PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

[Lord_Chatterly]

I was able to get right to the article too. I've lurked on this case for several years and found this very thought provoking. After reading the witness' comments, I have to wonder how many other people out there have information and think that it doesn't matter, or think that they don't want to interfere with him running off to start a new life with a hot young thing?

Thanks Allison. I finally found a viable link (in my above Post here today). We had a time with it here last night, and I just hope this does provide a 'Positive' outcome, or resolution to this case. As best you can, try to read back on the discussion, from my "Long Version", which you had read (Post #677) onward.

Yes, just how many Others are there to step up...I mean, valid and trustworthy witnesses, not just ones who may try to add sensationalism to this perplexing disappearance. Appreciate your input ~!!!

 

[AllisonS]

Okay, if it was an online relationship, why not just move out? RFG has no legal commitment to PEF. He certainly isn't depending on her for money. [/da]

Maybe it wasn't on online love relationship. Even though she was blond and young, she could have been only a business contact or someone who did him harm or was working with someone who did him harm. Maybe he hired her to help him get out of town or someone else hired her to meet up with him. It's possible he did meet her online, but perhaps he met with her only as a liaison for the plans he was making, more as a business affair than a personal one.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

ITA that someone in a new and exciting love relationship would display changes in attitude and behavior.

While we have heard some comments from co-workers about some changes in his demeanor, we haven't really heard that from Patty. If you were living with someone and they were going through all the attitude changes that a new relationship brings, wouldn't you be the one to notice it the most...even if they tried to hide it? So this tells me that either the attitude changes weren't there; Patty didn't want to acknowledge them/tried to hide it during the investigation; or maybe she wasn't as invested in everything as much as she let on, and therefore didn't really notice before the disappearance happened? Just thinking it through from all directions.

And if you recall, LE did not report either to the Gricar family nor the media of the 'original' LMW, the one he had been seen 'shopping' with at the SOS. It was not till days later that LE revealed that to PF and the family, so as not to create unnecessary hurt back onto PF. I wonder if LE possibly knew of this now 'New' Lewisburg Young Blonde back then. In this new article, Ivy Butterworth presented herself to the producers of Dateline, not through LE ! Perhaps originally she HAD been questioned by LE, but LE dropped the ball. Who knows...lots to play out here, for sure.

Not to engage in PF bashing, but the emotional trama she has gone through, she could have been in shock that she did not 'know' herself. Anyway, thanks again.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Hello to All. This is to confirm the Post from last night's discussion. Hope this is a help for verification. The link as follows:

http://www.ccnnews8.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3311:new-details-on-missing-da&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=74

Now we have the Lewisburg Young Blonde (LYB) sighting. Ok, LE, what do you think NOW ?

Add: Refer to Post #677 here on WS Page 28 for the full version.

We still don't have the time and there is the possibility it was someone else. It it is Friday evening, this becomes very interesting.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe it wasn't on online love relationship. Even though she was blond and young, she could have been only a business contact or someone who did him harm or was working with someone who did him harm. Maybe he hired her to help him get out of town or someone else hired her to meet up with him. It's possible he did meet her online, but perhaps he met with her only as a liaison for the plans he was making, more as a business affair than a personal one.

Except for business contact, all are possible.

 

[cindyc]

Good Afternoon All,

I may be a little late to the party, but felt I just had to comment. I happened to be in the area the day Ray Gricar disappeared and it fascinates me that no one knows what happened. I covered that area as a sales territory extensively and a red Mini Cooper, or any Mini Cooper still sticks out like a sore thumb to this day. It's hard to believe that someone would not have noticed more!

As someone who has been labeled a "paramour" in the Centre County Courthouse herself, I have also been perplexed by the use of this word. I am wondering if it is just a common word used in the Centre County courts.

I am married to a man who was a long time Penn State employee, who became separated from his previous wife in 2003. I met him in August of '05, long after his separation from his wife. In fact, he had dated someone else prior to meeting me for approximately a year. In 2006, he relocated to another area of Central PA to live with me.

At a hearing in the Centre County courts pertaining to distribution of marital assets in 2008, I was refered to a his "paramour" by his ex-wife's divorce attorney. The word is certainly not used commonly. Even my husband- who has an MS and PhD- had never heard it before, but I knew the definfition and took it as an insult. I'm not even sure my husband's ex-wife knew the meaning, unless her attorney had explained the meaning to her and this was just an attempt to get me riled up. After reading about the use of the word here, I'm just wondering if it is a word that is common in Centre County for some peculiar reason.

I hope this helps as far as why PEF may have been refered to as a "paramour". I guess my explanation is that it is a Centre County colloquiallism. In my opinion it is offensive, but I have had worse said about me.

CindyC

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

We still don't have the time and there is the possibility it was someone else. It it is Friday evening, this becomes very interesting.

Why Friday as opposed to Saturday ? Saturday could carry implications he may have done an over-nighter with her already. Either day, I think it plays out as very interesting.

I agree with you on the time and possibility of being someone else.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Good Afternoon All,

I may be a little late to the party, but felt I just had to comment. I happened to be in the area the day Ray Gricar disappeared and it fascinates me that no one knows what happened. I covered that area as a sales territory extensively and a red Mini Cooper, or any Mini Cooper still sticks out like a sore thumb to this day. It's hard to believe that someone would not have noticed more!

As someone who has been labeled a "paramour" in the Centre County Courthouse herself, I have also been perplexed by the use of this word. I am wondering if it is just a common word used in the Centre County courts.

I am married to a man who was a long time Penn State employee, who became separated from his previous wife in 2003. I met him in August of '05, long after his separation from his wife. In fact, he had dated someone else prior to meeting me for approximately a year. In 2006, he relocated to another area of Central PA to live with me.

At a hearing in the Centre County courts pertaining to distribution of marital assets in 2008, I was refered to a his "paramour" by his ex-wife's divorce attorney. The word is certainly not used commonly. Even my husband- who has an MS and PhD- had never heard it before, but I knew the definfition and took it as an insult. I'm not even sure my husband's ex-wife knew the meaning, unless her attorney had explained the meaning to her and this was just an attempt to get me riled up. After reading about the use of the word here, I'm just wondering if it is a word that is common in Centre County for some peculiar reason.

I hope this helps as far as why PEF may have been refered to as a "paramour". I guess my explanation is that it is a Centre County colloquiallism. In my opinion it is offensive, but I have had worse said about me.

CindyC

I had come across this term only having been here amongst the Chattering Class...and found the term repulsive, too. I don't think Centre County has the exclusive on the term. Seems like a 'legalese' lingo for the most part. In the legal field I believe it is a common reference point used to be just that---offensive to whom it may hurt.

 

[SeekingJana]

Definition of the archaic word " paramour" is " illicit lover".
You actually DID meet the definition of the word, and I'm sorry because I think it's a pompous term in this day and age.

Patty F. did not, unless she was married to someone else but separated and living with Ray. In which case, she could have been called a " Paramour" too.

 

[SeekingJana]

From dear Lord C's link today. This is the witness speaking who saw the blonde woman in the Mini. Mrs. Butterworth ( OMG, I am laughing typing this name) said to Dateline:...."Butterworth is also convinced Gricar and the woman ran off together and that he’s still alive somewhere."

I've found a reference ( don't ask me where because I didn't copy the link LOL) said she was a " big haired blonde".
I guess that means long fluffy hair as opposed to a short boyish cut, because no one has" big hair" any longer.

Dateline was NOT in Lewisburg to film about the woman... The Butterworth witness came forward WHILE they were there. So, why were they in Lewisburg and taping about Ray? PSU link?

Edited to remove incorrect info about Big haired woman's youth or lack thereof.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Why Friday as opposed to Saturday ? Saturday could carry implications he may have done an over-nighter with her already. Either day, I think it plays out as very interesting.

I agree with you on the time and possibility of being someone else.

Because she said it was 4/15/05, a Friday. (If it was Saturday, that would be important.)

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

From dear Lord C's link today. This is the witness speaking who saw the blonde woman in the Mini. Mrs. Butterworth ( OMG, I am laughing typing this name) said BLOND WOMAN, but not YOUNG blond woman.

I've found a reference ( don't ask me where because I didn't copy the link LOL) said she was a " big haired blonde".
I guess that means long fluffy hair as opposed to a short boyish cut, because no one has" big hair" any longer.


Also from the woman, AHEM...."Butterworth is also convinced Gricar and the woman ran off together and that he’s still alive somewhere."

Dateline was NOT in Lewisburg to film about the woman... The Butterworth witness came forward WHILE they were there. So, why were they in Lewisburg and taping about Ray? PSU link?

From the Full Text, Post #677 as follows :

Oh, I saw Gricar the day he disappeared,” she told Bennett, then walked over to the NBC producers. Butterworth, of Milton, said she saw a man she believed to be Gricar the day he disappeared in a car with a young blonde. .

 

[SeekingJana]

Okay, if it was an online relationship, why not just move out? RFG has no legal commitment to PEF. He certainly isn't depending on her for money. [/da]

They lived together for 3 years or so, and presented themselves as a cohabiting couple not only in social situations but also in the work place.I think Patti wanted to be with Ray a lot more than Ray wanted to be with Patti.. It has always struck me that she is the one who went out of her way to be " domestic".. Apparently, she even planned to quit work when he retired and " they were going to travel the country together and visit CA and the national parks.. Just take their time. ". HIS life was HER life in many ways.

Then, there is the evening Ray went missing, April 15. PFo started calling his cell phone at 5 PM or shortly afterwards. She called and called, and after getting voice mail a few times, called her brother. Instead of calling the police dept. and talking to one of the many people she knew there, she called 911. There was NO known emergency at that time except in her mind. And IMO, it was a misuse of 911 at that time.

IF the cell phone call marathon and 911 call doesn't give you a hint ( ) that PFo is a control freak who would not just let him walk away, then I don't know what would. I do not buy that she " just had a feeling that something was wrong".

What she was afraid of was that he was off playing around!! That's how women usually think.
I have found that there is a great deal of insecurity for most women I have dealt with professionally who were in a living arrangement that was not legally binding. They pretty much thought they weren't good enough to be " his wife" after a period of years. They worried about being replaced if they were of a certain age, like Patty F is.
Call it a stereotype, call it archaic, but some emotions have their roots in early human patterns that are not easy to change.
JMO, of course, as a female who hands out boxes of Kleenex to insecure women in a casual living arrangement on a regular basis. It's really difficult for them.

 

[cindyc]

No common law marriage in Pennsylvania!

 

[SeekingJana]

From the Full Text, Post #677 as follows :

Oh, I saw Gricar the day he disappeared,” she told Bennett, then walked over to the NBC producers. Butterworth, of Milton, said she saw a man she believed to be Gricar the day he disappeared in a car with a young blonde. .

Ahh, oohh. My bad, will edit my post... However, I wonder how old Mrs. Burtterworth is-- LOL again. :floorlaugh:

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Because she said it was 4/15/05, a Friday. (If it was Saturday, that would be important.)

Hmmm...I don't like Saturday. Why ? 'cause that's where your ratings fall off !!! Validity ratings below 50% on anything from 4-16 and after, remember ?

Ok, why would Saturday the 16th become important ? :wink:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No common law marriage in Pennsylvania!

The had just ended on 1/1/05 and it might have applied to existing relationships. I'm not sure, but they did not hold themselves out as husband and wife.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Ahh, oohh. My bad, will edit my post... However, I wonder how old Mrs. Burtterworth is-- LOL again. :floorlaugh:

It's all good !!! LoL on Mrs. Butterworth. Pass the pancakes, ok ? :wink:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Hmmm...I don't like Saturday. Why ? 'cause that's where your ratings fall off !!! Validity ratings below 50% on anything from 4-16 and after, remember ?

Ok, why would Saturday the 16th become important ? :wink:

A truly independent witness on 4/16 would increase the chances it was RFG. The odds would go up a bit.

 

[SeekingJana]

The had just ended on 1/1/05 and it might have applied to existing relationships. I'm not sure, but they did not hold themselves out as husband and wife.

Whatever it was that Ray and Patti had, I definitely think she was holding on for life. She was going to " travel all across the country with him, visit the national parks, see CA, visit Lara" after HE retired.
I edited my post..