One Killer or More?

So here's the thing about MO vs. signature. FBI profiling refers to signature when it comes to LISK picking women who are all the same size, the same look, the same profession, and then whatever the killer gets out of these murders, whatever drive exists to hurt these women. This is his signature. It has been said that he "choked" the Gilgo 4 victims, so this would be part of his signature. But how he disposes of bodies may be done out of convenience and isn't tied to the signature. So the MO can change rapidly, as in the case of Zodiac switching from shooting to stabbing and back to shooting (because his signature was harassing the media and police and creating panic, that's what he got off on).

So for LISK, the ritual and signature are who he is picking, what he does to them when they're captured, and any gratification he gets after the fact, such as the documented contact with Barthélemy's sister (which ended after news media revealed it was occurring). But the disposal wouldn't necessarily be part of it. There's no staging or posing so there's no ritualistic connection, as in the way Bittrolff apparently posed his victims. Which suggests Bittrolff is not connected to the Gilgo 4 or the dismembered bodies.

So if we believe all of the Gilgo/Manorville bodies are the same killer, we have two different MOs in play: dismembering (early victims only, all nude, no clothing, some jewelry included with Peaches and Baby Doe) and intact in burlap with Gilgo 4 (nude, no clothing, no jewelry). What unites them is they were all placed in the same areas, all identified victims were all known Craigslist workers, and in the case of VM and JT and the Gilgo victims, their similar ages and appearance are part of the signature. (Peaches, uniquely, does not match, which makes you wonder if Peaches could have been a witness rather than a target. The fact that a child was involved lends itself to that theory. Asian Doe is also uniquely disconnected from the signature and was found wearing clothing with blunt force trauma to the face. I am comfortable putting Asian Doe aside and not including them in the official list of LISK victims for now.)

For those thinking there are two separate killers, consider this: If all the dismembered victims plus Baby Doe (1996-2003) were a separate killer not linked to Gilgo 4 (2007-2010), then that, to me, would indicate their remains were placed by the dismemberment killer in the same location as the Gilgo 4 after the Gilgo 4 were discovered in December 2010. Because all of the dismembered remains around Gilgo were not found until April 2011, a few months later. So either it's the same killer for all, another killer who saw the news about the 2010 remains and moved remains to the same location to confuse police, or there were two killers who managed to pick the same 3-mile stretch of remote beach highway to dispose of bodies in all of Long Island. (The idea that two separate unlinked killers picked the same remote stretch of beach is just impossible to me. And I just can't imagine a killer would think, "I am going to move old remains nobody knows about to this location that police have been watching closely.") **I admit it's possible at least two killers know each other and are sharing the same dump site, but you would expect overlapping MOs at the same time, not separate MOs during completely different periods of time. My only allowance there is some kind of generational thing, like a weird father-son team. But again. That's a big leap in guessing.**

This is why I believe Peaches, Baby Doe, Jane Doe 7, VM, and JT were all killed by the same person who killed the Gilgo 4. My assumption is that the MO changed because it had to. Perhaps he no longer had access to a private space to dismember victims? Perhaps he discovered dismembering created too much evidence or was too hard to clean up? Or what if he knew after a while that remains he had placed at Gilgo Beach were not getting discovered as quickly as remains elsewhere, so he decided that area was remote enough to dispose of a whole victim? One body and one dump would be safer than finding places to leave multiple body parts. As FBI profilers learned from the criminals they spoke to, criminals learn to perfect what they do.

I don't think it's coincidence that the victims went missing in the summer months. Even police initially suspected that Valerie Mack's Manorville remains had been dumped in September of 2000. You could infer that the killer takes the same vacation time from work each year, or maybe their job is seasonal in some way and they only spend time in this area in the summer months. Could he be a teacher? A number of things could explain the summer pattern, but there is clear evidence among Gilgo 4 of ritualistic, anniversary-like killing. If anniversary killing was something they were trying to achieve, it makes you wonder if there are any missing sex workers from summer of 2008? That's a gap year in terms of victims. You might also ask the same question of 2004, 2005, and 2006.

Dismemberment suggests he had a private location or space in the mid-90s to 2003 where he would not be disturbed. There's also reason to suggest he was unattached romantically at the time, because anyone live-in would be a threat to discovery. From the change in MO, you could infer that the killer's life circumstances changed between 2003 and 2007. Perhaps he moved in with someone, had a child with someone, changed homes, or no longer had private access to a separate space/residence. This new MO of using Gilgo Beach as a single dump site was maintained over a period of three years: Brainard-Barnes went missing July 9, 2007; Barthélemy went missing July 10, 2009 (notice this is a two-year anniversary, which suggests ritual, reliving a previous crime, thus signature); Megan Waterman missing June 6, 2010 (one month and a few days shy of another anniversary); and Amber Costello went missing just a few months later on September 2, 2010.

The fact that he still hasn't been caught begs the question: What has he been doing since summer 2010? Presumably, the murders stopped because his primary dump site was discovered. Did he stop altogether out of fear of media and police attention or did he simply change his dump site again? Did he move? Has he been caught for a different crime? As of 2020, Peaches' skull has not been found. Jane Doe 7's skull and legs are all that have been recovered of her. This leads me to suspect he has another dump site that hasn't been found, or Hempstead Lake State Park and Fire Island haven't been searched well enough. I would want to know more about any sex workers gone missing between summer 2011 and now, where they have been found, and in what condition.

Now that it's 2020, it's been 13 years of getting away with his crimes after they were discovered. I would be concerned that a killer like this would be emboldened by not getting caught rather than anxious. Which leads me to believe he has killed since 2010 and we just don't know it yet.

A few thoughts for what they're worth...did you notice in the recent coverage, maybe it was chief of detectives or maybe an investigator idk, he floated the idea of Peaches perhaps not being tied to the rest. This has crossed my mind because of things that set her apart from the others, some of which you've laid out. I look at the parkway scene as nine incidents, nine in that 14 year time frame. So we have id's on two thirds of the incidents, of which half were working out of Manhattan. Obviously all killed in serial fashion with any one of the six able to pass for the others if you squinted your eyes just right.

The thing with peaches I can't shake is that she's almost certainly tied to at the least the 96 victim. Years roll by on the parkway with nothing showing up and all of a sudden you get two incidents in two consecutive years where well hidden, dismembered but only partial remains are placed within 2 miles from one another on this 9 mile stretch of road. Yes, scattered in three different locations, unless they missed something. Good eye on whoever caught that.

Whether they're tied to the others I struggle with. I try not to get too hung up on the different Mo's and the signatures because of the time span and the victim similarities and as you said the MO can change. If they can change it seems signatures could also evolve or be tweaked as time goes by or even purposely not displayed as a form of countermeasure.

Another thing to keep in mind is the public's awareness of forensic capability and its evolution in those 14 or perhaps even 17 years. 95 was around the time most folks realized one could be identified from a single drop of bodily fluid. That might be the time you wise up if you're a budding SK not wanting to get caught.

Two of the four dismembered were practically left to be quickly found so maybe some taunting going on there but even with the fresh bodies he's apparently very careful to leave no trace of himself behind. I don't know, I go back and forth with the possibility of it all being the same deviant but I do have high confidence that, as it happens, the six that have been identified are the work of the same killer.

Regarding john b, does he just stop after the carnage shown in 93-94 or did he carry on a couple years later, more knowledgeable and change it up by scattering remains in both well and not so well hidden areas to fw LE? I believe he was fw LE in 93-94 by posing the first bodies. The multiple phone calls although placed to the sister was in some respects fw LE. Someone needs to ask Geraldine the direct question... has he been ruled out? I get the feeling they're looking elsewhere, could be they have good reason to.
 
I agree with some of what you said, but I have spent 10 years getting to know LISK. In my view, he does not dismember. He's a collector. Having these 4 bodies laid out in a trophy case where he can ride by them several times a day, is important to him. It prolongs his feeling of power...over their remains ("I'm going to watch her rot")...but also over all these other stupid people who ride past his work and don't even have a clue.

I'm okay with people thinking LISK dismembers, I simply strongly disagree with that.
I mean, this assumes he goes by that area every day. If you're right, then he's not from Philly or farther away like Atlantic City. Then the "trophy" theory wouldn't fit. I've actually been to Jones Beach at the amphitheater—it's as remote as you can get with very few access points. Where these women were being left, it's a road, a median, a road, a bike trail recently added (imagine riding that alone), deep shrubs and tall grass, then ocean. No lights. Nothing around for miles. I mean, the truth of the matter is you can go clicking through Google Streetviews following this whole area and it's no surprise that someone would pick this area for these reasons. The area around Gilgo Beach in particular has extremely tall grass. Cornfield height.

If the killer was trying to ride by where he left his victims on the regular, this person was or is extremely local. Nobody who lives in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, northern LI, or far-east LI is commuting/driving out of their way to this area because it would truly be 2 or more hours by car, worse commuting, just to pass by. If they live alone and no one knows their movements, or if they have an excuse to go to this area sporadically, then it's possible. But the trophy idea would only work, in my mind, if they were based locally. Now, considering the identified victims are all summer victims (June-September), you could argue that if they live farther into LI, such as the Manorville area, a one-way 75-minute trip could be masked as "going to the beach." But then how is the trophy theory fitting someone who lives far away from this area?

If they're sometimes in Manhattan, or work in Manhattan, they're a commuter. But we know they have an automobile, so maybe they commute to the station and drive home. You can look at the LIRR station map and the access points for that portion of Ocean Parkway and narrow it down to an Oak Beach resident, a Far Rockaway resident, a Long Beach resident or some other nearby area. There is no one else who has reason to be on that road in that part of Long Island unless you live there.

But, if they are not local to that portion of Long Island, if they live in eastern LI nearer to Manorville, to me, the trophy theory would not line up, which wouldn't then support the idea of multiple killers using the same area.
 
Amanda Barthelemy, Melissa Barthelemy's younger sister Recieved a call from The Long Island Serial Killer Using Melissa’s cellphone days after she went missing.


“Is this Melissa’s little sister?” Long Island Serial killer asked.

“Yes,” replied the 16-year-old girl.

“Do you know what your sister is doing?” he said. “She’s a *advertiser censored*.”


The call, police believe, was made by a the Long Island Serial Killer who abducted and strangled Melissa Barthelemy, an aspiring hair stylist, sometime after she left her Bronx apartment on July 10, 2009.
Long Island Serial Killer LISK The Long Island Serial Killer
 
I mean, this assumes he goes by that area every day. If you're right, then he's not from Philly or farther away like Atlantic City. Then the "trophy" theory wouldn't fit. I've actually been to Jones Beach at the amphitheater—it's as remote as you can get with very few access points. Where these women were being left, it's a road, a median, a road, a bike trail recently added (imagine riding that alone), deep shrubs and tall grass, then ocean. No lights. Nothing around for miles. I mean, the truth of the matter is you can go clicking through Google Streetviews following this whole area and it's no surprise that someone would pick this area for these reasons. The area around Gilgo Beach in particular has extremely tall grass. Cornfield height.

If the killer was trying to ride by where he left his victims on the regular, this person was or is extremely local. Nobody who lives in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, northern LI, or far-east LI is commuting/driving out of their way to this area because it would truly be 2 or more hours by car, worse commuting, just to pass by. If they live alone and no one knows their movements, or if they have an excuse to go to this area sporadically, then it's possible. But the trophy idea would only work, in my mind, if they were based locally. Now, considering the identified victims are all summer victims (June-September), you could argue that if they live farther into LI, such as the Manorville area, a one-way 75-minute trip could be masked as "going to the beach." But then how is the trophy theory fitting someone who lives far away from this area?

If they're sometimes in Manhattan, or work in Manhattan, they're a commuter. But we know they have an automobile, so maybe they commute to the station and drive home. You can look at the LIRR station map and the access points for that portion of Ocean Parkway and narrow it down to an Oak Beach resident, a Far Rockaway resident, a Long Beach resident or some other nearby area. There is no one else who has reason to be on that road in that part of Long Island unless you live there.

But, if they are not local to that portion of Long Island, if they live in eastern LI nearer to Manorville, to me, the trophy theory would not line up, which wouldn't then support the idea of multiple killers using the same area.

I don't believe that these other victims, aside from the GB4 (and possibly the AC4) are the work of LISK. And I do believe that LISK drove past the GB4 almost every day. I believe LISK lives on Long Island and works or travels to NYC on a regular basis. So the "trophy case" theory makes perfect sense TO ME. Others may disagree.
 
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I did watch the killing season. What is interesting is that I am from the fuel industry. I was really wondering if the show would lead to truck drivers. My eyes grew big as it did. Not because I was surprised, but because it just underlined what I already knew deep inside.

Out of all the people I knew in the industry (I was in it for 6 years) , I thought I had one person who was a friend. I knew him 5 years and he was a driver turned transportation manager. We'd hang out and have a beer and shoot the breeze like 2x a month. Let's just say I had a horrific experience that I never saw coming. I mean, never. I am dealing with what he has done which has almost completely ruined me. Every time my mind gets a bit better and I have to go to the doctor, it's like the whole thing starts all over again. It was then I realized that these people are a certain kind of breed. He is a predator / monster. And what is sad is that, the law is totally on his side. Unfortunately, it is the consequences of living in California. Some of the laws here are really ridiculous. It made me wonder, how many other have there been ? Has he killed anyone ? Who knows.
 
I love hearing all these theories. Someone is going to nail it. From an objective standpoint I get the idea that it could be two killers, but I always go back to Ramirez who selected different victims and used a variety of methods to kill. We all love patterns but by the same token you can't be hamstrung by them when it comes to serial killers. With respect to location, it's relatively remote. Being close to the beach it almost feels like a place you might have driven by as a kid or on a family trip, which makes me think the killer had some sort of local knowledge of the terrain or roots in the region. I'm a newbie, so jump all over my *advertiser censored* if this sounds dumb. I'm ready for the fire!
 
Has anyone been listening to Unraveled: Long Island Serial Killer podcast with Billy Jensen? Some pretty incredible info coming out every Wednesday.
 
Who thinks there could be two serial killers on Long Island?
We are all familiar with the Gilgo Beach Four, and the torsos found in Manorville, but there are so many differences between the two I find it hard to believe it is the MO of one killer.
The bodies found in Manorville were torsos, which is a very specific type of killer called a torso killer. (The name is self explanitory), while the GB4 were wrapped in burlap, and were all found together. These women were also all sex workers, while the bodies found in Manorville ranged from a sex worker, to an asian man, to a toddler.
Who has theories on this?
 
Tough to see, & yes, it does seem like two different killers. But you could also make the argument that earlier on & in Manorville, the killer did want the women to be identified, hence cutting the limbs & head. Maybe he got tired of physically putting in so much effort in cutting up a body.

For instance, looking at John Bittrolff, his DNA was found on Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee in 1993. Several other murders have him as a very strong suspect & his house was only a few miles away from where the bodies were discovered.

Can someone like Bittrolff be responsible for the GB4? Hard to say, but serial killers are known to change their MO's & adapt to upcoming technologies, etc.

Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee bodies were discovered fairly quickly, & that might have scared Bittrolff into cutting up the bodies so their identities wouldnt be known. Then perhaps he moved the graveyard over to Gilgo. Bittrolff had done carpentry work in Gilgo for several houses from what ive read, so he knew the are quite well.....does this make him LISK?

The authorities have Bittrolff's DNA, so if they had any DNA from the GB4 or any other victim matching up, they would have come forward with it.

If they do have LISK's DNA, which is different from Bittrolff's, it hasnt matched up with any POI or suspect on their radar, & they probably would have ran it thru familial genealogy like the Golden State Killer to catch him.

Imo, the authorities do not have LISK's DNA, but are using other methods to possibly catch him.

So are there two killers? Possibly, but until they identify the killer of the GB4, we wont know.
 
Tough to see, & yes, it does seem like two different killers. But you could also make the argument that earlier on & in Manorville, the killer did want the women to be identified, hence cutting the limbs & head. Maybe he got tired of physically putting in so much effort in cutting up a body.

For instance, looking at John Bittrolff, his DNA was found on Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee in 1993. Several other murders have him as a very strong suspect & his house was only a few miles away from where the bodies were discovered.

Can someone like Bittrolff be responsible for the GB4? Hard to say, but serial killers are known to change their MO's & adapt to upcoming technologies, etc.

Rita Tangredi and Colleen McNamee bodies were discovered fairly quickly, & that might have scared Bittrolff into cutting up the bodies so their identities wouldnt be known. Then perhaps he moved the graveyard over to Gilgo. Bittrolff had done carpentry work in Gilgo for several houses from what ive read, so he knew the are quite well.....does this make him LISK?

The authorities have Bittrolff's DNA, so if they had any DNA from the GB4 or any other victim matching up, they would have come forward with it.

If they do have LISK's DNA, which is different from Bittrolff's, it hasnt matched up with any POI or suspect on their radar, & they probably would have ran it thru familial genealogy like the Golden State Killer to catch him.

Imo, the authorities do not have LISK's DNA, but are using other methods to possibly catch him.

So are there two killers? Possibly, but until they identify the killer of the GB4, we wont know.
If it is ≥2 killers, they have to have been in contact with one another. If Bitrolff for example is indeed a perp in this case and he wasn't the only one, he has to know the other killer(s). It's way too coincidental.

"Oh look, I'm hauling a victim to Gilgo Beach right now and I see the skeletonized remains of what was obviously a another murder! I guess this is a popular spot to hide bodies" doesn't sound like a very plausible story to me
 
I wonder if they ever considered doing testing on any soil samples that were on the bodies, if there was any. That might could tell if the bodies had been moved from elsewhere at some point. I'm sure it is too late now to conduct such a test. It is hard for me to wrap my head around that many bodies being there undiscovered for that long of a time.
 
If it is ≥2 killers, they have to have been in contact with one another. If Bitrolff for example is indeed a perp in this case and he wasn't the only one, he has to know the other killer(s). It's way too coincidental.

"Oh look, I'm hauling a victim to Gilgo Beach right now and I see the skeletonized remains of what was obviously a another murder! I guess this is a popular spot to hide bodies" doesn't sound like a very plausible story to me



Its crazy to think two serial killers that didnt know each other were using the same stretch of beach to dump bodies, but crazier things have happened.
 
I wonder if they ever considered doing testing on any soil samples that were on the bodies, if there was any. That might could tell if the bodies had been moved from elsewhere at some point. I'm sure it is too late now to conduct such a test. It is hard for me to wrap my head around that many bodies being there undiscovered for that long of a time.



Looking at the bramble which is rough tangling shrub, makes me wonder how LISK got the bodies in there, unless he threw the bodies into the brush. Throwing dead weight is very heavy, & if he threw a body into the brush, he must have serious strength.
 
Looking at the bramble which is rough tangling shrub, makes me wonder how LISK got the bodies in there, unless he threw the bodies into the brush. Throwing dead weight is very heavy, & if he threw a body into the brush, he must have serious strength.
Can't say I'm a mathematician nor mortician. How much would the victims weigh after death? They were all around 90-110 lbs.
 
Can't say I'm a mathematician nor mortician. How much would the victims weigh after death? They were all around 90-110 lbs.


Try lifting 50 pounds of potatoes, thats how theyre usually delivered to a restaurant, thats what dead weight feels like, & im not a big guy, so I always needed help. Now take a human thats 100-115 pounds in rigor mortis, they become stiff.

Thinking back, I cant see anyone in the restaurant that would be able to throw a 50 pound bag of potatoes several feet in bramble without possibly throwing their back out, let alone 100-115 pounds.

If LISK had cut up the bodies, then its easy to see him throwing parts into the bramble, but they were fully intact inside the burlap from what detectives have described.

Imo, he has stamina & strength which make him thrive in his extracurricular activities.....

The overall timeline of rigor mortis under ordinary conditions is as follows:
  • 0-8 hours: Body begins to harden but is still movable.
  • 8-12 hours: Muscles become fully stiff.
  • 12-24 hours: Muscles stay solid and stiff.
  • 24-36 hours: Stiffness disperses, and muscles become flexible.

Imo, he gets rid of the bodies within the first 8 hours after death or waits 36 or more hours to rid of the bodies. Too difficult to move/maneuver the bodies in between those times.
 
Try lifting 50 pounds of potatoes, thats how theyre usually delivered to a restaurant, thats what dead weight feels like, & im not a big guy, so I always needed help. Now take a human thats 100-115 pounds in rigor mortis, they become stiff.

Thinking back, I cant see anyone in the restaurant that would be able to throw a 50 pound bag of potatoes several feet in bramble without possibly throwing their back out, let alone 100-115 pounds.

If LISK had cut up the bodies, then its easy to see him throwing parts into the bramble, but they were fully intact inside the burlap from what detectives have described.

Imo, he has stamina & strength which make him thrive in his extracurricular activities.....

The overall timeline of rigor mortis under ordinary conditions is as follows:
  • 0-8 hours: Body begins to harden but is still movable.
  • 8-12 hours: Muscles become fully stiff.
  • 12-24 hours: Muscles stay solid and stiff.
  • 24-36 hours: Stiffness disperses, and muscles become flexible.

Imo, he gets rid of the bodies within the first 8 hours after death or waits 36 or more hours to rid of the bodies. Too difficult to move/maneuver the bodies in between those times.
Thanks for the input to my question.

A 36 hour wait is quite plausible. I mean, it's clear that the degenerate(s) behind all this know what they're doing. Would not at all come across as a colossal surprise if the LISK(s) have been on this website.
 
From my understanding, evidence may point to all 4 bodies being placed at the same time. Meaning, he may have kept them somewhere or… moved them. But move them to Gilgo during the Shannon search? That sounds morbidly voyeuristic, like the dead watching over the search for the missing dead. Maybe that’s what Gilgo is really about. All those bodies lined up, spectating…
 
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From my understanding, evidence may point to all 4 bodies being placed at the same time. Meaning, he may have kept them somewhere or… moved them. But move them to Gilgo during the Shannon search? That sounds morbidly voyeuristic, like the dead watching over the search for the missing dead. Maybe that’s what Gilgo is really about. All those bodies lined up, spectating…

Would his vehicle be static the whole time as he walks back and forth carrying remains along the side of the parkway or would he be pulling up an parking, getting out, placing a set in the brush, getting back in, pulling up and so on four times until this task is complete? They would surely be able to differentiate a set that had laid there years vs months. I've never understood the all at once speculation but it does keep coming up. Maybe it's used to bolster a theory idk. If they were feet from each other instead of yards I'd be more inclined to entertain the speculation but I've always considered the notion outside the bounds of plausibility. Getting caught with a body is one thing, getting caught with four would be something else.
 
Would his vehicle be static the whole time as he walks back and forth carrying remains along the side of the parkway or would he be pulling up an parking, getting out, placing a set in the brush, getting back in, pulling up and so on four times until this task is complete? They would surely be able to differentiate a set that had laid there years vs months. I've never understood the all at once speculation but it does keep coming up. Maybe it's used to bolster a theory idk. If they were feet from each other instead of yards I'd be more inclined to entertain the speculation but I've always considered the notion outside the bounds of plausibility. Getting caught with a body is one thing, getting caught with four would be something else.



Good questions.....

I think hes confident with Gilgo beach at night. He probably knows that stretch of beach like the back of his hand. Its desolate at night, not many cars driving on that road at night.

Having 4 bodies in a van at once is insane, but if he did that, he has the nerves of steel.....definitely not moving 4 bodies in a car.

If he did have 4 bodies in a van & is stopping every several hundred feet & tossing them, that is not only taking a chance of getting scene with each body tossed, but also a lot of physical & exhaustive work in the same night.

Imo, they were dumped on different nights. Also, from what ive read, all 4 would have been naked, because no clothing was found on them, correct me if im wrong.

This killer is very meticulous. He probably even washes any trace evidence off the bodies before dumping them, which makes me think he might not have had any sex with them. Would have been a huge mistake to have sex & leave any possible semen, etc on or inside the body, even using a condom, could still leave a lot of evidence behind, not knowing when the bodies would be found.

This killer thinks out every step before taking it, he doesnt make many mistakes, if any. The main motive seems to be torture & killing, torture being foreplay for him.
 

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