PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

[J. J. in Phila]

I won't comment on the appearance of either woman. I will say BG is exceptionally well educated and well traveled.

I have always, always thought that RG surely wanted a beautiful, enticing, exciting girlfriend in a serious relationship instead of a plain Jane.
This is a man who chose a slightly nerdy but somewhat trendy red sports car and loved to drive fast. ( I can so identify with the driving a convertible fast. I do the same in my BMWs and before that, in my Sebring, and before that in my.. you get the idea). So, the car and statements about his driving joys let me know that he IS a bit of a risk taker, a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and that appearances DO matter to him...

Wife #2 was a vivacious blond who liked to dance; I think she was younger as well. RFG drove a Spider Convertible at the time. The marriage did not work out, and they had not spoken since the divorce.

 

[SeekingJana]

I won't comment on the appearance of either woman. I will say BG is exceptionally well educated and well traveled.



Wife #2 was a vivacious blond who liked to dance; I think she was younger as well. RFG drove a Spider Convertible at the time. The marriage did not work out, and they had not spoken since the divorce.

Bet 2nd divorce wasn't his choice unless she was a big spender.. JMO..

I had an Alfa Romeo Spider convertible once-- the special LE " Graduate" edition. I thought it was heavenly.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Although I'm not a "profiler", in a way, I am. What clients ( and people in general) say is not nearly as important to me as what is left unsaid most of the time, or the importance of body language. Over time when dealing with a client, I start to see patterns emerge.. to the point that I can often anticipate what they will say and how they will react next.. And what problems they are probably going to bring to me next. That's pretty much profiling..
Same thing here on WS. When people were saying C. Anthony would get the death penalty, I had serious doubts about a guilty verdict.. But with sentiment running so high, I didn't see that posting my doubts would help anyone, especially not me. I have very strong theories which do not fit " the popular theory" about a few other cases.. Since justice is not mine to decide, I keep my opinions to myself because there's no point in arguing. I hate contention.

So, over a period of years, I have come to believe certain things about Ray Gricar based upon my experience, and I have come to question certain other patterns he seems to have had in his personal life.

ONE of the main " WTF" moments for me was the first time, just a couple of months ago, when I saw PFo and BG's joint photo at an early press conference and instinctively knew that BG was not PFo's mother or sister..but the woman RG was married to for a long time.

I'm just going to come out and say it. I'm sure both women are smart, well- educated. I know they have had productive careers, etc.I am not judging this at all.
BUT, physically they almost look androgynous. Like boys.
I have always, always thought that RG surely wanted a beautiful, enticing, exciting girlfriend in a serious relationship instead of a plain Jane.
This is a man who chose a slightly nerdy but somewhat trendy red sports car and loved to drive fast. ( I can so identify with the driving a convertible fast. I do the same in my BMWs and before that, in my Sebring, and before that in my.. you get the idea). So, the car and statements about his driving joys let me know that he IS a bit of a risk taker, a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and that appearances DO matter to him...

I choose to think the young blond woman was someone Ray knew very well, and had fallen in love with.

JJ, I guess now is a good time to refresh my " Finding love with the person of one's dreams on the Internet" theory. I KNOW it happens. I know it can be a very strong personal relationship before the two people meet in person. Maybe RG met her on the Internet ( and I don't mean some sex site either) or maybe he knew her in his daily life.. We don't know yet.

BTW, not sure if any of you have experienced being committed to and living with one person and loving someone new and exciting, but the emotional roller coaster will definitely cause changes in attitude, and maybe-- changes in latitude.

Edited to add: I don't have the gut feeling that she was a lure to his death. That would imply that Ray Gricar could not spot a sociopath. I believe he would see right through an insincere person. I don't think she was from PA, nor that she lived in his area. Again, just a got feeling.. It's all good vibes for now...

Now one must account for his being withdrawn prior to going missing, and how visibly down when seen walking in the park with PEF on a day prior to his disappearance. Of course, he could not show exuberation, or something would truly be wrong. He may have been a good actor through his final days with work, and those closest to him. I guess for now, we just have to let this simmer a bit. Something is coming...more of a break...just something I feel.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Now one must account for his being withdrawn prior to going missing, and how visibly down when seen walking in the park with PEF on a day prior to his disappearance. Of course, he could not show exuberation, or something would truly be wrong. He may have been a good actor through his final days with work, and those closest to him. I guess for now, we just have to let this simmer a bit. Something is coming...more of a break...just something I feel.

Well, the "depressed" comment was a characterization. That walk in the park seemed to have occurred between 5:30 PM and 6:00 PM. RFG had been at a Prison Board Meeting that began at about 8:00 AM. He'd been out driving and had returned to the office that afternoon. Then he was out walking.

He might have just been tired. [/Devil's Advocate]

Now, that would not have explained his unusual mood in the prior weeks.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Well, the "depressed" comment was a characterization. That walk in the park seemed to have occurred between 5:30 PM and 6:00 PM. RFG had been at a Prison Board Meeting that began at about 8:00 AM. He'd been out driving and had returned to the office that afternoon. Then he was out walking.

He might have just been tired. [/Devil's Advocate]

Now, that would not have explained his unusual mood in the prior weeks.

Yes, and was that also the same day he drove to Raystown ? There seemed to have been something peculiar about that, as well. What is known of that trip ? Was the Mini spotted there that day as well ? Or is the Raystown episode not as significant? Sorry, lots of questions there, I don't have much of that information to recall.

 

[Pensfan]

Although I'm not a "profiler", in a way, I am. What clients ( and people in general) say is not nearly as important to me as what is left unsaid most of the time, or the importance of body language. Over time when dealing with a client, I start to see patterns emerge.. to the point that I can often anticipate what they will say and how they will react next.. And what problems they are probably going to bring to me next. That's pretty much profiling..
Same thing here on WS. When people were saying C. Anthony would get the death penalty, I had serious doubts about a guilty verdict.. But with sentiment running so high, I didn't see that posting my doubts would help anyone, especially not me. I have very strong theories which do not fit " the popular theory" about a few other cases.. Since justice is not mine to decide, I keep my opinions to myself because there's no point in arguing. I hate contention.

So, over a period of years, I have come to believe certain things about Ray Gricar based upon my experience, and I have come to question certain other patterns he seems to have had in his personal life.

ONE of the main " WTF" moments for me was the first time, just a couple of months ago, when I saw PFo and BG's joint photo at an early press conference and instinctively knew that BG was not PFo's mother or sister..but the woman RG was married to for a long time.

I'm just going to come out and say it. I'm sure both women are smart, well- educated. I know they have had productive careers, etc.I am not judging this at all.
BUT, physically they almost look androgynous. Like boys.
I have always, always thought that RG surely wanted a beautiful, enticing, exciting girlfriend in a serious relationship instead of a plain Jane.
This is a man who chose a slightly nerdy but somewhat trendy red sports car and loved to drive fast. ( I can so identify with the driving a convertible fast. I do the same in my BMWs and before that, in my Sebring, and before that in my.. you get the idea). So, the car and statements about his driving joys let me know that he IS a bit of a risk taker, a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and that appearances DO matter to him...

I choose to think the young blond woman was someone Ray knew very well, and had fallen in love with.

JJ, I guess now is a good time to refresh my " Finding love with the person of one's dreams on the Internet" theory. I KNOW it happens. I know it can be a very strong personal relationship before the two people meet in person. Maybe RG met her on the Internet ( and I don't mean some sex site either) or maybe he knew her in his daily life.. We don't know yet.

BTW, not sure if any of you have experienced being committed to and living with one person and loving someone new and exciting, but the emotional roller coaster will definitely cause changes in attitude, and maybe-- changes in latitude.

Edited to add: I don't have the gut feeling that she was a lure to his death. That would imply that Ray Gricar could not spot a sociopath. I believe he would see right through an insincere person. I don't think she was from PA, nor that she lived in his area. Again, just a got feeling.. It's all good vibes for now...

My first thought after seeing the photo with the RG's ex-wife and the girlfriend in that photo was that infertility likely was not the reason that RG didn't produce any biological offspring.

Some men who serially select androgynous-looking women as partners do not see female physical characteristics as important because they are not sexually aroused by female characteristics. Others may be heterosexual, but have a low libido and their mate possessing female sexual characteristics is not that important to them.

RG had a good paying job with respect and an important title. If he wanted a leggy blonde, he could have easily found one in State College with those characteristics alone. I don't think he had to disappear to be with an physically attractive female.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, and was that also the same day he drove to Raystown ? There seemed to have been something peculiar about that, as well. What is known of that trip ? Was the Mini spotted there that day as well ? Or is the Raystown episode not as significant? Sorry, lots of questions there, I don't have much of that information to recall.

I have no idea if the Lake Raystown trip is significant or not.

The Mini was spotted by a boat landing there. He was there around 10:30-11:00 AM. The closest landing was about an hour's drive for a regular person, so he could have made it in less time. The meeting ended after 8:45 AM and he could have easily made it even to the far end of the lake by that time.

The witness was a doctor.

RFG might have driven back in the mid-afternoon.

 

[Pensfan]

Minis are rare in central and western Pa. (It is likely related to winter driving. The average snowfall is around 48 inches/year in State College and it usually all falls within two months.)

If he planned to disappear with that blonde, I don't think he have sat with her in that red mini cooper. Minis attract a lot of attention.

 

[SeekingJana]

My first thought after seeing the photo with the RG's ex-wife and the girlfriend in that photo was that infertility likely was not the reason that RG didn't produce any biological offspring.

Some men who serially select androgynous-looking women as partners do not see female physical characteristics as important because they are not sexually aroused by female characteristics. Others may be heterosexual, but have a low libido and their mate possessing female sexual characteristics is not that important to them.

RG had a good paying job with respect and an important title. If he wanted a leggy blonde, he could have easily found one in State College with those characteristics alone. I don't think he had to disappear to be with an physically attractive female.

I agree with the first part of your post and disagree with the part about money and picking up leggy blondes.

For some reason, the photos of RG always screamed " Metrosexual" to me.. Not a rugged he- man type in any way.. I think I find the look very unintimidating for a DA but have never been attracted to the type in a personal way. Maybe because I'm 6 ft. in heels, LOL. RF doesn't swim well, isn't known to hunt or even own a gun, and wanted to stay home and be a house husband when Lara was a child.. just NOT extremely traditionally masculine.
It's kind of freaky to me to see photos of him with PF. They look more like bro and sis to me than lovers. I think she pursued him and he figured it was more convenient than living alone.. period.

Maybe he chose BG because they were young and she was cute back then. Or maybe he is attracted to super- intelligent women over physical attibutes. But I tend to think that maybe super sexy women might intimidate him.. in usual face to face settings.

I saw photos of wife 2 on Facebook, and she's ordinary IMO, but is certainly prettier than #1 or PFo.

RG may have " dated" many pretty women, but how many long- lasting relationships can an adult in later mid- life really expect to find and cultivate? Remember, the attraction has to be mutual! The blond bombshell has to care for him in return.
IMO, RG was not looking for another woman. He was probably settled into a routine with PF that didn't require much effort.
That's the main reason I tend to think he started corresponding with someone online for a period of months.. Not planned.. but developed into something serious intellectually and emotionally. And they exchanged the types of photos we see on Facebook at some point. Maybe it all started when he asked a question on a message board about a hobby or some other shared interest.. Like me or you messaging another WS member we want to talk with more, and things developing from this site... It has happened... Online accidental attractions which evolve into love happen all the time. I have at least 5 friends on Facebook who have had affairs with other friends of mine whom they re-discovered from our years in HS.. It's FREAKY but it really does happen. I have 2 former classmates who recently married after each raising their families and expecting first grandchildren after Facebook suggestd they be friends.They hadn't seen each other since HS graduation.. never ever dated.. but fell in love through Facebook interactions, then dates.

Two people with a shared interest ( and boring or unhappy personal lives) start sharing online convos about their shared hobby, intersts, political views or whatever. A friendship develops, and as trust increases, ONE of them at least starts sharing personal thoughts and reveals some interesting personal details, little by little.
The other person is intrigued, then both find themselves CARING if the other person texts them that day or emails them on their lunch hour every day.. A relationship is developing.. both are attracted to the other for months, perhaps, or even a year or so before they actually meet. The feelings of love and caring can be extremely real and also very painful, depending upon the circumstances.

OR the blonde woman coming to light could be a person from Ray's distant past whom he looked up on the Internet or through another type of search.. Or she looked him up. We just don't know yet, but either they shared a romantic past together and he felt safe because of that link, or they spent a very long time talking, emailing, and getting to know each other. Of course he ran a complete background check. That's SOP, and he, of all people, would know to do so.

Has anyone ever checked to see if Ray Gricar had a MySpace account? I know it sounds stupid, but he might have had... My doctor did. LOL.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay, if it was an online relationship, why not just move out? RFG has no legal commitment to PEF. He certainly isn't depending on her for money. [/da]

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Minis are rare in central and western Pa. (It is likely related to winter driving. The average snowfall is around 48 inches/year in State College and it usually all falls within two months.)

If he planned to disappear with that blonde, I don't think he have sat with her in that red mini cooper. Minis attract a lot of attention.

Well, the Mini was left in the parking lot.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Okay, if it was an online relationship, why not just move out? RFG has no legal commitment to PEF. He certainly isn't depending on her for money. [/da]

1). In a grand sense of the word, RFG did move out.

2). Having been declared dead this past year, RFG now
has NO legal commitment to anyone.

3). And we have all been wondering about the money.
Maybe the Blonde has some money !!!

Sorry, just being double D/A for a minute. :wink:

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I agree with the first part of your post and disagree with the part about money and picking up leggy blondes.

For some reason, the photos of RG always screamed " Metrosexual" to me.. Not a rugged he- man type in any way.. I think I find the look very unintimidating for a DA but have never been attracted to the type in a personal way. Maybe because I'm 6 ft. in heels, LOL. RF doesn't swim well, isn't known to hunt or even own a gun, and wanted to stay home and be a house husband when Lara was a child.. just NOT extremely traditionally masculine.
It's kind of freaky to me to see photos of him with PF. They look more like bro and sis to me than lovers. I think she pursued him and he figured it was more convenient than living alone.. period.

Maybe he chose BG because they were young and she was cute back then. Or maybe he is attracted to super- intelligent women over physical attibutes. But I tend to think that maybe super sexy women might intimidate him.. in usual face to face settings.

I saw photos of wife 2 on Facebook, and she's ordinary IMO, but is certainly prettier than #1 or PFo.

RG may have " dated" many pretty women, but how many long- lasting relationships can an adult in later mid- life really expect to find and cultivate? Remember, the attraction has to be mutual! The blond bombshell has to care for him in return.
IMO, RG was not looking for another woman. He was probably settled into a routine with PF that didn't require much effort.
That's the main reason I tend to think he started corresponding with someone online for a period of months.. Not planned.. but developed into something serious intellectually and emotionally. And they exchanged the types of photos we see on Facebook at some point. Maybe it all started when he asked a question on a message board about a hobby or some other shared interest.. Like me or you messaging another WS member we want to talk with more, and things developing from this site... It has happened... Online accidental attractions which evolve into love happen all the time. I have at least 5 friends on Facebook who have had affairs with other friends of mine whom they re-discovered from our years in HS.. It's FREAKY but it really does happen. I have 2 former classmates who recently married after each raising their families and expecting first grandchildren after Facebook suggestd they be friends.They hadn't seen each other since HS graduation.. never ever dated.. but fell in love through Facebook interactions, then dates.

Two people with a shared interest ( and boring or unhappy personal lives) start sharing online convos about their shared hobby, intersts, political views or whatever. A friendship develops, and as trust increases, ONE of them at least starts sharing personal thoughts and reveals some interesting personal details, little by little.
The other person is intrigued, then both find themselves CARING if the other person texts them that day or emails them on their lunch hour every day.. A relationship is developing.. both are attracted to the other for months, perhaps, or even a year or so before they actually meet. The feelings of love and caring can be extremely real and also very painful, depending upon the circumstances.

OR the blonde woman coming to light could be a person from Ray's distant past whom he looked up on the Internet or through another type of search.. Or she looked him up. We just don't know yet, but either they shared a romantic past together and he felt safe because of that link, or they spent a very long time talking, emailing, and getting to know each other. Of course he ran a complete background check. That's SOP, and he, of all people, would know to do so.

Has anyone ever checked to see if Ray Gricar had a MySpace account? I know it sounds stupid, but he might have had... My doctor did. LOL.

You are so right about the connective power this Internet provides. One can so easily get caught up by it, and yes, those relationships can evolve quite powerfully. Perhaps the laptop had IM connections, or the like. Could explain his 'hype' to erase or destroy the laptop drive. His concerns to PF would be it was because of 'work' related files...perhaps she had her suspicions along the way.

 

[minazoe]

He kept it at home.

it still could have been missing...just catching up .

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Did anyone ever consider that RFG could have had a child to another woman at one time that nobody knew about, even RFG himself, until some later time ? Like this Lewisburg Young Blonde (which I shall now make official reference as the LYB ...lol ). RFG seemed to have some connection with Lewisburg, even if just the antique shopping. Just a thought...what do you think ?

 

[minazoe]

I think it is a very far reach to imagine Ray running away with anyone...

running and hiding? from a woman scorned?

no way.

unless...he knocked up a girl and didn't want to emotionally destroy his adopted daughter and live in ( paramour) .

still, like I said zillions of men do it every day...I don't know if I even beleive Patty when she says Ray was sleeping a lot...

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I have no idea if the Lake Raystown trip is significant or not.

The Mini was spotted by a boat landing there. He was there around 10:30-11:00 AM. The closest landing was about an hour's drive for a regular person, so he could have made it in less time. The meeting ended after 8:45 AM and he could have easily made it even to the far end of the lake by that time.

The witness was a doctor.

RFG might have driven back in the mid-afternoon.

Thanks. Your explanation is concise, and helped me better understand what happened on that day (4-14). To me, not much seemed to have been emphasized about that particular day. That helps to get some better thinking going here (on my end...lol)

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Hello to All. This is to confirm the Post from last night's discussion. Hope this is a help for verification. The link as follows:

http://www.ccnnews8.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3311:new-details-on-missing-da&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=74

Now we have the Lewisburg Young Blonde (LYB) sighting. Ok, LE, what do you think NOW ?

Add: Refer to Post #677 here on WS Page 28 for the full version.

 

[AllisonS]

I was able to get right to the article, no subscription. Did you get to it through PressDisplay ? Yes, this all went down just days ago, and I am surprised more of this has not come out yet. Your comment of cigarette smoke in the mini to cover up perfume may prove to be just right !!! In any regard, this will be something to watch for. I had heard of the 'other Mini's' before, however, the young blonde contact is Way Up There, moreso than the alleged dark haired LMW at the SOS. Let's see what plays out...hehe

I was able to get right to the article too. I've lurked on this case for several years and found this very thought provoking. After reading the witness' comments, I have to wonder how many other people out there have information and think that it doesn't matter, or think that they don't want to interfere with him running off to start a new life with a hot young thing?

 

[AllisonS]

BTW, not sure if any of you have experienced being committed to and living with one person and loving someone new and exciting, but the emotional roller coaster will definitely cause changes in attitude, and maybe-- changes in latitude.

ITA that someone in a new and exciting love relationship would display changes in attitude and behavior.

While we have heard some comments from co-workers about some changes in his demeanor, we haven't really heard that from Patty. If you were living with someone and they were going through all the attitude changes that a new relationship brings, wouldn't you be the one to notice it the most...even if they tried to hide it? So this tells me that either the attitude changes weren't there; Patty didn't want to acknowledge them/tried to hide it during the investigation; or maybe she wasn't as invested in everything as much as she let on, and therefore didn't really notice before the disappearance happened (other than saying he was sleeping a lot more)? Just thinking it through from all directions.