PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

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In support of pinkToes and others of like mind... It's clear (in my opinion) that there is "staging" on some level. By whom and for what purpose is the mystery. If you try to take everything on face value the way it has been reported through official channels, you'll spin in circles and never solve this case, because a very careful planned deception has taken place (again, in my opinion). Only by questioning the official line, thinking outside the box, and asking "is there another possible explanation?" will anyone ever get to the truth.

For example, (and just for fun), consider the following hypothetical storyline:

PF has a plan to have RG murdered (motive unknown, but if you live with someone long enough there's probably a reason). :floorlaugh: The plan for how to murder RG and stage the other evidence has been planned months in advance. The plan is to bump Ray off, and stage things with similarities to his brother's suicide (to put LE on the trail of suicide), and also to stage some things like a book (20/20 Vision) RG is familiar with, to put LE on the trail of a "walk away". (PF knows the history around Ray's brother, she knows about the book, and she knows every other intimate aspect of RG's life necessary to pull this off.) PF needs a way to let a hit man know when RG will be in a certain area between Centre Hall and Lewisburg, so she uses RG's laptop to get on Mapquest and determine the exact timing. Later she realizes this search will be traceable, so she does another search for how to destroy a hard drive. She thinks that once the hard drive has been destroyed that no one would ever know that the searches were made (she doesn't understand how computer searches are saved on a different machine). She waits patiently for a day that she knows RG will be going antiquing. The night before he goes missing, he tells her "I think I'll take tomorrow afternoon off and go antiquing." She slips out at night and makes a call from a nearby (untraceable) pay phone to her hired gun, and says "Tomorrow is the day. I'll let you know when he leaves the house." When Ray is showering in the morning (or the night before), she slips his laptop into the back of the Minicooper. As he is leaving, PF says to RG "call me when you get to Center Hall and let me know if the Whistlestop is open, (or makes up some other reason for him to call her). On some back road between Bellefonte and Lewisburg, RG is forced off the road. At gunpoint, RG is told to stay in his car. A blonde woman enters the front passenger side. A gunman crouches in the back. RG is instructed to drive around Lewisburg for awhile (or else!) to establish sightings of him there. Then he is instructed to drive back to where he was forced off the road, where he enters the (metallic colored) car of the gunman. The gunman crouches in the back of the metallic colored car and instructs RG to drive back to the court house (where he'll be seen again, and which will cause another wild goose chase leading nowhere), and then head out of town. Meanwhile, the blonde woman takes off her blonde wig, and drives RG's Minicooper back into Lewisburg (while smoking a cigarette), throws the computer and hard drive into the river, parks the Minicooper with RG's cell phone in it, and disappears. (It's necessary that the cell phone be found to help verify PF's story that RG called her to say he would be going antiquing). RG is taken on a long ride from which he never returns. Because this was a professional hit, his body will never be found. LE will spend years reading 20/20 Vision, and researching Ray's brother's suicide, and otherwise chasing their own tails.

This hypothetical has some problems (I'm sure J.J. can point them out - LOL). But…my point here is not that I have an iron clad case against PF, or that I even remotely suspect her. The point is that in order to first start considering a scenario like this one needs to question some basic assumptions. (We know that someone called PF using RG's cell phone, but we only have PF's word as to what was said to her. We know RG's car was found in Lewisburg, but do we really know he drove it there? What about the dogs failing to find his scent? What about the cigarette smoke? We know there were searches on RG's computer. Do we know for certain that he made the searches? Etc.) If instead you say "well, we know RG called PF at such and such time, and we know RG was spotted in Lewisburg at such and such time", then I predict you'll get nowhere.

I've arrived at this conclusion because I first concluded that suicide ain't it. That leaves walk-away (in which case RG is doing the deceiving), or foul play (in which case the bad guys are doing the deceiving). In either case, things will not be as they appear, by design of the deceiver(s).

Ever since the O.J. Simpson trial, I have made a little mental note: “If I ever need to kill somebody, be sure to leave behind some clothing that doesn’t fit me, like maybe a glove…” A little deception can go a long way.

Great post!! I think that is exactly why this case has never been solved!! I think we all need to "look outside the box" and stop protecting the people we "believe" could never harm someone, like "PF" for instance.

And c'mon-do you really want us to believe that PF was in a relationship with Mr. Gricar and he never shared with her the way his brother died? I wonder how much investigating has been done on PF's brother? I don't believe that Mr. Gricar would have ever added to the pain that his nephews had been through. I also don't believe that Mr. Gricar would have ever harmed his daughter by walking away.

If it turns out that Mr. Gricar was less than honest, I will never put my faith in another human. Ever.:banghead:
 
Great post!! I think that is exactly why this case has never been solved!! I think we all need to "look outside the box" and stop protecting the people we "believe" could never harm someone, like "PF" for instance.

She was extensively interviewed by the police. Had a four hour meeting with two area DA's, without an attorney present. Took and passed a polygraph. Her whereabouts were also accounted for the entire day. (BTW: I suspected her until the evidence came out.)

And c'mon-do you really want us to believe that PF was in a relationship with Mr. Gricar and he never shared with her the way his brother died?

Do you believe he took her on a tour of the site?


I don't believe that Mr. Gricar would have ever added to the pain that his nephews had been through. I also don't believe that Mr. Gricar would have ever harmed his daughter by walking away.

Actually, there about 350,000 why he might.

If it turns out that Mr. Gricar was less than honest, I will never put my faith in another human. Ever.:banghead:

If he walked away, why do you think that would make him dishonest?
 
Identity fraud. Pension fraud. Lying by omission to his significant other, his daughter, his extended family and his friends. Leaving his elected office in a turmoil when he was expected to testify in court. Jeoparding any pending cases. All not the province of an honest and honorable man who could just wait to get his retirement, Social Security, and then move to some tropical island.
 
Identity fraud. Pension fraud. Lying by omission to his significant other, his daughter, his extended family and his friends. Leaving his elected office in a turmoil when he was expected to testify in court. Jeoparding any pending cases. All not the province of an honest and honorable man who could just wait to get his retirement, Social Security, and then move to some tropical island.

Not identity fraud. You are free to travel incognito.

Not pension fraud, since he hasn't claimed it, unless you are one of those people that think he's in cahoots with his daughter. For the record, I don't think he's in cahoots with his daughter.

He's an adult, as are his daughter and girlfriend. He has no legal comment to either.

Just accept that under our system of government, an adult is free to leave, whether or not that offends you personally.
 
People do walk away from their lives. You think you know someone, but you don't. What makes sense to one person doesn't compute or resonate with another. Some folks reach a certain age and think -- "I have to do something to radically change my life while I can" -- but they don't want to deal with the emotional fall out. So they contemplate, ruminate and plan...then, *when someone would least expect it*, they execute the plan and they are gone. It does happen.
 
It was clear to me that JKA discussed JJ in her tome because:
(1) she said it got her attention when she found out JJ had mentioned her elsewhere;
(2) she had some questions about JJ's motives in writing about Gricar's disappearance.

So, it seems to me she was counter-attacking, believing she had been attacked.

Was she correct? In my reading, yes.

But more interesting to me is the entire exchange of not just JJ and JKA, but other locals who seem to have posted about Gricar. And, just as JKA asked about JJ's writings, "To what end?", I have that question in my mind about ALL of the locals who it appears commented about Gricar.

"To what end?" I'm sorry, but this isn't typical behavior. Did they hope to find out what happened to Gricar via that method? Really?

Or, did they/do they simply enjoy the intellectual exercise of arguing? Or the catharsis of venting their emotional spleen?

I truly don't get the methodology. In a way I have little interest in the content, since I'm not sure it is going to reveal anything useful. It's the process that might bear fruit, so let the conversation continue. Except that it looks like most of the parties have left the party.
 
JJ: JKA believes you said more. And I believe I read it independently of her tome as well. Anyhow, this is what I'm referencing (and is my belief this is why she retaliated. And this is what I mean by you "going after her")

" Reading through several subsequent JJ addenda to his "Murder" thread, I found two such references. The first, posted October 11, 2006, notes that K (killer) would 'need access to Arnold's records'. The second, posted October 12, 2006, states as follows: "K [killer] says at this point 'I'm worried about my job'. Was it Arnold that was fired at the change of administrations at the DA's office?""

from:
http://sites.google.com/site/gricard...linediscussion

Link does not work- and I'd like to read it if someone could supply?
 
It was clear to me that JKA discussed JJ in her tome because:
(1) she said it got her attention when she found out JJ had mentioned her elsewhere;

Except I wasn't the first person to mention her. Interestingly, she didn't mention another poster.

(2) she had some questions about JJ's motives in writing about Gricar's disappearance.

So, it seems to me she was counter-attacking, believing she had been attacked.

Was she correct? In my reading, yes.

And what "attack" occurred?

But more interesting to me is the entire exchange of not just JJ and JKA, but other locals who seem to have posted about Gricar. And, just as JKA asked about JJ's writings, "To what end?", I have that question in my mind about ALL of the locals who it appears commented about Gricar.

"To what end?" I'm sorry, but this isn't typical behavior. Did they hope to find out what happened to Gricar via that method? Really?

Frustration, in my case. I asked my first question about seven months after RFG disappeared, because there was no progress in the case. While I think walkaway is slightly more likely, foul play is still possible.

I truly don't get the methodology.

There is not much more anyone can do?
 
<modsnip> I think there might have been (and JKA's repeated use of the word 'paramour' suggests she might have thought so too) some overlap in the non-cohabitating portion of the romantic relationship between Gricar and Patty. And, that is not known to most of us. Ie, dating--not living together. Dating while Gricar was still married to wife 2.

Gotta run. Might get back to address other items later. Thanks for bearing with me.
 
<modsnip> I think there might have been (and JKA's repeated use of the word 'paramour' suggests she might have thought so too) some overlap in the non-cohabitating portion of the romantic relationship between Gricar and Patty. And, that is not known to most of us. Ie, dating--not living together. Dating while Gricar was still married to wife 2.

Gotta run. Might get back to address other items later. Thanks for bearing with me.

He filed for divorce and didn't move in with this person you claim he was seeing until a year later.

Further, he was the party asking for the divorce. If he was having an affair with anyone, why would he be asking for the divorce?
 
He filed for divorce and didn't move in with this person you claim he was seeing until a year later.

Further, he was the party asking for the divorce. If he was having an affair with anyone, why would he be asking for the divorce?

Ummm...so he could stop sneaking around? So he could move in and live with his loved one? So he could make "an honest woman" of his beloved? IDK. Men do it all the time. So do women.

I don't understand why this concept, as a possibility, is so unthinkable. It happens. A lot.
 
Ummm...so he could stop sneaking around? So he could move in and live with his loved one? So he could make "an honest woman" of his beloved? IDK. Men do it all the time. So do women.

I don't understand why this concept, as a possibility, is so unthinkable. It happens. A lot.

He did not move in with her until some time later. They did not get married. And why would he be worried about sneaking around? #2 is going to know something is up when RFG asks for a divorce.

I'm sorry, Pinktoes, but you make these claims, and they turn out to be false.
 
I'd like to preface this by saying, I am not a mod. That being said, I think it could be an excellent idea if we remember to:

Attack the post, not the poster.
Don't make it personal.

I enjoy reading this thread. I like JJ's blog. I like the 'Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury' that was linked, above (that I read a couple years ago, but definitely needed the refresher). I like all the thoughts, ideas, and speculation herein.

Youse guyse (it's a Chicago thing) are an asset to WS, and I would hate for this thread to get derailed.

Thank you, sincerely, for all your posts here!

My two cents, and all that.
 
Mod note:

Whoa.

No personalizing posts and bickering.

Address the issue, not the poster.

Please alert any post you feel is violates our TOS or policies.
 
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