetera.

It is frustrating to all of us watching and waiting to hear of an arrest.

Today Zahra Baker's murderer went to court. Oct 9 will be one year since Zahra was reported missing. It has been a long year and the outcome wasn't what most of us wanted but EB is in prison. Better something than nothing.

Celina is just as important and it is another case much like Zahra's in that the evidence just wasn't there. This might be another case where the DA is going to have to do a Plea Agreement with the Devil - (accused) to get any kind of conviction.

There are a lot of variables involved with a plea agreement. At this point, we don't know what LE has or who they suspect so it is a waiting game.

I don't think any amount of press coverage can solve a case. Even when we think it is cold I believe someone will be working on it. These detectives want to find out if it was an accident or who killed her, how she was killed, and why was she killed.

Too much coverage can be as damaging as too little imo. Look at Caylee, look at the coverage, did Caylee get justice. It became a three ring circus, the Anthonys, The defense team, and the Prosecution team. Somehow, in all of that the media focused on Casey, not on Caylee. She seemed to be lost in the arena. I wonder if there had been less coverage if there would have been a conviction????? We'll never know and again the evidence just wasn't there for a murder conviction.

We all want the same thing for Celina whether she was murdered or if it was some kind of terrible accident that someone attempted to hide. We want the truth and with that truth we want justice, real justice. We want peace for her family, friends, and the town.

Well, now that I've preached a sermon I feel like I need to say, "Let us Pray"

(Responding to the bolded bit in the middle...)

Respectfully, we know that this is not correct. Press coverage and TV shows often solve cases that the police have essentially abandoned.

It is all well and good for the police to say 'If you know anything tell us please,' but if the public does not know any information about the case they cannot possibly know what information is useful. In other words you don't know if you have a puzzle piece until you get a glimpse of the puzzle itself.

The flip side of this is potentially ruining the case. But this is a bit far fetched. The prosecution is required by law to give the defense access to all the evidence they intend to present at trial. There is no secrets there. And while it might be useful for the police to hold back a few key details only the killer might know, this in no way would preclude them from releasing some or even most of the information they have. It's not like they would be telling the killer something he does not already know.

The only people they are letting in on the secret are the public, the people who employ them and who might actually have the pieces they are missing.

As for Casey Anthony, like many notorious cases it was tried in the press before it was tried in court, and it is possible that this influenced the result. Possible, but not really likely. Casey walked for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which was a very good defense team and a prosecution that got a bit too clever for their own case. But that case was sensational from the beginning, this one not so much.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

There are 16,000 murders a year in the US and 60% end up solved. Most of those cases are going to be obscure, not a big story in the media, yet LE still solved them. The notation that once a case gets dropped from the media, its dropped by LE doesn't make any sense to me because most cases don't get any media attention in the first place. Most cases are solved by LE, not by some TV show.

 

[JeannieC]

(Responding to the bolded bit in the middle...)

Respectfully, we know that this is not correct. Press coverage and TV shows often solve cases that the police have essentially abandoned.

It is all well and good for the police to say 'If you know anything tell us please,' but if the public does not know any information about the case they cannot possibly know what information is useful. In other words you don't know if you have a puzzle piece until you get a glimpse of the puzzle itself.

The flip side of this is potentially ruining the case. But this is a bit far fetched. The prosecution is required by law to give the defense access to all the evidence they intend to present at trial. There is no secrets there. And while it might be useful for the police to hold back a few key details only the killer might know, this in no way would preclude them from releasing some or even most of the information they have. It's not like they would be telling the killer something he does not already know.

The only people they are letting in on the secret are the public, the people who employ them and who might actually have the pieces they are missing.

As for Casey Anthony, like many notorious cases it was tried in the press before it was tried in court, and it is possible that this influenced the result. Possible, but not really likely. Casey walked for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which was a very good defense team and a prosecution that got a bit too clever for their own case. But that case was sensational from the beginning, this one not so much.

I have to backtrack on one statement I made or rephrase it. I don't believe a lot of uninformative interviews with the family will solve a case.

Press conferences ARE a different story if LE will give out some kind of information. Not just "we don't have any information to give you."

In the Zahra Baker case it was a news report that the DA believes caused EB to ask for a deal. She saw a news report where they were searching the landfill and had located a mattress and were pulling it up with a front end loader (or something like that). Then the media took overhead shots of the forest in the area where they were searching. EB then thought they were about to find Zahra so she asked to make a deal. In reality, LE was no where near to Zahra's remains but from overhead EB thought they were.

News coverage did help to solve that case. LE did make regular announcements and were open to questions.

 

[Joe Friday]

Do you think I base my opinions on TV shows? Evidence is not like fruit growing on a tree, you don't wait for it to grow and get good and ripe before you pick it. Either the police have the evidence or they do not. If they do then where's the arrest? If they do not, then they need to stop playing secret-detective and solicit the public's help by telling them what they know.

In my opinion.

RSFSBM & BBM

Could you please point out a case where someone has been arrested for murder with the following criteria?

1. The body has been found but there are no apparent signs of foul play at the last known residence of the victim.
2. The body has been found but there are no apparent signs of what the COD would be from viewing the victims body.
3. The body has been found but the determination of the COD was not concluded after the victims initial autopsy.

I could think of more relating to this case but the above should do.

 

[cluciano63]

RSFSBM & BBM

Could you please point out a case where someone has been arrested for murder with the following criteria?

1. The body has been found but there are no apparent signs of foul play at the last known residence of the victim.
2. The body has been found but there are no apparent signs of what the COD would be from viewing the victims body.
3. The body has been found but the determination of the COD was not concluded after the victims initial autopsy.

I could think of more relating to this case but the above should do.

Well, that kind of applies to Caylee Anthony...no crime scene at the home, no apparent cause of death and no official cause of death...but they did have a prime suspect. We don't know if they have that here or not.

 

[JeannieC]

I know nothing of the AG and her professional feelings. But can you please explain how Celina's mother, father, grandparents, teachers, family priest, and compassionate neighbors and townspeople would wish for everyone to forget about Celina? They will go to the end of their days wanting to know what happened to their precious child. And why would anyone in authority wish for this case to go unsolved? It's a small town, and if the person who put that little girl in the water is never identified....

You are wrong. The AG wants to solve this, and G-d knows those who cared about her want to see justice done.
Unlike one hour tv dramas, it often takes a bit of time to solve a mysterious death case.

The people of New Hampshire care about their kids (best state in the country for children), and they don't care only about the blond rich girls.

Bolded by me
Neither do any other states.

 

[katydid23]

I don't recall it ever being said for certain what WN was doing after LN went to bed.

In the first post on the first thread the article reads as if WN was the one who last seen Celina that night. The article has WN saying that the computer was in Celina bedroom also even though it has recently been reported that the computer is located in the living room.

I also vaguely remember it being reported early on that WN was the one that checked in on Celina at 9PM in her room and that he was the last person to see Celina that night. Celina was then gone when Wn went to her room in the morning to make sure she was up for her 9AM hairdresser appointment. More recent article say that LN was on the couch watching a movie with Celina and then LN went upstairs to bed at 9PM but do not mention WN being present at that time.

JMO

Link to:First post in first thread

BBM

Back at the start of this case I remember clearly reading that WN seemed to be the one who had seen her in her room for the last time that evening, and was the one who checked on her that morning. At the time it felt very hinky that a newly married stepfather would be the one to check an 11 yr old in her bedroom in the basement at night. So I remember going back and tracing the original reports, and in fact, it just sounded that way in the reports, but it was never stated anywhere, that I could find, that he did actually go see her in her room that night. The initial reports where all that
she had been watching tv with mom in the family room and then mom went to bed. I never did find a statement anywhere that states he did actually check on her in her room, even though some of the initial statements BY HIM made it sound that way. " She was last seen by family, on the computer, right before she went to bed, .." was what the initial reports actually were. So since it was initially coming out of his mouth, it sounded as though he saw her on the computer in her room. But I do not see that confirmed anywhere.

 

[Chris_Texas]

RSFSBM & BBM

No clue what this means.

Could you please point out a case where someone has been arrested for murder with the following criteria?

1. The body has been found but there are no apparent signs of foul play at the last known residence of the victim.
2. The body has been found but there are no apparent signs of what the COD would be from viewing the victims body.
3. The body has been found but the determination of the COD was not concluded after the victims initial autopsy.

I imagine it's tricky to charge someone with murder without a medical examiner calling the crime a homicide. I'm sure there are a few "bodies in the cellar" type discoveries that result in a homicide charge despite lacking a specific cause of death for each victim, and if I recall an exact cause of death was never established in the Peterson case.

 

[Chris_Texas]

There are 16,000 murders a year in the US and 60% end up solved. Most of those cases are going to be obscure, not a big story in the media, yet LE still solved them. The notation that once a case gets dropped from the media, its dropped by LE doesn't make any sense to me because most cases don't get any media attention in the first place. Most cases are solved by LE, not by some TV show.

When discussing statistics like this it is important (in my opinion) to remember that there are quite a few variables at play. The unidentified dead guy discovered in an alley or ditch is one of those murders, as is the skeleton found in the woods, and the random drive-by where no one saw a thing. In any case in which the police start with nothing the results are likely to be nothing.

But that's not the case here. Celina was eleven, she was at home with her family. That's not exactly a blank slate, and if we are going to talk statistics we know that almost all of crimes on this nature were committed in the home and by a member of her own family or a close family friend. Obviously the police know this as well, which is why they focussed their attention there once they realized they had a crime on their hands. Since they haven't arrested anyone or even given a cause of death it is probably safe to assume that they do not have any evidence tying someone in the home to Celina's death.

 

[MsFacetious]

I do not think that LE wants this case to go away. I think they want it solved.
I don't think there is any reason to start accusing them of covering it up and not caring.
This group of LE has NO reputation of only caring about the "rich white girls." They care about victims.

Many people do not think that West Valley cops have done enough in Susan Powell's case.
Her family has not been critical of them. They have actually been defensive of them.
It is possible that the family sees more than the public does.
That they are aware of what is being done and that is why they are not protesting.
If you know they are working their @$$ off, you aren't going to be angry they aren't working hard enough.

Just because WE don't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

RSFSBM & BBM

Could you please point out a case where someone has been arrested for murder with the following criteria?

1. The body has been found but there are no apparent signs of foul play at the last known residence of the victim.
2. The body has been found but there are no apparent signs of what the COD would be from viewing the victims body.
3. The body has been found but the determination of the COD was not concluded after the victims initial autopsy.

I could think of more relating to this case but the above should do.

I will only give you the first 6 convictions that come to mind.


Scott Peterson was convicted of murder and sentenced to death, with no signs of foul play and no cause of death.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6385208/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/scott-peterson-convicted-murder/


Hans Reiser was convicted of 1st degree murder without a body. At that point he decided he didn't want a life sentence and offered to lead them to the body.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-07-...egree-murder-conviction-wife-s-body-sentenced


Doug Stewart was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison... and Venus' body still hasn't been found. There wasn't blood or anything at her house. The sign of foul play was that she was not there and her kids were... and scuff marks in the gravel.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2011/03/justice_was_served_prosecutor.html


6 year old Logan Tucker was never found... and his "mother" was convicted of his murder and sentenced to life.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070901_1_A17_cpWom02475

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tucker_logan.html


15 year old Danielle Jones just disappeared while walking to the bus stop. She was never found. Her Uncle was convicted of murder and sentenced to life.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2590861.stm


Manuel Salado was never found, but his wife was convicted of murder and sentenced to life.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/salado_manuel.html

 

[Joe Friday]

No clue what this means.

Respectfully Snipped For Space By Me (RSFSBM) & Bolded By Me (BBM)

 

[k4kathy]

I know nothing of the AG and her professional feelings. But can you please explain how Celina's mother, father, grandparents, teachers, family priest, and compassionate neighbors and townspeople would wish for everyone to forget about Celina? They will go to the end of their days wanting to know what happened to their precious child. And why would anyone in authority wish for this case to go unsolved? It's a small town, and if the person who put that little girl in the water is never identified....

You are wrong. The AG wants to solve this, and G-d knows those who cared about her want to see justice done.
Unlike one hour tv dramas, it often takes a bit of time to solve a mysterious death case.

The people of New Hampshire care about their kids (best state in the country for children), and they don't care only about the blond rich girls.

I totally agree

 

[Joe Friday]

Well, that kind of applies to Caylee Anthony...no crime scene at the home, no apparent cause of death and no official cause of death...but they did have a prime suspect. We don't know if they have that here or not.

Mothers that don't report their children missing until after several weeks of last seeing them look pretty suspicious from the get go. Even if your child was kidnapped why wouldn't you report it to LE?

Also the case of Caylee Anthony does not fit my criteria because her mother was arrested before Caylee's body was found. I guess it is hard to get the smell of a dead body out of your car if you leave it there to long. The smell of a decomposing body in your car also points to foul play of the person that owns the car and gives LE someone they can point their finger towards.

JMO

 

[krimekat]

nothing new? sad . . .

 

[Joe Friday]

I will only give you the first 6 convictions that come to mind.


Scott Peterson was convicted of murder and sentenced to death, with no signs of foul play and no cause of death.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6385208/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/scott-peterson-convicted-murder/


Hans Reiser was convicted of 1st degree murder without a body. At that point he decided he didn't want a life sentence and offered to lead them to the body.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-07-...egree-murder-conviction-wife-s-body-sentenced


Doug Stewart was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison... and Venus' body still hasn't been found. There wasn't blood or anything at her house. The sign of foul play was that she was not there and her kids were... and scuff marks in the gravel.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2011/03/justice_was_served_prosecutor.html


6 year old Logan Tucker was never found... and his "mother" was convicted of his murder and sentenced to life.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070901_1_A17_cpWom02475

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tucker_logan.html


15 year old Danielle Jones just disappeared while walking to the bus stop. She was never found. Her Uncle was convicted of murder and sentenced to life.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2590861.stm


Manuel Salado was never found, but his wife was convicted of murder and sentenced to life.

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/salado_manuel.html

RSFSBM

First off I was looking for cases for when the arrest was made, not if someone was eventually convicted.

Also in all three of my criteria the requirement was that the body had been found. One criteria was no signs of foul play. The others were the COD could not be determined before the autopsy by simply viewing the body or that COD could not be determined after the initial autopsy and I should have also added upon this criteria that no arrest was make before the TOX report was returned.

The examples you have given are for conviction in cases where the body was not found. Except for Laci Peterson, which LE clearly had enough evidence to suspect Scott and were no doubt following his every move after Laci's body was found. If LE hadn't arrested Scott when they did he would have more than likely killed Amber Frey and fled the country.

Hans Reiser case, no body found until after he was convicted.

Doug Stewart, no body found and signs of foul play

Logan Tucker mother, no body found, witness's were interview that implicated Logan's mother in the disappearance of her son.

Danielle Jones uncle, no body found

Manuel Salado's wife, no body found, victim also confided in a friend that he was afraid of his wife was trying to kill him the day he disappeared. She also supposedly told two friend that she had killed him. Not to mention all the circumstantial evidence that was collected regarding searches done on her computer on dismemberment and decomp. Not hard to figure out why she got arrested.

As far as Laci Perterson the body was so badly decomposed the COD could not be determined. That is not the case (decomp part) in Celina's case. I'm sure if anyone related to Celina's case was seen within a few days of Celina's body being discovered with their hair dyed to change their appearance, had several cell phones and a bundle of cash on them and it looked as if they were about to leave the country they too would have been arrested by now also.


Back to sitting and waiting for the TOX report so the ME can declare this a homicide or accidental death so charges will hopefully be filed against the person they suspect was involved in Celina's death and disappearance.

JMO

 

[Joe Friday]

I imagine it's tricky to charge someone with murder without a medical examiner calling the crime a homicide. I'm sure there are a few "bodies in the cellar" type discoveries that result in a homicide charge despite lacking a specific cause of death for each victim, and if I recall an exact cause of death was never established in the Peterson case.

BBM

That is what I have been saying all along. I'm so glad you agree.

 

[ClaireNC]

I thought that LE said that the body did have some markings or something that lead them to believe it was suspicious when they first found this poor little girl.

Is anybody keeping notes on this case?

 

[JeannieC]

I thought that LE said that the body did have some markings or something that lead them to believe it was homicide when they first found this poor little girl.

Is anybody keeping notes on this case?

I believe LE called it suspicious. They have never said homicide.

 

[ClaireNC]

I believe LE called it suspicious. They have never said homicide.

Thanks Jeannie, Yes you are right...I used the wrong word! It is now changed in my post.

 

[MarthaM]

I think that one of the reasons why some people have questions/concerns about this investigation is because the AAG was right there, front and center, when Celina was missing, when she was found, and immediately after. Since then, the silence has been deafening. For me, that contrast is a big factor in raising doubts that LE has anything much to go on at this point.