PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

[Lord_Chatterly]

Yes, he had non-prescription sunglasses with him.

Well, if you are released from Lewisburg, there are not many ways to get out. Somebody can pick you up or you can take the bus.

from Lewisburg, there are not many ways to get out. Somebody can pick you up or you can take the bus

And so it goes for RFG ... not many ways to get out of Lewisburg.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

from Lewisburg, there are not many ways to get out. Somebody can pick you up or you can take the bus

And so it goes for RFG ... not many ways to get out of Lewisburg.

He had a third option, acquiring a vehicle. Most people being released from LFP don't have that option.

BTW: I've ruled out stealing one.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

He had a third option, acquiring a vehicle. Most people being released from LFP don't have that option.

BTW: I've ruled out stealing one.

This is the option that does two things:

1) Somebody else knows about this. Some record of sale, the 'straw deal' that has been discussed, or a rental, under someone else's name.

2) This supports the 'metallic' car that was witnessed at the courthouse, aka the Fenton sighting.

These two go together. They work from what we know, and allows a plausible way for RFG to get out of Lewisburg.
I have found this so intriguing just how there is no trace at all of any of this...especially with someone out there who DOES know about it. Ok, thanks...just some thinking out loud !!!

PS: I like the 'bus' theory...ok, ok...I know it's leaving in 10 minutes...lol

 

[J. J. in Phila]

This is the option that does two things:

1) Somebody else knows about this. Some record of sale, the 'straw deal' that has been discussed, or a rental, under someone else's name.

2) This supports the 'metallic' car that was witnessed at the courthouse, aka the Fenton sighting.

These two go together. They work from what we know, and allows a plausible way for RFG to get out of Lewisburg.
I have found this so intriguing just how there is no trace at all of any of this...especially with someone out there who DOES know about it. Ok, thanks...just some thinking out loud !!!

PS: I like the 'bus' theory...ok, ok...I know it's leaving in 10 minutes...lol

First, the "bus theory" is possible, at least, if RFG could blend in with other passengers.

The police claimed they checked public transit and that they checked rentals. A rental would be on his credit card, if he used a card under his name.

The police have never said that they looked at all rentals, car purchases in Lewisburg, or those of his friends and associates.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

First, the "bus theory" is possible, at least, if RFG could blend in with other passengers.

The police claimed they checked public transit and that they checked rentals. A rental would be on his credit card, if he used a card under his name.

The police have never said that they looked at all rentals, car purchases in Lewisburg, or those of his friends and associates.

One of the reasons I have brought up the 'bus theory' is that from my own experience, I had traveled by bus from a job I had many years ago. The bus line was somewhat like the Susquehanna Trailways line...nice comfy ride, and the ride allowed one some sense of privacy...even with the mix of folks, and somewhat sparsely ridden route, it was easy not to be 'noticed', if you know what I mean. I could feel invisible as to others, keeping to myself. At the end of a long day, one doesn't want to be bothered much at all, so that sense of anonymity was easy. Of course, I didn't have anyone asking questions of me later or the chance for that . I think the feel of a charter style bus allowed for that. Also, if the walkaway theory, now nobody knows anything. No collusion, no nothing.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One of the reasons I have brought up the 'bus theory' is that from my own experience, I had traveled by bus from a job I had many years ago. The bus line was somewhat like the Susquehanna Trailways line...nice comfy ride, and the ride allowed one some sense of privacy...even with the mix of folks, and somewhat sparsely ridden route, it was easy not to be 'noticed', if you know what I mean. I could feel invisible as to others, keeping to myself. At the end of a long day, one doesn't want to be bothered much at all, so that sense of anonymity was easy. Of course, I didn't have anyone asking questions of me later or the chance for that . I think the feel of a charter style bus allowed for that. Also, if the walkaway theory, now nobody knows anything. No collusion, no nothing.

It is possible, but it runs a high risk. The person sitting next to him, or across the aisle, may remember him. So might the driver or the people where he got off. Considering the publicity on the case, eventually someone might remember (and perhaps someone has).

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I hopped a freight train with friends when I was a teen back in the day.

Burlington RR long ago during the depression made it legal to ride the rail anywhere. Unfortunately I was underage and got nabbed.

but if you have a shortwave you can actually know which train to get on...we rode in brand new trucks on top of a 3 level piggyback car. The keys were in the dash and you could turn on the radio and rock out.

the train yards were soup kitchens and you could buy cigarettes...no one would bother you, but they were on the lookout for me and got me right away at that first stop.


this was a very long time ago...I wonder how much has changed...

...maybe they don't leave the keys in the ignitions since then ? What a great story ...LMAO !!!

 

[SeekingJana]

To blend in on a bus, RG, in my mind, would probably be dressed in jeans, wearing tennis shoes and maybe a sweatshirt and light jacket.. Maybe rumple it all up a bit... Don't look like GQ material. His sunglasses.. I definitely think a person getting on a bus would need a duffel bag or a back pack type bag or they are going to look strange. Come to think of it, just a plain brown paper large grocery type bag.. That's the kind of thing I saw at my local Greyhound terminal a few years ago.. Drive by at the right time, and you could see a virtual slice of underprivileged America.. I even saw boxes held together with twine..
And no, I wasn't staring, I am extremely observant.

I think he had the cash he needed plus food and water with him for the duration of the trip.

We don't know that he didn't have a change of clothing in the Mini trunk on the AM he drove to Lewisburg. Patti F may be smart, but she couldn't know what he might have bought for a period of a few months to a year piece by piece.
A smarter thing to do would be to take old items out of his wearing wardrobe until they were forgotten, then put into a nondescript bag and threw the bag in his car on his way out of town. You see anything and everything at a bus station. RME.
Also, I still maintain that if he was going a long way, he would stay as far under the radar as possible, meaning off= camera at any food stops, so he would take his own.

About WHO rides a bus-- Guys, in this day and age, usually lower income people ride a bus, not college students necessarily.
That means any age group. He would just need to leave the cashmere, Rolex, and Bally in his Bellefonte closet if he usually wore high-end classic clothing.

Now, I have to ask you-- if he did get on a bus,where did he go? As in, how far could he get and how fast? To a border? Then what did he do, or did he go into recluse mode inside the USA using an alias? What about the speculation regarding offshore or foreign bank accounts if he remained inside the USA?
Bus, train, car.. all only get him so far. Plane is another matter.

I'd really almost say " murdered" at this point but the laptop drop, the HD erasure and dumping, some things just point to walkaway to me no matter how hard I consider murder.
Besides, unless he was killed by an organized professional hit, then people DO talk. Or get caught on their next kill. Or their angry ex- girlfriends or former BILs or SOMEONE talks about what they know or saw or heard... Human nature.. You hurt, so you turn the creep who hurt you in..

JMO.
Maria

 

[SeekingJana]

...maybe they don't leave the keys in the ignitions since then ? What a great story ...LMAO !!!

I would have loved to do that too. Not on the lam, just for kicks.. when I was a bit younger, LOL.

 

[SeekingJana]

It is possible, but it runs a high risk. The person sitting next to him, or across the aisle, may remember him. So might the driver or the people where he got off. Considering the publicity on the case, eventually someone might remember (and perhaps someone has).

UNLESS it is a college town, honestly, J.J., we are talking "substance impaired" and otherwise " off the beam" type people for the most part.. Have you ever seen that site " The People Of Wal Mart"?
They just got off a passenger bus before they walked into Wal Mart. I am not kidding.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I would have loved to do that too. Not on the lam, just for kicks.. when I was a bit younger, LOL.

Minazoe got to me when the reference was made to "back in the day" ... I love that expression.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

To blend in on a bus, RG, in my mind, would probably be dressed in jeans, wearing tennis shoes and maybe a sweatshirt and light jacket.. Maybe rumple it all up a bit... Don't look like GQ material. His sunglasses.. I definitely think a person getting on a bus would need a duffel bag or a back pack type bag or they are going to look strange. Come to think of it, just a plain brown paper large grocery type bag.. That's the kind of thing I saw at my local Greyhound terminal a few years ago.. Drive by at the right time, and you could see a virtual slice of underprivileged America.. I even saw boxes held together with twine..
And no, I wasn't staring, I am extremely observant.

I think he had the cash he needed plus food and water with him for the duration of the trip.

We don't know that he didn't have a change of clothing in the Mini trunk on the AM he drove to Lewisburg. Patti F may be smart, but she couldn't know what he might have bought for a period of a few months to a year piece by piece.
A smarter thing to do would be to take old items out of his wearing wardrobe until they were forgotten, then put into a nondescript bag and threw the bag in his car on his way out of town. You see anything and everything at a bus station. RME.
Also, I still maintain that if he was going a long way, he would stay as far under the radar as possible, meaning off= camera at any food stops, so he would take his own.

About WHO rides a bus-- Guys, in this day and age, usually lower income people ride a bus, not college students necessarily.
That means any age group. He would just need to leave the cashmere, Rolex, and Bally in his Bellefonte closet if he usually wore high-end classic clothing.

Now, I have to ask you-- if he did get on a bus,where did he go? As in, how far could he get and how fast? To a border? Then what did he do, or did he go into recluse mode inside the USA using an alias? What about the speculation regarding offshore or foreign bank accounts if he remained inside the USA?
Bus, train, car.. all only get him so far. Plane is another matter.

I'd really almost say " murdered" at this point but the laptop drop, the HD erasure and dumping, some things just point to walkaway to me no matter how hard I consider murder.
Besides, unless he was killed by an organized professional hit, then people DO talk. Or get caught on their next kill. Or their angry ex- girlfriends or former BILs or SOMEONE talks about what they know or saw or heard... Human nature.. You hurt, so you turn the creep who hurt you in..

JMO.
Maria

From what I had read on the schedule, RFG could have made it to NYC on that bus line. Not sure if there would have been any connecting bus or buses, but it shows on the schedule. My guess, it would have been maybe a 3 to 4 hour trip. The bus runs on the I-80 corridor, which goes directly into NYC. I offer that out just as an example. Another would be to Lock Haven, which is only an hour and a half. Could have caught a plane from there. Piper Cub is my choice (made in Lock Haven...lol )

 

[SeekingJana]

My dad had a Piper Cub when I was a child. He scared the heck out of me-- did all kinds of things over our house to scare my mother, who hates to fly.
But yeah, Piper, Cessna, whatever.

This is kind of unusual for me... Apparently, a website that usually does not come up on a web search for the terms " Ray Gricar" just appeared in my searches.
I do not know who owns the site I linked below, or if it is simply a mirror site, but I didn't see anything negative about RG there. Thought I would post it if you are having as cold and rainy a weekend as I am..
We can never ever stop looking to the best of our abilities, even if it is from almost 1000 miles away. There may be new info somewhere. For example, I didn't know that Karen Arnold was preparing to go on a trip when RG disappeared. Also didn't know the first name of his second wife..

Also verified that the older small woman at the press conference was indeed BG, Lara's mother, and Patti's almost older sister. LOL.
https://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/home

 

[J. J. in Phila]

UNLESS it is a college town, honestly, J.J., we are talking "substance impaired" and otherwise " off the beam" type people for the most part.. Have you ever seen that site " The People Of Wal Mart"?
They just got off a passenger bus before they walked into Wal Mart. I am not kidding.

Usually not, because they are heading home and don't want to show up drunk or high (though that might be preferable with some families).

My only experience was on a train from Philadelphia to Harrisburg on a Friday in April of 1999. About 90% were 17-24. They were well behaved; there a few Goths, who were also well behaved. I was in my late 30's but I was still older than everyone else. There wasn't any sign of drinking or drugs.

If this were an interstate bus, e.g. Lewisburg to Miami, it might be different. I took the train to Florida this year and, yes, there were younger people, but there was more of a mix of ages. I wouldn't stand out out because of age.

Bucknell is in Lewisburg. It currently has student body of about 3,650. About 3,500 are undergraduates. The passengers on a Friday are going to be a bit younger than 59.

 

[SeekingJana]

Now, 'back in the day' when I rode the bus...I was not off the beam, or other-wise deluded, nor broke, nor non of that Other Stuff. That all happened just before I logged in here...L o L ~~~ !!!

Ha ha. Man, the sad sad stories I could tell you about Mental Health clients who were transients and arrived in the city from ??? by BUS. More than I can remember, and if you read up a bit on bus transportation, I think you will find that it is widely considered to be an unsavory means of long distance transportation. Local buses are a totally different situation, overall.
Probably makes a long distance bus line a very good choice for a person like RG!!! I absolutely think he knew that dear little grandmas with their knitting no longer visit their sisters via bus.. He knew how bus transit has devolved.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

From what I had read on the schedule, RFG could have made it to NYC on that bus line. Not sure if there would have been any connecting bus or buses, but it shows on the schedule. My guess, it would have been maybe a 3 to 4 hour trip. The bus runs on the I-80 corridor, which goes directly into NYC. I offer that out just as an example. Another would be to Lock Haven, which is only an hour and a half. Could have caught a plane from there. Piper Cub is my choice (made in Lock Haven...lol )

Playing Devil's Advocate again, the only problem I have is keeping the pilot quiet. After you suggested it, I tried to see if any any had a pilot's license, but I didn't find any.

There was a $15 K reward, and a "contracted helper" could have come forward and said, **I flew (or drove) Ray Gricar to ____,** and claimed the reward. Walking away is perfectly legal and so is helping someone walk away. If it were me, I would have been singing like a canary, unless I had more than $15 K to keep quiet.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A while back, I came up with the possibility, or profile, of a "helper." Here is what I came up with:

1. The helper would have to be trustworthy. He/she wouldn't take a payoff and not show up. He/she wouldn't get RFG alone and kill or rob him.

2. The helper would be loyal. He/she wouldn't claim the reward. He/she would not feel sorry for LG and break down and tell.

3. The helper would be proximate. He/she would be close enough to pick RFG up in Lewisburg and not be unaccounted for for a few days.

Now, that eliminates a few people, and LE was looking at some of them that it hasn't.

LG, and the rest of Gricar family, would be eliminated for proximity reasons.

 

[Bellaneph]

Additional thoughts on the "helper." For all we know, some of the reason why Ray wanted to dispose of the hard drive was some evidence of the existence of this "helper." Maybe they corresponded by e-mail or IM. If Ray was planning to leave he might have investigated "helpers" long before hand and took them up on the offer the day he disappeared. Maybe it was a group of "helpers" like the underground RR, since you guys fancy railroads. lol

If that's the case, I would think that they would know the heat would be on and he couldn't stay long with the person(s); just long enough to get him set up somewhere else and send him on his way. For all we know, the "other woman" was married or something and just helping him. Who knows? Maybe he spent the first night on her couch and then someone got uncomfortable with all the people looking for him, so he slept in the (metallic?) car the next night and then bought a car and left. Maybe he paid her to use her car to drive out of town and left it somewhere and she rented a car for herself and picked up her car. And after that, he was mostly on his own.

With all the attention, especially if you're involved in something - which may not be illegal - but could bring enormous public negativity your way, the "helper" just might not have thought the 15k was worth it; especially if she had some affinity towards Ray and wouldn't want to have betrayed him.

 

[SeekingJana]

A while back, I came up with the possibility, or profile, of a "helper." Here is what I came up with:

1. The helper would have to be trustworthy. He/she wouldn't take a payoff and not show up. He/she wouldn't get RFG alone and kill or rob him.

2. The helper would be loyal. He/she wouldn't claim the reward. He/she would not feel sorry for LG and break down and tell.

3. The helper would be proximate. He/she would be close enough to pick RFG up in Lewisburg and not be unaccounted for for a few days.

Now, that eliminates a few people, and LE was looking at some of them that it hasn't.

LG, and the rest of Gricar family, would be eliminated for proximity reasons.

Ya know, I would be a helper like RG needed for ANY of my friends who aren't married and don't have children at home. I would see it as their RIGHT to leave on the sly..

I think all he needed was a like- minded person who could keep their mouths shut, stay under the radar, and for Goid's sake, if questioned by LE, refuse to take a polygraph on the excuse that they are unreliable, etc.
I bet either one of us wishes we had been " the one". Then we would know, not be here wondering.. hoping..

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Additional thoughts on the "helper." For all we know, some of the reason why Ray wanted to dispose of the hard drive was some evidence of the existence of this "helper." Maybe they corresponded by e-mail or IM. If Ray was planning to leave he might have investigated "helpers" long before hand and took them up on the offer the day he disappeared. Maybe it was a group of "helpers" like the underground RR, since you guys fancy railroads. lol

The laptop is problematic. We know RFG wanted to get rid of the data on the drive about a year before he disappeared. We know he researched destroying the drive. He may have just brought the laptop to Lewisburg, with that intent, but was planning to get a replacement drive. Want to keep personal data , e.g. credit card numbers, secret, isn't unusual.

If that's the case, I would think that they would know the heat would be on and he couldn't stay long with the person(s); just long enough to get him set up somewhere else and send him on his way. For all we know, the "other woman" was married or something and just helping him. Who knows? Maybe he spent the first night on her couch and then someone got uncomfortable with all the people looking for him, so he slept in the (metallic?) car the next night and then bought a car and left. Maybe he paid her to use her car to drive out of town and left it somewhere and she rented a car for herself and picked up her car. And after that, he was mostly on his own.

With all the attention, especially if you're involved in something - which may not be illegal - but could bring enormous public negativity your way, the "helper" just might not have thought the 15k was worth it; especially if she had some affinity towards Ray and wouldn't want to have betrayed him.

I think the helper could have retained anonymity.