Photo discrepancies

[jjenny]

So do we have any idea how her legs ended up bended like that?
If she was hanging 2 feet off the ground, as LE claims, why are her legs bend the way they are?

 

[cynic]

So do we have any idea how her legs ended up bended like that?
If she was hanging 2 feet off the ground, as LE claims, why are her legs bend the way they are?

She ended up in the courtyard in (probably) one of two ways, either she was carried or dragged.
If she was carried, she may have been carried in the following way, (which would account for her legs being bent,) and deposited on the grass without straightening the legs.

I came across this picture which also addresses the issue of her legs being bent together or apart. I believe that unless she was fully on her side, which she was not, then her legs would be apart.

 

[Wendy101]

Cynic... I just have to say you ROCK!!:rocker:

 

[Rhyme & Reason]

Cynic is da bomb!

 

[SunnieRN]

Cynic, I know I am dense, but even if she died at three, as the ME and LE suggest, and hung for 3.5 hours, then there should be lividity in the feet and lower legs, correct?

I know that after only 3.5 hours, livor is not fully set, but some effects should have still been present, correct?:waitasec:

Thank you for the bottle demonstration and the pictures. It looked to me as if Rebecca was further on her side, but now I can understand the lividity on the back.

 

[jjenny]

She ended up in the courtyard in (probably) one of two ways, either she was carried or dragged.
If she was carried, she may have been carried in the following way, (which would account for her legs being bent,) and deposited on the grass without straightening the legs.

I came across this picture which also addresses the issue of her legs being bent together or apart. I believe that unless she was fully on her side, which she was not, then her legs would be apart.

But we know she was already in rigor by the time police and fire department arrived on the scene. Which should mean she was already in rigor by the time Adam found her, since he called 911 soon after he found her. Would her legs even bend if she were carried?

 

[cynic]

Cynic, I know I am dense, but even if she died at three, as the ME and LE suggest, and hung for 3.5 hours, then there should be lividity in the feet and lower legs, correct?

I know that after only 3.5 hours, livor is not fully set, but some effects should have still been present, correct?:waitasec:

Sunnie you are NOT dense. You are a smart and insightful poster.
Re the lividity, you are absolutely right and I did mention it in my post:
"Working through this has left me with something I can’t explain. I would expect lividity in the lower legs given that she hung for several hours and her subsequent position (with bent legs) in the courtyard would not have allowed for a gravitational shift of blood from her lower legs to any other part of the body."

Thank you for the bottle demonstration and the pictures. It looked to me as if Rebecca was further on her side, but now I can understand the lividity on the back.

Please don't let my horrendous atistic skills dissuade you. I would say that RZ's left knee was either touching or within a few inches of touching the grass and her right leg was at an approximate 30 - 45 degree angle. IMO her upper back was in full contact with the ground.

 

[cynic]

But we know she was already in rigor by the time police and fire department arrived on the scene. Which should mean she was already in rigor by the time Adam found her, since he called 911 soon after he found her. Would her legs even bend if she were carried?

The autopsy report is unfortunately vague with respect to this. From the AR, “Coronado Fire Department personnel responded, felt rigor mortis in her jaw (no other areas were checked) and advised that CPR be stopped.”
Also, “At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed. Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for the decedent's position."
As you say, she was already in rigor, however, if it was at the earliest stages, carrying RZ with bent knees would not be an issue. (Rigor involving the knees may have been as much as a further 2, or so, hours away.)
Rigor mortis is progressive and generally follows a predictable sequence.
Typically, two or three hours after a person dies the process begins and progresses through small muscle mass much more quickly than large muscle mass. As a result, it is first evident in the face, lower jaw and neck, followed by the shoulders, arms, legs, and hips. Within the arms and legs the pattern continues with muscles involving wrist and ankle movement first and then muscles that control elbows and knees.

 

[Sharyne]

I wonder just how much any of them (our POI's) would know about RM, would they know that moving the body would affect it? Sort of like the possibility of being strangled being covered up by the hanging? I'm thinking like these things were AFTER Rebecca died.

 

[SunnieRN]

The autopsy report is unfortunately vague with respect to this. From the AR, “Coronado Fire Department personnel responded, felt rigor mortis in her jaw (no other areas were checked) and advised that CPR be stopped.”
Also, “At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed. Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for the decedent's position."
As you say, she was already in rigor, however, if it was at the earliest stages, carrying RZ with bent knees would not be an issue. (Rigor involving the knees may have been as much as a further 2, or so, hours away.)
Rigor mortis is progressive and generally follows a predictable sequence.
Two or three hours after a person dies the process begins and progresses through small muscle mass much more quickly than large muscle mass. As a result, it is first evident in the face, lower jaw and neck, followed by the shoulders, arms, legs, and hips. Within the arms and legs the pattern continues with muscles involving wrist and ankle movement first and then muscles that control elbows and knees.

Cynic, you are amazing!! Anyone who can allow me to understand any of this, has to be!!!

I do have a question for you. Two actually my friend. First, when do you think Rebecca died? Do you think LE has it 'right' at 3 am? Or do you think it was closer to when people heard screams, around 11:30?

Second, Do you think she died when she was hung?

Thanks!!:seeya: Hope all is well with you! We need another radio show, where members can call in to ask you questions. ;-)

 

[houndstooth]

According to News 8, when they reviewed the helicopter footage these photos are taken from, they said the footage was taken @ approximately 4:45 p.m., IIRC.

It still doesn't explain why her knees were bent after she was cut down & laid on the ground. IMO, her knees should have been straight, but I'm not an expert on rigor mortis. I wish Dr. Wecht would weigh in on this.

Tricia - we need another radio program (hint hint ).

Cut down and then laid on the ground to be contaminated?

I don't understand how a body once found like that would have ever been left unattended for these photos to have occured. The body would have been surrounded by photographers, forensics, detectives...SOMEBODY!.

So what gives? There is no one anywhere near the body which I find awfully strange as do the photographs themselves.

 

[jjenny]

Cut down and then laid on the ground to be contaminated?

I don't understand how a body once found like that would have ever been left unattended for these photos to have occured. The body would have been surrounded by photographers, forensics, detectives...SOMEBODY!.

So what gives? There is no one anywhere near the body which I find awfully strange as do the photographs themselves.

AS cut her down and put her on the ground, not the police. But police let her lay there for hours and hours.

 

[sorrell skye]

Cut down and then laid on the ground to be contaminated?

I don't understand how a body once found like that would have ever been left unattended for these photos to have occured. The body would have been surrounded by photographers, forensics, detectives...SOMEBODY!.

So what gives? There is no one anywhere near the body which I find awfully strange as do the photographs themselves.

I know Hound - there has been much outrage that LE left her body in the courtyard unshielded from the media helicopters & neighbors on roofs to take photos for 12+ hours after LE arrived on the scene @ 6:53 a.m. Furthermore, according to the autopsy report, the ME didn't arrive on the crime scene until 1914 hours (7:14 p.m.) - more than 12 hours after Rebecca's body was found bound, gagged, & hanged from the guest bedroom balcony. Outrageous.

 

[houndstooth]

I know Hound - there has been much outrage that LE left her body in the courtyard unshielded from the media helicopters & neighbors on roofs to take photos for 12+ hours after LE arrived on the scene @ 6:53 a.m. Furthermore, according to the autopsy report, the ME didn't arrive on the crime scene until 1914 hours (7:14 p.m.) - more than 12 hours after Rebecca's body was found bound, gagged, & hanged from the guest bedroom balcony. Outrageous.

You mean that LE doesn't have some sort of sterile tarp to lay a body on?

DIDN'T ARRIVE FOR 12 HOURS AFTER IT WAS FOUND??? (sorry for yelling)

Why?

 

[justice be served]

You mean that LE doesn't have some sort of sterile tarp to lay a body on?

DIDN'T ARRIVE FOR 12 HOURS AFTER IT WAS FOUND??? (sorry for yelling)

Why?

The outrage we all feel started that very morning Rebecca was found. The lack of respect for Rebecca has been beyond appalling and now that autopsies and search warrants have been released there are more questions than ever about how LE could have ruled this a suicide. I didn't want to believe the worst when this all started and I've been following it since Day 1 because I have close friends that know the people in question but I have become a believer in the fact she was murdered. It's just an exceptionally terrible case and all of us want the truth to come out.

 

[sdcali]

You mean that LE doesn't have some sort of sterile tarp to lay a body on?

DIDN'T ARRIVE FOR 12 HOURS AFTER IT WAS FOUND??? (sorry for yelling)

Why?

That is what we are all having such a hard time with, houndstooth. There are so many mis-steps in this "investigation".

 

[cynic]

I do have a question for you. Two actually my friend. First, when do you think Rebecca died? Do you think LE has it 'right' at 3 am? Or do you think it was closer to when people heard screams, around 11:30?

One of the variables affecting rigor onset time is the ambient temperature that that the body is exposed to. In this case, the temperature outdoors was 60 degrees and RZ was completely naked. This would slow the onset of rigor. As a matter of fact, “below 50 degrees it is said to be exceptional for rigor to develop.”
Guide to Forensic Medicine & Toxicology By B. Jain, page 54
A TOD of 11:30 PM is possible; I do think that given the conditions that an onset time of 5 or 6 hours is more likely than 3 or 4.

You might find the following interesting:
As a measure of time of death, rigor is very unreliable.
Like all chemical processes it is temperature-dependent. In warm conditions, rigor mortis appears quickly and passes off more quickly, due to the early onset of decomposition. In the cold, it may be delayed markedly and in freezing conditions, may not appear at all (though actual freezing of the body fluids in extreme frost may cause stiffening). When a cold body is brought into a warmer environment, then true rigor may quickly appear.
In average temperature conditions, rigor may be detected within 2-6 hours and be generally present within the first 8-12 hours though very wide variations can occur.
Fully developed rigor may last in “average” conditions for a further 24 hours and then begin to fade during the next day. The old rule of thumb that rigor takes 12 hours to come on lasts for 12 hours and takes 12 hours to pass off” can be relied upon only for its unreliability!
Rigor frequently is present up to the third or fourth day and may still be detectable after a week in some cases, especially in cold conditions. It is impossible for rigor and signs of decomposition to co-exist.
Virtually every textbook will quote a different range and all can be justified due to the lack of constancy of this labile phenomenon. An analysis by Mallach of opinions in textbooks and medical papers over a long period showed variations of between 30 minutes and seven hours for the onset of rigor, of 2-20 hours for full rigidity; and 24 – 96 hours for persistence of full rigor.
The time to fade from full rigor varied from 24 -192 hours, so it can be seen that the evidential value is slight.
One fairly reliable fact about rigor is that it comes on much more rapidly after death from electrocution - and also tends to appear quickly after severe exertion before death.
In children and frail, elderly people, it is frequently faint and transitory, depending to a considerable extent on the amount of muscle mass present.
As an index of time since death, it has very limited value and any opinion giving an exact time or a range of units of less than 3-5 hours during the first day in an untenable over-interpretation.
A more justifiable rule of thumb is that if a body is flaccid and warm, it has probably been dead less than six hours; if flaccid and cold, it has been dead more than about 2- 3 days. If cold and stiff, it is likely to have died between half a day and two days earlier.
Lawyers Guide to Forensic Medicine By Bernard Knight, page 193

Second, Do you think she died when she was hung?

The only way to answer that question is to try to make sense of the neck injuries.
There are issues that are difficult to explain with the hanging scenario alone, as has been discussed often, including fractures below the ligature line and very extensive petechiae.
These may be more readily explained by a prior strangulation event which may have resulted in the death of RZ.
I guess what I’m saying is that until such time as I hear a plausible explanation for all of the injuries to her neck being the exclusive result of hanging, I can’t rule out the possibility that RZ died prior to being hung and some of those injuries certainly make a compelling case for manual strangulation.

 

[SunnieRN]

Cynic, thank you so much!! :yourock::fireworks::aktion:

 

[Sharyne]

I have been following a case of a woman who fell down a stairs. Her husband found her at about 3:30 pm, was declared dead at 4:02 pm and the ME showed up at around 11:30 pm. So, that's only about 8 hours. The story is in the Parking Lot.

 

[Zale]

I have been following a case of a woman who fell down a stairs. Her husband found her at about 3:30 pm, was declared dead at 4:02 pm and the ME showed up at around 11:30 pm. So, that's only about 8 hours. The story is in the Parking Lot.

Where do we find this story? What's the Parking Lot?