Photo discrepancies

[TorisMom003]

There was also livor mortis in her chest. Remember? That has NEVER been explained to my knowledge and has bugged me since the day the AR was released.:waitasec:

Wait, didn't it first come out that when paramedics showed up on the scene that Rebecca was face down on the grass? I remember questions coming up about how in the heck could Adam have attempted CPR when she was face down. So, if rigor had set in with her legs bent and apart and then put face down on the grass would livor mortis have moved to her chest area as that was what was in contact with the ground?

 

[IWannaKnow]

At what point does rigor set in? At what point does livor set in? If rigor sets in before livor then yes, that might work. If livor sets in before rigor then no, it would not work.

ETA: I forgot that the AR states that livor mortis was on the posterior, not on the left posterior so that might not work after all no matter which one sets first.

They both begin at death, but it takes different amounts of time for each to 'set'. Rigor is affected by aggressive activity before death - that can shorten the onset and duration. Livor doesn't become 'set' for 8 to 12 hours. Incidentially, anything in contact with the body will not show livor because the capillaries are being compressed.

 

[SunnieRN]

Just thought of something I told another poster: *Alert, do not read if squeamish*

I truly believe that her legs were in rigor. Otherwise, they would NOT have stayed in that same position. When a person first dies, we have to clean them and remove any lines etc., unless it is a coroners case, then those stay in also. I have seen people who are dead a couple of hours or so. If you move a leg to clean the person, for example, it doesn't stay in that position, until rigor is setting in.

 

[IWannaKnow]

There was also livor mortis in her chest. Remember? That has NEVER been explained to my knowledge and has bugged me since the day the AR was released.:waitasec:

Wecht addressed this briefly on WS radio. Said all the veins draining into the superior vena cava could be the cause of this.

 

[mrsu]

The legs look exactly the same to me. You can see they are bent in both photo.

 

[SunnieRN]

Wait, didn't it first come out that when paramedics showed up on the scene that Rebecca was face down on the grass? I remember questions coming up about how in the heck could Adam have attempted CPR when she was face down. So, if rigor had set in with her legs bent and apart and then put face down on the grass would livor mortis have moved to her chest area as that was what was in contact with the ground?

Even if she was on her face for 18 minutes, there should not have been livor on her chest imho.

 

[SunnieRN]

Wecht addressed this briefly on WS radio. Said all the veins draining into the superior vena cava could be the cause of this.

1) If she were hanging, I don't understand how that could be

2) It fits the theory of her being prone, face down, for longer than 18 minutes

I am NOT an ME and do not usually deal with death however. It just doesn't seem plausible to em. Not impossible, but not plausible.:waitasec:

 

[time]

There was also livor mortis in her chest. Remember? That has NEVER been explained to my knowledge and has bugged me since the day the AR was released.:waitasec:

I really don't know enough about any of this... but I posted one very old article where livor mortis will set in in one place and if the body is moved before being set, it will start to disappear. Perhaps it can partially set in one place, the body is moved and set in another place - the result is livor mortis set in two different spots because of two different body positions after death??????

 

[IWannaKnow]

1) If she were hanging, I don't understand how that could be

2) It fits the theory of her being prone, face down, for longer than 18 minutes

I am NOT an ME and do not usually deal with death however. It just doesn't seem plausible to em. Not impossible, but not plausible.:waitasec:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/09/19/websleuths-radio

It is talked about around the 67 min mark. IDK. I listened to this several times, and am still confused about that point.

 

[IWannaKnow]

Are you saying cut down after rigor but before lividity set?

Yes. Livor mortis will not 'set' for 8 - 12 hours postmortem. It has to set to create the pattern and if the body is moved before then the pattern will not necessarily show. This is my understanding.

I really don't know enough about any of this... but I posted one very old article where livor mortis will set in in one place and if the body is moved before being set, it will start to disappear. Perhaps it can partially set in one place, the body is moved and set in another place - the result is livor mortis set in two different spots because of two different body positions after death??????

It depends upon how long the body sat before being moved. If under the crucial time frame of 8 hours, the uncoagulated blood will simply re-settle into the lowest area. If the body is moved during this window of time (8-12 hours) then you can get different patterns.

 

[sorrell skye]

You got me there TorisMom. The legs should have fallen together if she was not that far advanced in rigor, which she shouldn't have been if TOD was approximately 3am. However, we don't know exactly when these photos were taken.

According to News 8, when they reviewed the helicopter footage these photos are taken from, they said the footage was taken @ approximately 4:45 p.m., IIRC.

It still doesn't explain why her knees were bent after she was cut down & laid on the ground. IMO, her knees should have been straight, but I'm not an expert on rigor mortis. I wish Dr. Wecht would weigh in on this.

Tricia - we need another radio program (hint hint ).

 

[elementry]

The only other possible conclusion is that he laid her in the grass that way and since she laid there for 12 hours, rigor could have set in during that time. That would also change the pattern from livor mortis. I'm proper irritated that the ME waited until 7:00 to show up at the scene! I can't imagine what was SOOOOO important that he needed to wait that long.

I wonder if LE knew that the hospital was going to file paperwork with CPS?

I've got a question, if anybody knows the answer: How large is the Medical Examiner's office? How many employees? On their website I can't seem to find any names or details:

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/me/index.html


In a different document search I see a man named Glenn Wagner listed as Chief Medical Examiner:

http://tinyurl.com/3h257en

So Jonathan Lucas is not the top dog I presume? I see he is listed as the Forensic pathology fellowship director under the "jobs" link at their website. That's the only name I found listed anywhere on their site, but I may have missed a roster link or something.

Dr. Lucas seemed to me a little green himself , or at least well younger than the grizzled vets I've seen presiding at many trials on true TV. Was he handpicked to deliver this particular report on Max and Rebecca?

 

[SunnieRN]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/09/19/websleuths-radio

It is talked about around the 67 min mark. IDK. I listened to this several times, and am still confused about that point.

I have listened to that also, and I am totally confused, as it seems to go against what we know about livor.

Sorrell, I think you have a great idea, and where is Cynic??!! I know he could make this clear...lol!:waitasec:

 

[time]

Yes. Livor mortis will not 'set' for 8 - 12 hours postmortem. It has to set to create the pattern and if the body is moved before then the pattern will not necessarily show. This is my understanding.



It depends upon how long the body sat before being moved. If under the crucial time frame of 8 hours, the uncoagulated blood will simply re-settle into the lowest area. If the body is moved during this window of time (8-12 hours) then you can get different patterns.

Thank you so much for the expertise and explanations.

 

[jjenny]

I don't believe there are any discrepancies in the photos. Her legs appear to be bend in all photos.

 

[sorrell skye]

I don't believe there are any discrepancies in the photos. Her legs appear to be bend in all photos.

I agree. When I look @ photos # 3, 4, & 5, her knees are bent in all three photos.

 

[SophieRose]

I've got a question, if anybody knows the answer: How large is the Medical Examiner's office? How many employees? On their website I can't seem to find any names or details:

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/me/index.html


In a different document search I see a man named Glenn Wagner listed as Chief Medical Examiner:

http://tinyurl.com/3h257en

So Jonathan Lucas is not the top dog I presume? I see he is listed as the Forensic pathology fellowship director under the "jobs" link at their website. That's the only name I found listed anywhere on their site, but I may have missed a roster link or something.

Dr. Lucas seemed to me a little green himself , or at least well younger than the grizzled vets I've seen presiding at many trials on true TV. Was he handpicked to deliver this particular report on Max and Rebecca?

Chief Medical Examiner has been vacant since Feb 2010, they just hired a new one.

http://newsblog.projo.com/2011/09/ri-hires-san-diego-pathologist.html

 

[deanna82437]

Chief Medical Examiner has been vacant since Feb 2010, they just hired a new one.

http://newsblog.projo.com/2011/09/ri-hires-san-diego-pathologist.html

That article is from Providence, RI. They hired a SD pathologist to fill the position in RI which has been vacant since 02/2010.

 

[SophieRose]

I've got a question, if anybody knows the answer: How large is the Medical Examiner's office? How many employees? On their website I can't seem to find any names or details:

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/me/index.html


In a different document search I see a man named Glenn Wagner listed as Chief Medical Examiner:

http://tinyurl.com/3h257en

So Jonathan Lucas is not the top dog I presume? I see he is listed as the Forensic pathology fellowship director under the "jobs" link at their website. That's the only name I found listed anywhere on their site, but I may have missed a roster link or something.

Dr. Lucas seemed to me a little green himself , or at least well younger than the grizzled vets I've seen presiding at many trials on true TV. Was he handpicked to deliver this particular report on Max and Rebecca?

Here's some info on the SD County ME. There are 60 employees that work within five divisions.

http://thename.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=795&Itemid=27

Thanks, Deanna82437, for correcting me on the posting of that incorrect data on the Chief ME position.

 

[cynic]

I have listened to that also, and I am totally confused, as it seems to go against what we know about livor.

Sorrell, I think you have a great idea, and where is Cynic??!! I know he could make this clear...lol!:waitasec:

Hey Sunnie, I don’t know if I can make this clear, but I’ll give it a try.

From the autopsy report:
Livor mortis is posterior, red and fixed. There is also red livor mortis on the upper chest.

The autopsy report statement with respect to lividity makes sense given the fact that AS cut Rebecca down and laid her down in the court yard.
Normally a person who is on their back will, of course, not have their hands under their pelvis as we see here, but rather to the sides which will leave the body in a completely horizontal position, (barring any tilt to the surface that they have been placed on.)
This would then produce a staining pattern in the posterior of the body only. The additional livor mortis on the upper chest, IMO, is the result of RZ tilting her body back as the result of the placement of her hands.
You can try this yourselves. Lie on your back, angle your legs at approximately 90 degrees, place your arms/hands in the position they would be if they were tied behind you and note that there is now a slight tilt to your body. (RZ also apparently had a twist to her left from her waist, rotating her pelvis and legs.)
The tilt backward is not drastic, but it would allow blood to gravitate back all the way from the upper legs to the back and essentially “spill over” to the upper chest.
In the illustrations below, I tried with only a limited degree of success in depicting that RZ would be tilted back as a result of her hands and arms being beneath her.
The illustration with a tilted bottle is a very crude but somewhat analogous depiction of the loading of the superior vena cava with blood from the lower portions of the body and subsequent “spill over” to the upper chest.

Working through this has left me with something I can’t explain. I would expect lividity in the lower legs given that she hung for several hours and her subsequent position (with bent legs) in the courtyard would not have allowed for a gravitational shift of blood from her lower legs to any other part of the body.