PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

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I agree no one should be a suspect by bettering theirself.

Not suspecting anyone, just noting a trait.

If he had a long term issue with money he wouldn't have elected to be a stay at home dad. Also add in that's no money for 4 to 5 years as you said.

He didn't stay with the plan. BG's job was good enough that only one had to work. RFG fairly quickly found something to do.

Again, and with no reference to the Sandusky case, RFG assigned a fairly high value to money; it was important to him. There is nothing illegal in that.

That, in theory, could provide a motivation for other, completely legal, actions.
 
I'm from NY and I like Billy Joel^^

Wondering where you were going with this line of thinking JJ. Were you gonna give us a line from a song or something?
 
I thought I was a lone soul in the world saying I thought Gricar's disappearance looked staged. So now there are two of us! Not that we're right, but it's a thought worth exploring. Lol. Thank you, cloudbuster

""You've got his car being found, locked with cellphones inside. The computers found and the hard drive is found there in the river. The body is never found," Wecht said. "Looks to me like it was staged."

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/cyril-wecht-centre-county-das-disappearance-linked/nGnSm/
 
I really believe Gricar was murdered and that it's tied to Sandusky. Perhaps the drug distribution aspect that's yet to come to light; perhaps not. (And I wonder if that's the aspect that JKA referred to as what the grand jury was ignoring that might come back to bite them. Doesn't seem like it; seems like those would be totally separate charges, but IDK.)

I'm not on board with Wecht when he relates the staging of Gricar's disappearance to a suicide.
 
I really believe Gricar was murdered and that it's tied to Sandusky. Perhaps the drug distribution aspect that's yet to come to light; perhaps not. (And I wonder if that's the aspect that JKA referred to as what the grand jury was ignoring that might come back to bite them. Doesn't seem like it; seems like those would be totally separate charges, but IDK.)

I'm not on board with Wecht when he relates the staging of Gricar's disappearance to a suicide.

The problem is, this really doesn't look like suicide. The mapquest to Lewisburg certainly does not point to it. From the air searches, it looks like the call was made reasonably close to Centre Hall, and that does not point to RFG driving off, without walking the dog, right before he killed himself. No body, obviously.

There was RFG acting uncharacteristically, but the only person who have staged that was RFG.

They both point to something scheduled in Lewisburg. There is no evidence that this involved Sandusky. He wasn't prosecuting, he wasn't investigating, and some members of the staff, in 1998, knew that there was an investigation of Sandusky when it happened.
 
Not suspecting anyone, just noting a trait.



He didn't stay with the plan. BG's job was good enough that only one had to work. RFG fairly quickly found something to do.

Again, and with no reference to the Sandusky case, RFG assigned a fairly high value to money; it was important to him. There is nothing illegal in that.

That, in theory, could provide a motivation for other, completely legal, actions.

RFG didn't quickly find something to do and he wasn't interested in money. Here's what happened.

Gricar moved to State College, Pennsylvania, around 1980, when his wife took a job at Pennsylvania State University ("Penn State"). He opted to become a stay-at-home dad to his young daughter following the move; however, when news spread that a prosecutor was living in the area, Centre County District Attorney David E. Grine offered Gricar an assistant position, which he accepted. In 1985, the incumbent district attorney, Robert Mix (Grine's successor), chose not to run for re-election, and Gricar ran for the open position. He won the election by a margin of 600 votes.
Ray Gricar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A part-time job when he was first elected, Gricar successfully campaigned to make the Centre County DA job a full-time one in 1996 He was re-elected as DA in 1989, 1993, 1997 and 2001

1985 to 1996 is how many years? So eleven years later he opted to make the DA position full time. It don't get any clearer than that. It took Ray eleven years to think about money??? Ray had no interest, notice he was asked to take the position.
 
RFG didn't quickly find something to do and he wasn't interested in money. Here's what happened.

Gricar moved to State College, Pennsylvania, around 1980, when his wife took a job at Pennsylvania State University ("Penn State"). He opted to become a stay-at-home dad to his young daughter following the move; however, when news spread that a prosecutor was living in the area, Centre County District Attorney David E. Grine offered Gricar an assistant position, which he accepted. In 1985, the incumbent district attorney, Robert Mix (Grine's successor), chose not to run for re-election, and Gricar ran for the open position. He won the election by a margin of 600 votes.
Ray Gricar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your inference is incorrect. Here is the reference to RFG being an ADA in 1981: http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.....dll?path=DCG/1981/04/28/14/Img/Pg014_120.png

He moved in to the county in 1979 and in 1980, he was an ADA.


1985 to 1996 is how many years? So eleven years later he opted to make the DA position full time. It don't get any clearer than that. It took Ray eleven years to think about money??? Ray had no interest, notice he was asked to take the position.

As posted in the previous link, RFG called for the DA position to be made full time in January 1986, about three weeks after being sworn in. It was also an issue in the 1993 race, with Bryant opposing the suggestion.

RFG had to go to the commissioners to make the position full time; in 1986 they declined and though he continued to push for it, the commissioners didn't change that until 1996-7.
 
In support of pinkToes and others of like mind... It's clear (in my opinion) that there is "staging" on some level. By whom and for what purpose is the mystery. If you try to take everything on face value the way it has been reported through official channels, you'll spin in circles and never solve this case, because a very careful planned deception has taken place (again, in my opinion). Only by questioning the official line, thinking outside the box, and asking "is there another possible explanation?" will anyone ever get to the truth.

For example, (and just for fun), consider the following hypothetical storyline:

PF has a plan to have RG murdered (motive unknown, but if you live with someone long enough there's probably a reason). :floorlaugh: The plan for how to murder RG and stage the other evidence has been planned months in advance. The plan is to bump Ray off, and stage things with similarities to his brother's suicide (to put LE on the trail of suicide), and also to stage some things like a book (20/20 Vision) RG is familiar with, to put LE on the trail of a "walk away". (PF knows the history around Ray's brother, she knows about the book, and she knows every other intimate aspect of RG's life necessary to pull this off.) PF needs a way to let a hit man know when RG will be in a certain area between Centre Hall and Lewisburg, so she uses RG's laptop to get on Mapquest and determine the exact timing. Later she realizes this search will be traceable, so she does another search for how to destroy a hard drive. She thinks that once the hard drive has been destroyed that no one would ever know that the searches were made (she doesn't understand how computer searches are saved on a different machine). She waits patiently for a day that she knows RG will be going antiquing. The night before he goes missing, he tells her "I think I'll take tomorrow afternoon off and go antiquing." She slips out at night and makes a call from a nearby (untraceable) pay phone to her hired gun, and says "Tomorrow is the day. I'll let you know when he leaves the house." When Ray is showering in the morning (or the night before), she slips his laptop into the back of the Minicooper. As he is leaving, PF says to RG "call me when you get to Center Hall and let me know if the Whistlestop is open, (or makes up some other reason for him to call her). On some back road between Bellefonte and Lewisburg, RG is forced off the road. At gunpoint, RG is told to stay in his car. A blonde woman enters the front passenger side. A gunman crouches in the back. RG is instructed to drive around Lewisburg for awhile (or else!) to establish sightings of him there. Then he is instructed to drive back to where he was forced off the road, where he enters the (metallic colored) car of the gunman. The gunman crouches in the back of the metallic colored car and instructs RG to drive back to the court house (where he'll be seen again, and which will cause another wild goose chase leading nowhere), and then head out of town. Meanwhile, the blonde woman takes off her blonde wig, and drives RG's Minicooper back into Lewisburg (while smoking a cigarette), throws the computer and hard drive into the river, parks the Minicooper with RG's cell phone in it, and disappears. (It's necessary that the cell phone be found to help verify PF's story that RG called her to say he would be going antiquing). RG is taken on a long ride from which he never returns. Because this was a professional hit, his body will never be found. LE will spend years reading 20/20 Vision, and researching Ray's brother's suicide, and otherwise chasing their own tails.

This hypothetical has some problems (I'm sure J.J. can point them out - LOL). But…my point here is not that I have an iron clad case against PF, or that I even remotely suspect her. The point is that in order to first start considering a scenario like this one needs to question some basic assumptions. (We know that someone called PF using RG's cell phone, but we only have PF's word as to what was said to her. We know RG's car was found in Lewisburg, but do we really know he drove it there? What about the dogs failing to find his scent? What about the cigarette smoke? We know there were searches on RG's computer. Do we know for certain that he made the searches? Etc.) If instead you say "well, we know RG called PF at such and such time, and we know RG was spotted in Lewisburg at such and such time", then I predict you'll get nowhere.

I've arrived at this conclusion because I first concluded that suicide ain't it. That leaves walk-away (in which case RG is doing the deceiving), or foul play (in which case the bad guys are doing the deceiving). In either case, things will not be as they appear, by design of the deceiver(s).

Ever since the O.J. Simpson trial, I have made a little mental note: “If I ever need to kill somebody, be sure to leave behind some clothing that doesn’t fit me, like maybe a glove…” A little deception can go a long way.
 
For example, (and just for fun), consider the following hypothetical storyline:

The plan is to bump Ray off, and stage things with similarities to his brother's suicide (to put LE on the trail of suicide), and also to stage some things like a book (20/20 Vision) RG is familiar with, to put LE on the trail of a "walk away". (PF knows the history around Ray's brother, she knows about the book, and she knows every other intimate aspect of RG's life necessary to pull this off.)

1. I'm not sure if PEF knew the details of Roy's suicide or ever saw the site. They were not involved in 1996.

2. There were numerous reports of RFG acting strangely a week to a month prior to his disappearance, a reporter, a court administrator, PEF and JKA. That could not be faked (except by RFG).

PF needs a way to let a hit man know when RG will be in a certain area between Centre Hall and Lewisburg, so she uses RG's laptop to get on Mapquest and determine the exact timing.

The mapquest was on RFG's password protected office computer and there three routes, two technically quicker, to Lewisburg. One branches at Centre Hall. You'd need two people covering it.

Later she realizes this search will be traceable, so she does another search for how to destroy a hard drive. She thinks that once the hard drive has been destroyed that no one would ever know that the searches were made (she doesn't understand how computer searches are saved on a different machine).

Ah, the searches were made on the home desktop.

She waits patiently for a day that she knows RG will be going antiquing. The night before he goes missing, he tells her "I think I'll take tomorrow afternoon off and go antiquing." She slips out at night and makes a call from a nearby (untraceable) pay phone to her hired gun, and says "Tomorrow is the day. I'll let you know when he leaves the house." When Ray is showering in the morning (or the night before), she slips his laptop into the back of the Minicooper. As he is leaving, PF says to RG "call me when you get to Center Hall and let me know if the Whistlestop is open, (or makes up some other reason for him to call her).

There isn't really anything in Centre Hall, well, to the west, that could be used.

On some back road between Bellefonte and Lewisburg, RG is forced off the road.

Ah, the car was pristine and wouldn't be if forced off a country road.

As for the rest, you have at least 6 witnesses seeing RFG driving around Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05. You have at least two others that saw RFG in the Street of Shops.

Ever since the O.J. Simpson trial, I have made a little mental note: “If I ever need to kill somebody, be sure to leave behind some clothing that doesn’t fit me, like maybe a glove…” A little deception can go a long way.

The problem is that RFG had a long term intent to destroy the data on the drive. That could be unrelated to his disappearance. That would explain a lot.

RFG could have thought, wrongly, that there might be something on the laptop itself, and then tossed it, since we are talking about technological illiteracy.
 
There is another problem with the hit man idea. The house belonged to PEF; the Mini was in PEF's name. If she wanted out of the relationship, she had but to say, **Get out of my house, and don't take my car.**

A divorce wasn't necessary and she didn't have to hire anyone.
 
I'm from NY and I like Billy Joel^^

Wondering where you were going with this line of thinking JJ. Were you gonna give us a line from a song or something?

Missed this earlier. I referred to one of his later songs in one of my published articles, more than 20 years ago.

About 35 years ago, when I was in high school, his album, The Stranger was quite popular. I think many of the songs might be apropos in this case, ironically.

One that wasn't released as a single, IIRC, was "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant." You might want to listen to it, to set the mood.
 
1. I'm not sure if PEF knew the details of Roy's suicide or ever saw the site. They were not involved in 1996.

2. There were numerous reports of RFG acting strangely a week to a month prior to his disappearance, a reporter, a court administrator, PEF and JKA. That could not be faked (except by RFG).



The mapquest was on RFG's password protected office computer and there three routes, two technically quicker, to Lewisburg. One branches at Centre Hall. You'd need two people covering it.



Ah, the searches were made on the home desktop.



There isn't really anything in Centre Hall, well, to the west, that could be used.



Ah, the car was pristine and wouldn't be if forced off a country road.

As for the rest, you have at least 6 witnesses seeing RFG driving around Lewisburg after noon on 4/15/05. You have at least two others that saw RFG in the Street of Shops.



The problem is that RFG had a long term intent to destroy the data on the drive. That could be unrelated to his disappearance. That would explain a lot.

RFG could have thought, wrongly, that there might be something on the laptop itself, and then tossed it, since we are talking about technological illiteracy.

I think the point was missed . We are being instructed on how to think outside of the box. I love doing that. As Mr Beck would say "question with boldness".
 
In support of pinkToes and others of like mind... It's clear (in my opinion) that there is "staging" on some level. By whom and for what purpose is the mystery. If you try to take everything on face value the way it has been reported through official channels, you'll spin in circles and never solve this case, because a very careful planned deception has taken place (again, in my opinion). Only by questioning the official line, thinking outside the box, and asking "is there another possible explanation?" will anyone ever get to the truth.

For example, (and just for fun), consider the following hypothetical storyline:

PF has a plan to have RG murdered (motive unknown, but if you live with someone long enough there's probably a reason). :floorlaugh: The plan for how to murder RG and stage the other evidence has been planned months in advance. The plan is to bump Ray off, and stage things with similarities to his brother's suicide (to put LE on the trail of suicide), and also to stage some things like a book (20/20 Vision) RG is familiar with, to put LE on the trail of a "walk away". (PF knows the history around Ray's brother, she knows about the book, and she knows every other intimate aspect of RG's life necessary to pull this off.) PF needs a way to let a hit man know when RG will be in a certain area between Centre Hall and Lewisburg, so she uses RG's laptop to get on Mapquest and determine the exact timing. Later she realizes this search will be traceable, so she does another search for how to destroy a hard drive. She thinks that once the hard drive has been destroyed that no one would ever know that the searches were made (she doesn't understand how computer searches are saved on a different machine). She waits patiently for a day that she knows RG will be going antiquing. The night before he goes missing, he tells her "I think I'll take tomorrow afternoon off and go antiquing." She slips out at night and makes a call from a nearby (untraceable) pay phone to her hired gun, and says "Tomorrow is the day. I'll let you know when he leaves the house." When Ray is showering in the morning (or the night before), she slips his laptop into the back of the Minicooper. As he is leaving, PF says to RG "call me when you get to Center Hall and let me know if the Whistlestop is open, (or makes up some other reason for him to call her). On some back road between Bellefonte and Lewisburg, RG is forced off the road. At gunpoint, RG is told to stay in his car. A blonde woman enters the front passenger side. A gunman crouches in the back. RG is instructed to drive around Lewisburg for awhile (or else!) to establish sightings of him there. Then he is instructed to drive back to where he was forced off the road, where he enters the (metallic colored) car of the gunman. The gunman crouches in the back of the metallic colored car and instructs RG to drive back to the court house (where he'll be seen again, and which will cause another wild goose chase leading nowhere), and then head out of town. Meanwhile, the blonde woman takes off her blonde wig, and drives RG's Minicooper back into Lewisburg (while smoking a cigarette), throws the computer and hard drive into the river, parks the Minicooper with RG's cell phone in it, and disappears. (It's necessary that the cell phone be found to help verify PF's story that RG called her to say he would be going antiquing). RG is taken on a long ride from which he never returns. Because this was a professional hit, his body will never be found. LE will spend years reading 20/20 Vision, and researching Ray's brother's suicide, and otherwise chasing their own tails.

This hypothetical has some problems (I'm sure J.J. can point them out - LOL). But…my point here is not that I have an iron clad case against PF, or that I even remotely suspect her. The point is that in order to first start considering a scenario like this one needs to question some basic assumptions. (We know that someone called PF using RG's cell phone, but we only have PF's word as to what was said to her. We know RG's car was found in Lewisburg, but do we really know he drove it there? What about the dogs failing to find his scent? What about the cigarette smoke? We know there were searches on RG's computer. Do we know for certain that he made the searches? Etc.) If instead you say "well, we know RG called PF at such and such time, and we know RG was spotted in Lewisburg at such and such time", then I predict you'll get nowhere.

I've arrived at this conclusion because I first concluded that suicide ain't it. That leaves walk-away (in which case RG is doing the deceiving), or foul play (in which case the bad guys are doing the deceiving). In either case, things will not be as they appear, by design of the deceiver(s).

Ever since the O.J. Simpson trial, I have made a little mental note: “If I ever need to kill somebody, be sure to leave behind some clothing that doesn’t fit me, like maybe a glove…” A little deception can go a long way.
Chief I loved your post. Im still laughing.:floorlaugh: Its true what your saying. Going outside of the box is the way to go.
 
I think the point was missed . We are being instructed on how to think outside of the box. I love doing that. As Mr Beck would say "question with boldness".

Outside the box and outside reality are two different things.

You have four people, on the record, stating that RFG was acting differently, prior to his disappearance. You may have others that saw it, but have not spoken to the press. A hit man wouldn't account for that.

A second problem is one of geography. There are three routes to Lewisburg and a singular hit man could not cover them all. Couple that with RFG's propensity to drive for pleasure, without having a planned destination, or at least not having an articulated destination, and you have a problem.

It wouldn't matter who sent the hit man, these problems still occur with having a hit man on the way.

Following also creates a problem, because it would be difficult to follow RFG along that route without him spotting the tail.

That makes about as much sense as RFG being by a troll that lives under the bridge in Lewisburg.
 
Clouseau: I’d like for everyone to consider that maybe things aren’t always actually as they seem, due to the fact that when crimes are committed, sometimes clever perpetrators try to throw investigators off track. For example, a glove that didn’t fit O.J. was left at the scene of the Nicole Brown murder. Johnny Cochran says that exonerates O.J. But…enter the clever Inspector Clouseau. He furrows his brow, stumbles over a chair, apologizes to it, and exclaims “Aha! Is it possible that O.J. was in the habit of wearing gloves that didn’t fit him? Is it possible that O.J. intentionally left behind a glove that didn’t fit him? Is it possible that someone else was there with O.J.? Kato – I’ve done it again!”

J.J.: I know for a fact that PF didn’t wear gloves in April. Any suggestion that PF was wearing gloves to keep her fingerprints off RG’s cell phone are ludicrous. There is absolutely no evidence that gloves were used by anyone anywhere ever.

CloudBuster: I think the point was missed.
 
J.J.: I know for a fact that PF didn’t wear gloves in April. Any suggestion that PF was wearing gloves to keep her fingerprints off RG’s cell phone are ludicrous. There is absolutely no evidence that gloves were used by anyone anywhere ever.

The computer where the searches were done was not destroyed; the BPD still has it. They determined that RFG did the searches.

RFG asked other people about how to get rid of the data on the laptop; that was about a year prior to disappearing.

The laptop might be related to RFG's disappearance (and that would point to voluntary departure), but it might not be either. RFG might have decided that, since he was going to be in Lewisburg, it would be an ideal place to do something he'd wanted to do for a while, get rid of the data on the laptop. He might have done that first, then something happened to him.
 
I'm surprised that's the song you were thinking of. The Stranger seems more appropriate to me considering I don't think anyone really knew Ray at all; especially Patty. To think she had anything to do with his disappearance is thinking outside the box whereas that box is on the moon. The chances of that being what happened are quite slim to none.

I still think what I posted several threads ago. Nothing has come up that contradicts my earlier posts which (to summarize) states that Ray had been thinking about disappearing for a while, knew people in his past who did just that, his brother to some degree did that and it was a concept that floated around in his life for a long long time.

I think Ray knew what he was going to do; just not when. I also think there was stuff on that hard drive that was either incriminating, threatening or embarrassing and he never wanted anyone to know about. The fact that it was even found was never the intention.

I don't think he planned to leave on that specific day, but something happened and he decided that was the day. I know JJ has a problem with how did he get out of Lewisburg, but I think we covered that in earlier posts too with the concept of "help."

His behavior, his reactions to certain situations before he disappeared and his life history all points to a walk away. Even the book that opened to the spot in the law book which describes what to do if the DA disappears all point to a walkaway for me.

"and there we are waving Brenda and Eddie goodbye." lol thanks Billy Joel
 
I'm surprised that's the song you were thinking of. The Stranger seems more appropriate to me considering I don't think anyone really knew Ray at all; especially Patty. To think she had anything to do with his disappearance is thinking outside the box whereas that box is on the moon. The chances of that being what happened are quite slim to none.

"The Stranger" might eventually come into play, and it might be a good analogy for Sandusky, if he's found guilty. I was speaking to the breakup of the second marriage.

I've said a few thing:

A. Pinktoes suggested that RFG left #2; I have not questioned that statement.

B. I have indicated that RFG told someone the reason for the breakup with #2. I've indicated that the reason he gave had nothing to do with infidelity on the part of RFG or #2.

C. I've noted RFG's interest in money (which is neither illegal nor, IMO, immoral). "Frugal."

And, I will note that I rather like "Scenes From an Italian Restaurant."

"and there we are waving Brenda and Eddie goodbye." lol thanks Billy Joel

"... That's all I heard about Brenda and Eddie
Can't tell you more than I told you already... ."

Your post was quite good, and I've commented on the rest below.
 
I still think what I posted several threads ago. Nothing has come up that contradicts my earlier posts which (to summarize) states that Ray had been thinking about disappearing for a while, knew people in his past who did just that, his brother to some degree did that and it was a concept that floated around in his life for a long long time.

I think Ray knew what he was going to do; just not when. I also think there was stuff on that hard drive that was either incriminating, threatening or embarrassing and he never wanted anyone to know about. The fact that it was even found was never the intention.

I'm sort of in a devil's advocate position. In that regard, it could have been something as innocuous as his credit card information. I destroy my old drives, but not because of anything illegal.

I don't think he planned to leave on that specific day, but something happened and he decided that was the day. I know JJ has a problem with how did he get out of Lewisburg, but I think we covered that in earlier posts too with the concept of "help."

The problem I have is evidence. In theory, RFG could get out of Lewisburg, with or without help. If he did, there should be evidence of that.

His behavior, his reactions to certain situations before he disappeared and his life history all points to a walk away. Even the book that opened to the spot in the law book which describes what to do if the DA disappears all point to a walkaway for me.

I tried to duplicate the code book, and could not. I think it was opened, but possibly the morning of 4/18. Somebody wanted to see who was in charge and either forgot or thought he/she would look ghoulish for checking.

I wouldn't say that his history points to walkaway, but his change in demeanor certainly points to something being different, up to a month prior his disappearance. It almost looked like it was building to something.

All that said, there is slightly more evidence that RFG walked away, but it is not definitive.
 
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