GUILTY PA - Jonathan 'Jonnie' Moyer, 17, Brownstown, 19 March 2003

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KatherineQ, I had originally posted that you should jump in with your thoughts but after reading this link you posted, I wouldn't feel comfortable jumping in. But don't feel like you're eavesdropping; everyone there probably knows that their messages are able to be viewed publicly.

Thanks again for the link ... very interesting reading.
 
JerseyGirl said:
KatherineQ, I had originally posted that you should jump in with your thoughts but after reading this link you posted, I wouldn't feel comfortable jumping in. But don't feel like you're eavesdropping; everyone there probably knows that their messages are able to be viewed publicly.

Thanks again for the link ... very interesting reading.
apparently another kid from that same high school killed as well..

http://www.etymonline.com/columns/column23.htm
 
Is there something in the water? The two stories are not just "common" murder but bizarre, teen-aged lover's triangles sorts of scenarios. I'm not familiar with Lancaster County other than the Pennsylvania Dutch & Amish populations being there. I'm not sure how intermingled "normal" society is. It's a beautiful yet strange place; I don't know what the dynamics are like there.
 
I'm sorry . . . but I read this entry from the link:

I was friends with both the victim and the suspect. I can't begin to exlpain how I feel and what is going through my head. My sympathy goes to the family and friends of Jonnie, he was truely loved and cared for. He is in a better place now, it just hurts to know the way it happened. I dont understand how you can take another persons life and live with that for 2 years and not tell a soul. I love you Jonnie, RIP.



He was truely loved and cared for? BY WHOM???? Surely not his parents. I'm sure he had friends that loved him, but if mom and dad were anything but ridiculously absent parents, he may still be alive. He was a kid for Christ sake. What was he doing out there on his own?
 
Jeana (DP) said:
He was truely loved and cared for? BY WHOM???? Surely not his parents. I'm sure he had friends that loved him, but if mom and dad were anything but ridiculously absent parents, he may still be alive. He was a kid for Christ sake. What was he doing out there on his own?
I thought exactly the same thing. Did you notice the post shorty after that one that said that his father (and step-mother?) did love him but that he did whatever he wanted. Another post combined with that gave me the impression that he was a "troubled" kid. But the bottom line is that he was a kid; he was the responsibility of the parent(s). If you give your child rules & they don't follow them, then it's up to the parent to find a way to enforce them. To simply throw your hands up and move on is unacceptable.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
He was a kid for Christ sake. What was he doing out there on his own?

While I don't know the people involved here, I wanted to say that its possible his parents had no control of where he was. I left home to be on my own at 17, just a month and a half into my senior year of high school. And there was nothing my parents could do about it. I don't know about PA, but here, while you are still considered a minor at 17, you can legally run away from home. My parents could have called me in as a runaway, but the police could not legally make me go back. (Ironically for me, the counselor that my parents were paying to see me gave me all the legal details of when and how I could do this about a year prior.)

Anyway, there is a message on that board from a girl claiming to have dated Jonnie that said he wouldn't go home. That his parents loved him very much . . . you never know, this could have been a case of "tough love" on their part.

JMO
 
You may be right; however, I did the "tough love" thing with my 19-year old son as well. If I didn't hear for him for two years, there would have been a missing persons report filed (in fact wayyyyyy before one year, much less two). The relationship with his folks must have been so broken that they didn't think there was anything wrong with them not hearing from him for so long. That seems very sad to me.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
You may be right; however, I did the "tough love" thing with my 19-year old son as well. If I didn't hear for him for two years, there would have been a missing persons report filed (in fact wayyyyyy before one year, much less two). The relationship with his folks must have been so broken that they didn't think there was anything wrong with them not hearing from him for so long. That seems very sad to me.

I can certainly understand and empathize with your opinion on this. I will only add that I didn't tell my parents where I was going and didn't talk to them for more than a year -- didn't even invite them to my high school graduation. I don't know if my mother ever reported me, though I suspect she did not, but I'm not sure the police could have or would have done anything about it.

Again, we're talking about a person with the legal right to walk away. Unless there is reason to suspect foul play, the police most likely would rather spend their time and resources in areas where they know a crime has been committed. ETA: I get the feeling that it was not at all unusual for him to not come home and not contact anyone . . . Given that he had told several people that he was going to Florida never to be seen again, I don't think its a stretch to believe his parents believed that's exactly what happened to him.

I just don't think we know enough about the situation to be able to condemn the parents. They may very well have done the best they knew how to do. I can think of a number of scenarios where they may not have been able to do anything to prevent what eventually happened to him. But now, if you wanna talk about where the police failed Jonnie . . . I could rant and rave on that all day long!!
 
LadyGraffix@mac.com said:
I can certainly understand and empathize with your opinion on this. I will only add that I didn't tell my parents where I was going and didn't talk to them for more than a year -- didn't even invite them to my high school graduation. I don't know if my mother ever reported me, though I suspect she did not, but I'm not sure the police could have or would have done anything about it.


I don't want to get personal, all I'll say is that its not a normal thing.
 
Jeana (DP) said:
I don't want to get personal, all I'll say is that its not a normal thing.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend or step on anyone's toes. I was just sharing my experience as an example of parents not having the kind of control over a "child" that others may think they should. While some may think of a 17 year-old as a child, the law views it a little differently.

My bet would be that there are areas of blame that fall on both sides.
 
LadyGraffix@mac.com said:
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend or step on anyone's toes. I was just sharing my experience as an example of parents not having the kind of control over a "child" that others may think they should. While some may think of a 17 year-old as a child, the law views it a little differently.

My bet would be that there are areas of blame that fall on both sides.


Absolutely!
 
to Lancaster County to get away from paying alimony and child support to my sister and her 4 kids by him. He was able for YEARS to work "under the table" so there was no "official" record of him having any income that could be tracked and garnisheed. My sister finally found him herself and served him with papers-and to this day he has NEVER PAID A DIME of the money the courts decreed he should pay. Gives you some idea of the dynamic of this place!




Bring Maura home!
 
JerseyGirl said:
I thought exactly the same thing. Did you notice the post shorty after that one that said that his father (and step-mother?) did love him but that he did whatever he wanted. Another post combined with that gave me the impression that he was a "troubled" kid. But the bottom line is that he was a kid; he was the responsibility of the parent(s). If you give your child rules & they don't follow them, then it's up to the parent to find a way to enforce them. To simply throw your hands up and move on is unacceptable.


I don't know what type of a kid Jonnie was but there are kids...teens...that no matter what rules you have in your home the kid refuses to follow them.
This is not uncommon in this day and age. I know because I am raising one.
It's easy to say what a person would or should do but you really have to stand in the other person's shoes before you make a judgment. I know quite a few parents/grandparents that are raising teens today and it is not a easy thing to do. Some kids are just so strong willed that they are going to live their life the way they want regardless.

We don't know the family or what their lives were like. For all we know the dad could very well be a loving father and wanted the best for his son and Jonnie may have wanted to do things his way and it created problems. It's so easy to lay the blame on the parents but in reality it isn't always that the parents are bad parents. Reading what the young people on that thread had to say it sounds like we are reading a lot into a situation that may have not been at all like is being suggested.

Small towns often have lazy cops that do nothing but drive around and give a traffic ticket once in awhile. The cops usually don't have much training except to just be seen around town. How could he not go check out that smell? Sad that this young man lost his life at such a young age.
 
Bobbisangel said:
Small towns often have lazy cops that do nothing but drive around and give a traffic ticket once in awhile. The cops usually don't have much training except to just be seen around town. How could he not go check out that smell? Sad that this young man lost his life at such a young age.


I beg to differ.... Working in LE, I know that even "small town" cops are required to have a certain amount of training per year, just as "big city" cops, to keep them certified, not including their college degree, be it an Associtates Degree or Bachelors. Small town cops can be very busy ~ just because you dont see everything they do, does not mean they are not doing it. Small town have their fair share of trouble.

As to why they did not check out the smell, I do not know... But I do not think it is fair or correct, to generaliz all "small town cops".
 
JerseyGirl said:
The whole thing is one of the most bizarre things I've heard in a very long time. And what's really tragic is that now that this story has broken, there is STILL virtually no news about it on the Internet!


That might be because you were reading the Philadelphia newspapers. The Lancaster newspapers have been full of this story. It's been front page news here since the story broke. They had an obituary for him in the newspaper soon after he was found, and it was so sad. I don't know why his parent(s?)/Dad didn't look for him, but according to the articles I've read in the Lancaster New Era and Intelligencer Journal, (www.lancasteronline.com)
he had friends who were concerned and looking. However, no one ever filed a missing persons report, so who knows.
I just wanted to let you know that people here haven't forgotten about him. We're disgusted by this. :(
 
sharon25 said:
I wonder how many "moyer"s there are in lancaster county?QUOTE]


I am checking my phone book for that answer. There are 242 Moyers listed in my white pages for Lancaster County.
 
JerseyGirl said:
Is there something in the water? The two stories are not just "common" murder but bizarre, teen-aged lover's triangles sorts of scenarios. I'm not familiar with Lancaster County other than the Pennsylvania Dutch & Amish populations being there. I'm not sure how intermingled "normal" society is. It's a beautiful yet strange place; I don't know what the dynamics are like there.



Sorry for all the posts on this today, but since I live here I can answer these. It's NOT a strange place. It's just a normal community that happens to have some strange crimes many years apart. The Laurie Show murder was in 91, I believe, and the girl/woman who killed her is STILL fighting to get out of prison. There is absolutely no evidence to back up her claims of sexual abuse by officers (especially since the main officer she accused was in Virginia on his honeymoon at the time and presented proof in court) and she's just grasping at straws.
There are still some unsolved cases here, such as the death of Christy Mirack, a teacher who was raped and killed in her home around the time that Laurie died. But it's not unsolved for lack of trying. And it isn't a high crime area where people are afraid to walk out of their homes.
Lancaster County is much more than Amish, Mennonite, and two cases of murder.
 
Bobbisangel said:
I don't know what type of a kid Jonnie was but there are kids...teens...that no matter what rules you have in your home the kid refuses to follow them.
This is not uncommon in this day and age. I know because I am raising one.
It's easy to say what a person would or should do but you really have to stand in the other person's shoes before you make a judgment. I know quite a few parents/grandparents that are raising teens today and it is not a easy thing to do. Some kids are just so strong willed that they are going to live their life the way they want regardless.

We don't know the family or what their lives were like. For all we know the dad could very well be a loving father and wanted the best for his son and Jonnie may have wanted to do things his way and it created problems. It's so easy to lay the blame on the parents but in reality it isn't always that the parents are bad parents. Reading what the young people on that thread had to say it sounds like we are reading a lot into a situation that may have not been at all like is being suggested.
Bobbisangel, I definitely see what you're saying, but I HAVE stood in their shoes. I spent the first eleven years of my life being repeatedly abused by my sibling...

I understand there are some kids that are bad kids. BUT, it is the parent's responsibility until that child is 18 years old to know where that child is. My parents finally got their acts together, and had to commit my sibling to an institution for the protection of myself and my younger siblings, (whom weren't hated as much as I was - maybe because they're a lot younger), as well as for the protection of the psycho that was responsible for all of this in the first place. They didn't want to do it but they had no other choice. My sibling was almost 14 when the decision was finally made.

If Jonnie WAS a bad kid, maybe his parents hadn't gotten to the point that my family finally had. Maybe they didn't have the same degree of trouble or warning signs. But the bottom line is still that he was 17 years old, and at the very least, a missing persons report should have been filed. Had my sibling disappeared, I probably would NOT have filed a missing persons report, (and might still not although I try to forgive & forget), but my parents would have and DID on many occassions. I don't see how it can be true that his parents were good parents, and that they loved him very much if this is the end result of his life & their relationships. Once in a great, great while you will find a person that seems bad by nature. Most often, however, these people are made. As much as my parents regret it, they came to realize that they created my sibling and the behavior problems by their earlier inaction. Yes, they loved my sibling very much but no - they were not good parents when it mattered, and that's how our crisis began in the first place. So maybe Jonnie's parents loved him very much. Or maybe they were good parents. But I suspect that they weren't both.

ETA: I am also raising a difficult teenager right now so I can totally sympathize with those that also are.
 

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