Premeditation

[wonders]

Applying three pieces of tape instead instead of one very well thought out piece of tape (which would have been wrapped around the entire head) strongly suggests a serendipitous application.

Do remember too that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together behind her back. Nor were her hands tied or taped to her waist. The fact is that her hands were not tied or taped together in any way. In a murder where tape was going to be used to sufficate someone, a planned approach would be to ensure the victim could not use their hands to pull the tape away.

Wudge respectfully applying three pieces of tape with heart stickers just cannot be a big mistake.

We also don't know for sure if Caylees wrists and feet weren't bound with tape. IIRC there was wadded up duct tape if you will found that may have been used for the wrists and feet.

 

[Wudge]

I have never seen confirmation in any of the docs that ascertains that Caylee was not bound? I am not saying she was, simply that I do not believe it has been stated as fact that Caylee' wasn't bound?

If I am wrong and missed that, I hope someone can provide me with a link so that I can reconsider thoughts.

I'd also like to add that I do not believe there can be anything at all serendipitous about duct tape being applied to a body - ante or post mortem. I can only assume that while well educated, you don't really understand what serendipitous means? And I don't mean that at all rudely. I simply think that word cannot be forced to fit in the context in which it was used.

To think that Caylee's hands were tied, one would have to believe that LE and the D.A.'s office decided to withhold smoking gun evidence while leaking everything else. That's not how D.A.s play high-profile cases.

FWIW

(You might enjoy happenstance over serendipity.)

 

[Tracey276]

I have never seen confirmation in any of the docs that ascertains that Caylee was not bound? I am not saying she was, simply that I do not believe it has been stated as fact that Caylee' wasn't bound?

If I am wrong and missed that, I hope someone can provide me with a link so that I can reconsider thoughts.

I'd also like to add that I do not believe there can be anything at all serendipitous about duct tape being applied to a body - ante or post mortem. I can only assume that while well educated, you don't really understand what serendipitous means? And I don't mean that at all rudely. I simply think that word cannot be forced to fit in the context in which it was used.

your post has put me in deep thought about this now. We know there were other pieces of duct tape found. I am not sure where they were found exactly. Were they found in the bag with Caylee? Were they found outside the bag in the area? I would say either way, we know animals had gotten to the bag and could have chewed the tape and it also deteriorated. I would never assume, with only the facts we know now, that Caylee was NOT bound at least on the hands. Does anyone know more about other pieces of tape found? I will be doing a lot of searching on this.
Because for whatever reason, we KNOW Caylee's mouth and nose were covered with duct tape. I can see NO reason for EVER EVER doing that unless with a callous, evil and premeditated intent! What else would one think would happen, putting duct tape over a child's mouth and nose?

 

[Brini]

I have never seen confirmation in any of the docs that ascertains that Caylee was not bound? I am not saying she was, simply that I do not believe it has been stated as fact that Caylee' wasn't bound?

If I am wrong and missed that, I hope someone can provide me with a link so that I can reconsider thoughts.

I'd also like to add that I do not believe there can be anything at all serendipitous about duct tape being applied to a body - ante or post mortem. I can only assume that while well educated, you don't really understand what serendipitous means? And I don't mean that at all rudely. I simply think that word cannot be forced to fit in the context in which it was used.

I don't see how serendipitous fits, either.

Serendipity is the effect by which one accidentally discovers something fortunate, especially while looking for something entirely unrelated.

Example: Antidepressants were serendipitously discovered during antihistamine experiments.

 

[Wudge]

Wudge respectfully applying three pieces of tape with heart stickers just cannot be a big mistake.

We also don't know for sure if Caylees wrists and feet weren't bound with tape. IIRC there was wadded up duct tape if you will found that may have been used for the wrists and feet.

A heart sticker does not suggest a sinister intention. It suggests the opposite.

 

[Imbackon]

Wadded up areas of tape, or not wadded up areas of tape.
What does it prove?
I would not put too much stock in either theory, as it sure would be a bummer if pics of the tape, prior to being removed from around Little Caylees face show wadded areas, as oppposed to those areas being more smoothed out for the pics we see now, what will we say this proves then?

 

[ThoughtElf]

To think that Caylee's hands were tied, one would have to believe that LE and the D.A.'s office decided to withhold smoking gun evidence while leaking everything else. That's not how D.A.s play high-profile cases.

FWIW

(You might enjoy happenstance over serendipity.)

I look at it differently. I do not see how LE could release anything about Caylee being bound, if they aren't sure whether or not she was. Dependent upon where and how the other pieces of duck tape were positioned when found, it might be hard to conclude with certainty and release that as fact.

I also do not see fulfilling the Sunshine Law requirements as leaking evidence, but that is just my perception of the current information that has been released.

:wink: And no, I do not think happenschance works for me either, but I like that you offfered an alternate to consider.

If you're willing, would you outline a scenario you can envision that would cause duct tape to be applied to a body (living or dead) in a serendipitous or happenschance manner? I'm willing to consider it, I just can't come up with a workable image of that.

 

[njustice]

Do remember too that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together behind her back. Nor were her hands tied or taped to her waist. The fact is that her hands were not tied or taped together in any way.

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but respectfully, we don't know that her hands weren't tied. It cannot be stated as fact that her hands were not tied or taped together. Her bones were scattered everywhere and it is an absolute, though not confirmed possiblity that Caylee could have been restrained.

 

[cecybeans]

Applying three pieces of tape instead instead of one very well thought out piece of tape (which would have been wrapped around the entire head) strongly suggests a serendipitous application.

Do remember too that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together behind her back. Nor were her hands tied or taped to her waist. The fact is that her hands were not tied or taped together in any way. In a murder where tape was going to be used to sufficate someone, a planned approach would be to ensure the victim could not use their hands to pull the tape away.

I can easily imagine straddling a toddler and using one's knees to pin down their arms. I don't think physical restraints like tape or ligatures would be necessary at all.

 

[Brini]

A heart sticker does not suggest a sinister intention. It suggests the opposite.

How so?

 

[Sdavidson11]

I don't know that it matters, but actually the strips were different lengths.. from a little over 7 inches to over 9 inches.. but that detail is insignificant, compared to the fact that all 3 pieces were placed over a little childs face.. truly a terrible, horrible thing for anyone to do. Can anyone imagine their own 'mummy' doing such a thing to them?

I have said this before on a tape thread, my experience with a perp duct taping my mouth and eyes before raping me was surreal. As a human your mind just can not come to grips with what is happening. Even though I had a gun to my head and a knife to my throat, my mind was in a different place. With poor sweet Caylee that third piece of tape killed her and that is JMO from my experience. When the tape was placed over my mouth it did cover just under my nose and it was hard to breathe. This has to be viewed as a premeditated act, with the third piece killing her. Could KC have made a game out of this and Caylee allowed her mommy to do this to her? I agree that just as the first piece of tape was cut from the role it is premeditation.:furious:

 

[Wudge]

I can easily imagine straddling a toddler and using one's knees to pin down their arms. I don't think physical restraints like tape or ligatures would be necessary at all.

The problem prosecutors have with "imagine" is that it is not evidence.

 

[milliac]

What really gets me is afterwards she watched that horror movie with to tony, showing that man being killed with duct tape over his face. Can't get much colder than that!

 

[njustice]

I can easily imagine straddling a toddler and using one's knees to pin down their arms. I don't think physical restraints like tape or ligatures would be necessary at all.

Yes, anyone who has had to endure taking their child to a doctor's office to gets shots knows that a lot can be done to pin a child down, even under painful circumstances

 

[JBean]

As much as I hate to say it, duct taping the mouth isn't necessarily done with the intent to kill.

Indiana Teacher Fired for Duct Taping Kid's Mouth Shut
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480259,00.html

Disabled child hurt when stepfather rips duct tape from his mouth
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13169561

Child's Mouth Duct-Taped At Day Care, Says Family
LINDEN, Tenn. -- The parents of a Perry County child said their 4-year-old son had his mouth duct-taped by his teacher while attending day care.
http://www.wsmv.com/news/20949720/detail.html

 

[Brini]

To think that Caylee's hands were tied, one would have to believe that LE and the D.A.'s office decided to withhold smoking gun evidence while leaking everything else. That's not how D.A.s play high-profile cases.

FWIW

(You might enjoy happenstance over serendipity.)

Which means that it happened by chance. No, the taping of the baby's face was deliberate, and carried out over a few minutes. Long enough for pre-med.

 

[Brini]

As much as I hate to say it, duct taping the mouth isn't necessarily done with the intent to kill.

Indiana Teacher Fired for Duct Taping Kid's Mouth Shut
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480259,00.html

Disabled child hurt when stepfather rips duct tape from his mouth
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13169561

Child's Mouth Duct-Taped At Day Care, Says Family
LINDEN, Tenn. -- The parents of a Perry County child said their 4-year-old son had his mouth duct-taped by his teacher while attending day care.
http://www.wsmv.com/news/20949720/detail.html

JellyBean, How can duct taping of all the airways (nose and mouth) NOT kill? All of Caylee's airways were occluded.

 

[njustice]

The problem prosecutors have with "imagine" is that it is not evidence.

Staring at long strips of duct tape and knowing that they were wrapped around a child's head is enough evidence for me...however, it is true that only the jury will get to see exactly how they were placed and that will make a huge impression on how the jury perceives the act.

 

[cecybeans]

The problem prosecutors have with "imagine" is that it is not evidence.

Very true, but if it is possible it would explain the lack of bondage you seem to feel is critical. Since it is not necessary to use restraints to duct tape a toddler, the lack of restraints found at the crime scene therefore becomes irrelevant.

 

[Brini]

The problem prosecutors have with "imagine" is that it is not evidence.

Well, there are photos of the duct tape placement. I'm sure there will be a demo with mock up. And, physicians to testify to the effect of the occlusion of the airways. Maybe Dr. G.

Sorry, hon, but the placement of the duct tape WILL be presented and received as evidence.