Paint tote

[rashomon]

Nah, its pretty simple actually. Patsy snapped and John helped to cover it up.

[DeeDee]:
That's it, I'm afraid.

JMO too.

 

[rashomon]

The problem with the 'snapped' idea is that all items used in the murder would need to be among household items that night, in order for the parents to use them. Since neither the cord or tape were ever officially sourced to the house, both could have been brought in by an intruder. The cord fiber found in the last place JBR was seen alive IMO makes the rage-accident idea seem even more remote. In other words, the evidence of unsourced cord and tape, and cord fibers found in JBR's bed, is more consistent with JR and PR's version of things and less consistent with RDI rage-accident version of things.

What cord fiber? Are you referring to the hemp rope fibers allegedly found in JonBenet's bed? But that rope was not used for the ligatures of JonBenet. The ligature cord was soft nylon.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

What cord fiber? Are you referring to the hemp rope fibers allegedly found in JonBenet's bed? But that rope was not used for the ligatures of JonBenet. The ligature cord was soft nylon.

What you posted is not the same as an excerpt posted on acandyrose from a federal court proceeding, that refers to ligature cord fibers in JBR's bed, from the cord used to strangle JBR.

Meanwhile, remember all these things not sourced to the house, IMO:

• handwriting
• cord
• tape
• weapon used to strike JBR over the head
• CODIS DNA
• brutal personality (It clearly manifests itself in the RN and on JBR, but nowhere else).

 

[coloradokares]

The problem with the 'snapped' idea is that all items used in the murder would need to be among household items that night, in order for the parents to use them. Since neither the cord or tape were ever officially sourced to the house, both could have been brought in by an intruder. The cord fiber found in the last place JBR was seen alive IMO makes the rage-accident idea seem even more remote. In other words, the evidence of unsourced cord and tape, and cord fibers found in JBR's bed, is more consistent with JR and PR's version of things and less consistent with RDI rage-accident version of things.

Holdontoyourhat I have a project for you. I need you to mentally write down a inventory of all items that could be sourced to your home, garage office etc. When you get done with that ... enlist the help of a friend and have them do an inventory and see if the list matches and that you had only the items you claimed to have not one more or less but exact, and everything was properly sourced. I need where everything was purchased and each receipt. Now that should keep you entertained for a bit. Let us know how it all turned out. I am sure you wont find a single item that you cannot source. As it turns out the tape was exact match from McGuckins if only they had the IOC Code in use at that time.

 

[Littledeer]

from holdontoyourhat:

snip.....

Meanwhile, remember all these things not sourced to the house, IMO, snip.....

• handwriting It has been "said" by some handwriting experts that it could be Patsy's. True, not conclusive, thereby it can't be considered "NOT" sourced.
• cord Says who?? This one, might be one that can not be determined if it was in the house that night or not.
• tape Simple reasoning on this one, who doesn't have some type of tape in their house?? It was X-Mas time, so you can guarantee that there was tape in the house. Was it "the tape" that was found on Jon Bonet?? Inconclusive to say it was not "sourced" from the house.
• weapon used to strike JBR over the head Gosh, please tell me what the weapon was? Then I can mull it over if it was sourced or NOT sourced from the house.
• CODIS DNA You got me on this one. CODIS??
• brutal personality (It clearly manifests itself in the RN and on JBR, but nowhere else). Brutal personality is subjective. I can yell at my husband and he would say "gosh you are being brutal", or I say something and he replies with "that was a brutal thing to say". Doesn't mean I'm not brutal, doesn't mean I can't be brutal either. Goes back to the "snap" moment.

Again, I don't normally post here, but I have always, always, wanted justice for Jon Bonet. And all of you have done nothing but try to do the same all these years. I'll just pop in once in a while and post my thoughts.

It might be interesting for you, if you did the same for things that have been "sourced" to the house!

GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!

 

[DeeDee249]

Both the cord and tape COULD have been (and very likely WERE) bought by one of the Rs at McGuckin's Hardware just before Christmas. The fact that items matching price and department WERE definitely listed doesn't prove that it was the tape and cord, but it could have been. So these two items can't be excluded as belonging to the house.
The handwriting will never be absolutely sourced to the house, as the author is dead, but the paper it was written on and the pen it was written with WERE sourced to the house.
The weapon used to bludgeon her to death has not been determined, so it can't be excluded as belongong to the house. It could have been PART of the house (as in a sink, tub edge, faucet or doorknob) as well as being a household object such as the flashlight, bat, golf club or log grabber (shown in the crime photos as lying on the floor of the wineceller near the door).
The wiped-down flashlight is the most obvious choice for the culprit. It was heavy enough to do the damage, blunt enough to punch a hole in a skull without breaking the skin, and more important- WIPED DOWN.
The contents of the digestive tract that helped fix a time of death is sourced to the house- the pineapple- as well as the bowl it was in (also sourced to PR via the fingerprints).
SO...we have the note and bludgeon definitely sourced to the house;
the tape, cord possibly sourced to the house;
autopsy results that gave an approximate time of death (the digestion of the pineapple) definitely sourced to the house.
Fibers on the body (from before it WAS a "body" definitely sourced to the house (the parents);
NOTHING attached to the murder can be excluded as being sourced to the house- everything attached to the murder can be either definitely or possibly sourced to the house.

 

[Ames]

Both the cord and tape COULD have been (and very likely WERE) bought by one of the Rs at McGuckin's Hardware just before Christmas. The fact that items matching price and department WERE definitely listed doesn't prove that it was the tape and cord, but it could have been. So these two items can't be excluded as belonging to the house.
The handwriting will never be absolutely sourced to the house, as the author is dead, but the paper it was written on and the pen it was written with WERE sourced to the house.
The weapon used to bludgeon her to death has not been determined, so it can't be excluded as belongong to the house. It could have been PART of the house (as in a sink, tub edge, faucet or doorknob) as well as being a household object such as the flashlight, bat, golf club or log grabber (shown in the crime photos as lying on the floor of the wineceller near the door).
The wiped-down flashlight is the most obvious choice for the culprit. It was heavy enough to do the damage, blunt enough to punch a hole in a skull without breaking the skin, and more important- WIPED DOWN.
The contents of the digestive tract that helped fix a time of death is sourced to the house- the pineapple- as well as the bowl it was in (also sourced to PR via the fingerprints).
SO...we have the note and bludgeon definitely sourced to the house;
the tape, cord possibly sourced to the house;
autopsy results that gave an approximate time of death (the digestion of the pineapple) definitely sourced to the house.
Fibers on the body (from before it WAS a "body" definitely sourced to the house (the parents);
NOTHING attached to the murder can be excluded as being sourced to the house- everything attached to the murder can be either definitely or possibly sourced to the house.

I can't remember....do you know if anybody ever questioned the employees at McGuckins Hardware store, about John or Patsy buying cord and/or tape there?

 

[DeeDee249]

I can't remember....do you know if anybody ever questioned the employees at McGuckins Hardware store, about John or Patsy buying cord and/or tape there?

I seem to recall that they were, but there were other items bought at the same time. It was also right before Christmas - I am sure the store was very busy. I can't imagine any cashier remembering that specifically- unless there had been some conversation about these specific items, and I don't think there was.

 

[Ames]

I seem to recall that they were, but there were other items bought at the same time. It was also right before Christmas - I am sure the store was very busy. I can't imagine any cashier remembering that specifically- unless there had been some conversation about these specific items, and I don't think there was.

Too bad that the store didn't have scanners, because then they would have had an itemized receipt. I know that Patsy used cord and tape to carry her paintings, if cord and tape was bought there by one of the Ramsey's...I would think that it would have been used for that...maybe she was giving some of them as gifts.

 

[rashomon]

What you posted is not the same as an excerpt posted on acandyrose from a federal court proceeding, that refers to ligature cord fibers in JBR's bed, from the cord used to strangle JBR.

Are you referring to Judge Carnes' ruling? Remember that Carnes got all her 'info' only from the Ramsey defense team and from Chris Wolf's lawyer.
Her so-called "statements of material fact" are often removed from actual case facts as far as the moon is from the earth.
Carnes is no reliable source, Holdon. You must look for other official documents if you want to back up what she wrote.

Meanwhile, remember all these things not sourced to the house, IMO:

• handwriting
• cord
• tape
• weapon used to strike JBR over the head
• CODIS DNA
• brutal personality (It clearly manifests itself in the RN and on JBR, but nowhere else).

Let's go through it point per point:

Handwriting: you know that of the many people tested, Patsy was among the few that could not be ruled out as the writer.

Cord: who says there had to have been a whole spool of the cord from which Patsy took the piece used on JonBene?
For example, Patsy could simply have some cord left, which she used for the ligatures.

Tape: same as above - Patsy could have pulled the small piece of duct tape from another object.

Or the Ramseys hid the remaining roll. They couldn't have done that, I hear you you say, since the house was thoroughly searched?

But hiding things from the Boulder police is obviously not that difficult.
I just read something in Dr. Lee's book (Cracking More Cases, p. 224/225)which is simply incredible:

One year after JonBenet's death, another homicide shocked Boulder. Susannah Chase, a 23-year-old student, was beaten beyond recognition by an assailant wielding a baseball bat, fell into a coma and died from her injuries shortly afterward.
Again, John Eller was in charge of the investigation. The victim's house keys were reported missing and could not be found. The Boulder police theorized that the assailant took those keys.
Two years later, at the constant urging of Susannah's parents, the BPD finally contacted Dr. Lee to assist them in reconstructing the case.
When Dr. Lee reexamined the victim's jacket, guess what he found in the pocket: the allegedly missing house keys!
These keys had not even been hidden, they had been there, all the time, and the police had not found them!
One gets the impression that a kindergartner could have tried to hide something from the BP and they would not have found it either ...

Weapon: no weapon needed, for JonBenet could have been slammed against a hard and flat surface, like e. g. the bathtub.

CODIS DNA: I know very little about DNA, maybe we could discuss it on a special thread where people having more knowledge about it can join in.
How DNA many markers does take for a sample to be entered into CODIS?
Has the sample collected from JB's underwear been entered?

Brutal personality: try to put yoursef in the offender's shoes, who in all probablility was not a brutal personality. This offender wants to stage a scene pointing away from her, so what what does she do? She stages it as a brutal-looking murder, and tries to write a ransom note which should read like a brutal killer-type wrote it.

jmo

 

[DeeDee249]

I think 10 markers is the minimum- 13 is preferred for CODIS. I think there were 9 markers from the DNA found on JBR. Her own DNA was fresh- no problem there. But the other DNA was already degraded. It was incomplete. It couldn't have been left at the same time.
PR flip-flops between saying that JBR had bathed recently or that she couldn't remember WHEN she had last given her a bath.
If she hadn't had a bath since, let's say the party on the 23rd, then that DNA could have nothing to do with the crime.
There were lots of male guests at that party, both children and adults.
Were ALL the males at that party tested for matching DNA? Were ANY of them?
The fingernail DNA could have come from simply handling something. And let's not forget that the coroner did NOT follow proper procedure and use 10 clean, sterile nail clippers, one for each fingernail. Instead, he used ONE clipper for all 10 fingers. With sloppy techniques like that, it can't be certain that the clippers were even properly sterilized before they were used. It may be from a previous autopsy- it may have nothing to do with JBR at all. There was ONLY DNA, NOT blood, NOT skin, NOT tissue under her nails.
We know that the DNA under the nails does not match the DNA in the panties. That may be artifact too, deposited in handling the underwear before it was packaged.
It has been said- this is not a DNA case.

 

[Ames]

I think 10 markers is the minimum- 13 is preferred for CODIS. I think there were 9 markers from the DNA found on JBR. Her own DNA was fresh- no problem there. But the other DNA was already degraded. It was incomplete. It couldn't have been left at the same time.
PR flip-flops between saying that JBR had bathed recently or that she couldn't remember WHEN she had last given her a bath.
If she hadn't had a bath since, let's say the party on the 23rd, then that DNA could have nothing to do with the crime.
There were lots of male guests at that party, both children and adults.
Were ALL the males at that party tested for matching DNA? Were ANY of them?
The fingernail DNA could have come from simply handling something. And let's not forget that the coroner did NOT follow proper procedure and use 10 clean, sterile nail clippers, one for each fingernail. Instead, he used ONE clipper for all 10 fingers. With sloppy techniques like that, it can't be certain that the clippers were even properly sterilized before they were used. It may be from a previous autopsy- it may have nothing to do with JBR at all. There was ONLY DNA, NOT blood, NOT skin, NOT tissue under her nails.
We know that the DNA under the nails does not match the DNA in the panties. That may be artifact too, deposited in handling the underwear before it was packaged.
It has been said- this is not a DNA case.

This is true...I had never thought about that before. If he was too lazy to follow proper procedure by using ten different sterile clippers... he may have been too lazy to sterilze the clippers from a previous autopsy. Who knows...maybe proper procedure is to use NEW clippers for each individual autopsy...and he didn't do that either.

 

[DeeDee249]

This is true...I had never thought about that before. If he was too lazy to follow proper procedure by using ten different sterile clippers... he may have been too lazy to sterilze the clippers from a previous autopsy. Who knows...maybe proper procedure is to use NEW clippers for each individual autopsy...and he didn't do that either.

Remember, this kind of sensational crime was not an everyday occurance in Boulder. Being that careful of following procedure of using separate clippers just hadn't happened that much. They may not even have HAD that many nailclippers, and no one thought it important enough to run to the drug store and BUY them. To the Boulder coroner's office, it probably had never been that important to justify purchasing all those nail clippers....
OR was it because there was no time to get them? The coroner seemed to be very reluctant to keep the body longer. Had to get her to the parents for that "News-at-Eleven Funeral".

 

[Ames]

Remember, this kind of sensational crime was not an everyday occurance in Boulder. Being that careful of following procedure of using separate clippers just hadn't happened that much. They may not even have HAD that many nailclippers, and no one thought it important enough to run to the drug store and BUY them. To the Boulder coroner's office, it probably had never been that important to justify purchasing all those nail clippers....
OR was it because there was no time to get them? The coroner seemed to be very reluctant to keep the body longer. Had to get her to the parents for that "News-at-Eleven Funeral".

That is true...I have wondered if they even have a JAIL in Boulder, since no crime takes place there.

I have often wondered why the Ramsey's were in such a hurry to get their daughter back for her funeral. Why the rush?? (I think that they were rushing the autopsy....didn't want the coroner to find anything that might point the finger in THEIR direction).

 

[BBB167893]

U gotta admit, its hard to swallow this whole Jekyl and Hyde idea. One minute they're fine (no priors), the next minute they're extremely brutal in both word (threat to behead a child) and deed (headbash, garrote strangulation, other injuries, on a child), and the next they're fine again (no additional violence of any kind).

To be honest, Holdon, I really can't disagree with you. But then, why anyone would kill their own children has never made any sense to me, and the day is DOES make sense to me, I can only pray that someone will have the decency to kill me. But in all honesty, I often think that their family life was NOT all peaches and cream. I think there WAS trouble in paradise.

I'm not buying that. Not for a minute.

Well, perhaps you'll have the courtesy to allow me to lay my "trouble in paradise" scenario on you sometime.

Dont give up your day job then, because thats how its done. Plenty people commit serious crimes who have no record, want to know a secret? Thats why nobody looks at them!

Well said! Well said.

Patsy, I believe, would have been familiar with the term countermeasures with regard to her ovarian cancer treatment.

Sure. My mom and dad have struggles with cancer. And countermeasures was a common word for them.

Do you know about the infamous Jeffrey MacDonald case? He too was clean right up to the night of the rage attack when he killed his family. No domestic violence charges, no abuse charges, no anything charges. Nothing.

Not even a traffic ticket.

The hits just keep on coming.

Ames, you beat me to that noose picture, sweetheart!

The problem with the 'snapped' idea is that all items used in the murder would need to be among household items that night, in order for the parents to use them.

Now you're talking concrete, Holdon.

Since neither the cord or tape were ever officially sourced to the house, both could have been brought in by an intruder.

Well, there's what we know, and there's what we can prove, isn't there?

The cord fiber found in the last place JBR was seen alive IMO makes the rage-accident idea seem even more remote.

Not necessarily.

In other words, the evidence of unsourced cord and tape, and cord fibers found in JBR's bed, is more consistent with JR and PR's version of things and less consistent with RDI rage-accident version of things.

More consistent with JR and PR's version? Well, I'll be glad to agree with you as soon as I figure out WHICH version you're talking about!

Handwriting: you know that of the many people tested, Patsy was among the few that could not be ruled out as the writer.

it's a little stronger than that, rashomon. To my knowledge, the only people who claim that there were other people who couldn't be eliminated were the Rs and their hired "experts," and even then, and this is the thing nobody notices, neither the Rs nor their lawyers and experts have EVER released those examination results. Not ONCE. And that's all they'd have to do. If their methodology and claims were so strong, why NOT release them? And the Rs aren't known for hiding the results of their store-bought analyses, as the "polygraph" incident demonstrates. Isn't that just interesting?

 

[DeeDee249]

PR wrote the note.

 

[Ames]

<snipped>

Ames, you beat me to that noose picture, sweetheart!

<snipped>

LOL...sorry about that SD. Wasn't that picture....ummmm...interesting...to say the least? Holdon had asked if anyone had proof that Patsy or John had ever made a garrote before, that we knew of. I don't know about you, but I would say that a noose (or lasso), is just about as close to a garrote as you can get. It shows that someone in the Ramsey family was talented when it came to making torture devices, or "pretend" torture devices... from ropes. I think that it is much more than just a coincidence.

 

[Ames]

PR wrote the note.

Heck yeah, she did!

 

[UKGuy]

LOL...sorry about that SD. Wasn't that picture....ummmm...interesting...to say the least? Holdon had asked if anyone had proof that Patsy or John had ever made a garrote before, that we knew of. I don't know about you, but I would say that a noose (or lasso), is just about as close to a garrote as you can get. It shows that someone in the Ramsey family was talented when it came to making torture devices, or "pretend" torture devices... from ropes. I think that it is much more than just a coincidence.

Ames,
Whomever constructed the garrote had patently not made one before since the final product could never function as a garrote since it had fixed knotting, never mind JonBenet's hair being bound into the knotting e.g. it was not used!

imo someone had already physically assaulted JonBenet, the abrasions on her lower neck are testimony to this, also her vaginal injury was cleaned up and hidden from view. So the garrote was intended as a visible explanation for her death and neck abrasions.

Yet since the garrote could not function as intended, suggesting her head injury finally contributed to her death. Also there is the macabre possibility that the lower neck abrasions are the result of a deliberate asphyxiation attempt, which are then covered up by the garrote.

imo JonBenet's death resulted from a molestation gone wrong, potentially placing sexual rage in the frame. The hiding of her vaginal injuries, the wiping away of blood, the clean size-12's all point to a sexual assault. There was no need to hide this aspect it could be all be blamed on the kidnapper, just as Lou Smit eventually attempted to do.

Also both the coroner and BPD considered JonBenet's vaginal trauma to be relevant. e.g.

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

And Steve Thomas tells us in his book:

In mid-September a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation--that JonBenet suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed.

Also JonBenet's vaginal trauma was so visibly apparent that it merited a slideshow comparing her genitalia with other normal, patent non-traumatised genitals.

So to summarize JonBenet's vaginal trauma was chronic, and it occured around the time of her death, Coroner Meyer suggests to us that her hymen was larger than normal, also one of the consulting pediatricians using magnified closeup autopsy photographs considered JonBenet's hymen to be unaturally enlarged estimated as 1 cm by 1 cm.


A majority of pediatricians and forensic examiners including the person who conducted JonBenet's autopsy concluded that sexual abuse was the likely cause.

So imo on the night of her death, someone molested JonBenet possibly restraining her in some manner e.g. tying cord, a belt, or something with a snap or buckle around her legs, possibly her upper body to prevent arm movement e.g those alleged stun-gun abrasions, followed by head trauma, and possible punching to the temples of her head, then an asphyxiation to finish her off.

The resulting wine-cellar staging simply underlines how deliberate it all appears, despite the attempts at staging!


.

 

[BBB167893]

Ames, I don't believe in coincidences.