Isn't it, though!
Ramsey Clothing Journey
- Thread starter UKGuy
- Start date
Isn't it, though!
KoldKase,
Thanks for your links. I read over some of the posts and if true then they show some events in a different light.
Now I reckon the size-12's are like the pineapple, but bigger because they break the case, they demonstrate that Patsy lied, and better that she lied from a position of ignorance.
Another hint as to why the size-12's are so important is that Holly Smith has never opined on them or any details regarding the existence of Bloomingdales size-6's?
Neither has Steve Thomas.
Now the important fact to establish is which pack of size-12's was returned an opened or unopened pack? An unopened pack implies that the opened pack is still missing and an opened pack means that crime-scene evidence is potentially being returned.
In a sense it does not matter because we know Patsy lied to the interviewer, any size-12's returned is to lend some semblance of consistency to Patsy's stream of lies in the Atlanta interview.
imo JonBenet was probably manually asphyxiated in John's bedroom, wiped down and redressed therein with the size-12's. Bear in mind that Patsy was ignorant to the fact that JonBenet had been redressed in the size-12's.
Referring to the possibility that Patsy purchased the size-12's for herself so to look sexy wearing them. This tells us that John may have had prior knowledge of the size-12's, something people have always queried.
Some basic assumptions are that if Patsy did not redress JonBenet in those size-12's then it was one of: John, Burke or an intruder? Now we can rule out an intruder because Patsy could never confer with, never mind lie for an intruder. So that leaves John or Burke. Given the relative sophistication of the staging and the fact that the size-12's were left on JonBenet, this implies that we are not dealing with a coverup for Burke, else the big mistake regarding the size-12's would have been spotted and removed. So guess what that leaves John!
The whys and wherefors regarding the size-12's may be interesting, even a touch salacious e.g. Patsy wearing the size-12's, but what really matters is that no size-12's were found in JonBenet's panty drawer and none in the rest of the house. Despite Patsy stating that a second unopened package of size-12's should be located somewhere in the house. She is saying this because she has stated that JonBenet has already been given the size-12's.
Now I'm willing to bet the house on Patsy purchasing Bloomingdales size-6's for JonBenet during their New York trip. So would expect to hear that some were found in her panty drawer and critically that some may have been found in her bedroom dresser drawer. Again a phone call to Holly Smith asking if any size-12's were found in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer would indirectly confirm this. If you read the interview again note the number of times that Patsy is asked precisely when did she purchase the size-12's for JonBenet. Why might that be important because the absence of size-12's from JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer, but the inclusion of soiled Bloomingdales size-6's tell another story, hence possibly why no details have been made public?
I reckon just alike the pineapple tells us JonBenet was awake and walking about the Ramsey house, when the parents want us to believe she was asleep in bed. The size-12's tell us that it was a male who redressed JonBenet, not Patsy, and by the process of elimination that male appears to be John Ramsey?
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PR would not have fit into the size 12-14 Bloomies either. They are still children's undies, even if they fit a 12- year old. While it is true that some 12 year olds are the size of adults, children like that would need to wear women's undies.
I keep re-reading that Atlanta interview, UKGuy- you state that PR says she did NOT buy any size 6 panties in NYC, but I am not seeing that. I see her stating numerous times that she DOESN'T REMEMBER how many sets she bought. I have not seen her say that she did not buy any size 6s.
Yes, I ASSUME PR bought the Bloomies for JBR in her correct size, so yes, it may be erroneous. That's why it's called an "assumption", because it is not a fact.
DeeDee249,
Patsy states that she purchased two packs of size-12 Bloomingdale underwear, one for JonBenet at her request and one for her niece Jenny. Nowhere does she state she purchased size-6 underwear. Patsy's memory goes when the questions get tough.
I guess thats my point she neither denies nor states that she purchased size-6 underwear. So any assumptions based on the size-6 underwear may be very weak?
The reason highlighted this, even although I agree with you, is that Patsy nowhere states she purchased size-6 underwear. She states that she purchased two packs of size-12's, and reconfirms this to the interviewer. e.g. its erroneous in the context of the interview, more than likely not in every day life.
The size-6's removed from JonBenet's bathroom drawer may contain Bloomingdales size-6's, unless you have an itemized reciept what can we assume about this?
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KoldKase
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I'm still researching stuff on this, but wanted to thank you, UKGuy, for bringing up Holly Smith. I think she is one of the most honest, unbiased, uncorrupted people who finally talked about the evidence of sexual abuse in this case openly and as a named source inside the investigation.
One question: is it not more likely that the too large Bloomies package was located where the child was WIPED DOWN AND REDRESSED?
Hm. Now I have to think about the sequence of events again.
We know the paintbrush was broken and tied onto the garrote in the basement--paintbrush shards on the floor by the paint tray, green paint strip on the chin, from the paintbrush/paint in the tray. We know the knots were tied onto the neck, not tied and then the noose looped around the head. We know the killer used the paintbrush to assault JonBenet before he/she broke it, because a rougher, broken end would have done more damage, etc. We know the child was on her back when sexually assaulted with the paintbrush, and she was on her stomach when the cord handle was pulled to finish her off. As far as we know, but with jams as the source, it's arguable, of course, JonBenet expired near the cellar door and paint tray because her urine was found there, voided at death, I assume...again arguable, but the urine stains were on the front of her longjohns, so she was on her stomach when that happened as well. We also know she had no defensive bruising, abrasions, or injuries identified at autopsy.
So the deduction of the sequence of events is this, as I see it: JonBenet was brought or led into the basement, then laid on her back unconscious by the paint tray at some point, dying from the head blow cracking her skull 8.5 inches and causing severe brain swelling and damage; the killer undressed her and used the paintbrush on her which created the acute vaginal injuries; she was turned over and the cord tied on at the neck, then the paintbrush broken and the middle section tied onto the cord "handle"; counterforce was applied to hold her down while the cord "handle" was pulled to tighten the garrote; she died; she was then turned back over, wiped down and redressed; then her wrists were tied and she was laid in the cellar room on her blanket, which was laid on the floor under her, then wrapped "papoose-style" over her. During the sequence of events, she drolled down her face on the right side; the duct tape was applied, last I would think, after goodbyes were said; the door was closed and latched at the top.
This is my theory of the sequence of the critical events after the head blow, which I have no solid theory as to whom, where, or why that happened, just several possibilities like everyone else. I follow the evidence as I understand it to come to these details, but I may be wrong, of course, probably am, in fact. Just trying to think it through.
Why I have posted this is because I'm trying to figure out when the Bloomies would have been put on JonBenet in the course of this madness that night. I simply do not believe she wore those huge Bloomies to the Whites, that's absurd. So I obviously believe they were put on her after she returned home at some point. This is why I am trying to figure out where would they have been in the home: in JonBenet's bedroom or bathroom? In Patsy's drawer, if they were hers? Or in the basement, waiting to be sent away as a gift?
This is why I think it's important to know WHERE was the alleged Bloomies package "lost" all that time which the Ramseys claim they "found"; when was it "found", if there's any truth to that; where was it found? In the packed household boxes? If it was with basement items, then it was in the basement and likely pulled out to put on JonBenet when she was redressed, so who could have even known the Bloomies were there? If it was in JonBenet's suite, then that would be important, but why didn't LE find it and secure it with all the other panties they collected? If it was with Patsy's clothes, which might make sense, since the retired cop said to have "found" the package in one story, was hired by the Ramseys to find their clothes from that awful evening and morning to turn over to LE almost a year later, then that would be critical, as well.
Of course, the RST won't give any details. That's how we know it's important.
Okay, sorry I'm rambling. Just trying to work it through. Feel free to punch holes in these ideas.
One question: is it not more likely that the too large Bloomies package was located where the child was WIPED DOWN AND REDRESSED?
Hm. Now I have to think about the sequence of events again.
We know the paintbrush was broken and tied onto the garrote in the basement--paintbrush shards on the floor by the paint tray, green paint strip on the chin, from the paintbrush/paint in the tray. We know the knots were tied onto the neck, not tied and then the noose looped around the head. We know the killer used the paintbrush to assault JonBenet before he/she broke it, because a rougher, broken end would have done more damage, etc. We know the child was on her back when sexually assaulted with the paintbrush, and she was on her stomach when the cord handle was pulled to finish her off. As far as we know, but with jams as the source, it's arguable, of course, JonBenet expired near the cellar door and paint tray because her urine was found there, voided at death, I assume...again arguable, but the urine stains were on the front of her longjohns, so she was on her stomach when that happened as well. We also know she had no defensive bruising, abrasions, or injuries identified at autopsy.
So the deduction of the sequence of events is this, as I see it: JonBenet was brought or led into the basement, then laid on her back unconscious by the paint tray at some point, dying from the head blow cracking her skull 8.5 inches and causing severe brain swelling and damage; the killer undressed her and used the paintbrush on her which created the acute vaginal injuries; she was turned over and the cord tied on at the neck, then the paintbrush broken and the middle section tied onto the cord "handle"; counterforce was applied to hold her down while the cord "handle" was pulled to tighten the garrote; she died; she was then turned back over, wiped down and redressed; then her wrists were tied and she was laid in the cellar room on her blanket, which was laid on the floor under her, then wrapped "papoose-style" over her. During the sequence of events, she drolled down her face on the right side; the duct tape was applied, last I would think, after goodbyes were said; the door was closed and latched at the top.
This is my theory of the sequence of the critical events after the head blow, which I have no solid theory as to whom, where, or why that happened, just several possibilities like everyone else. I follow the evidence as I understand it to come to these details, but I may be wrong, of course, probably am, in fact. Just trying to think it through.
Why I have posted this is because I'm trying to figure out when the Bloomies would have been put on JonBenet in the course of this madness that night. I simply do not believe she wore those huge Bloomies to the Whites, that's absurd. So I obviously believe they were put on her after she returned home at some point. This is why I am trying to figure out where would they have been in the home: in JonBenet's bedroom or bathroom? In Patsy's drawer, if they were hers? Or in the basement, waiting to be sent away as a gift?
This is why I think it's important to know WHERE was the alleged Bloomies package "lost" all that time which the Ramseys claim they "found"; when was it "found", if there's any truth to that; where was it found? In the packed household boxes? If it was with basement items, then it was in the basement and likely pulled out to put on JonBenet when she was redressed, so who could have even known the Bloomies were there? If it was in JonBenet's suite, then that would be important, but why didn't LE find it and secure it with all the other panties they collected? If it was with Patsy's clothes, which might make sense, since the retired cop said to have "found" the package in one story, was hired by the Ramseys to find their clothes from that awful evening and morning to turn over to LE almost a year later, then that would be critical, as well.
Of course, the RST won't give any details. That's how we know it's important.
Okay, sorry I'm rambling. Just trying to work it through. Feel free to punch holes in these ideas.
JMO8778
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no hole-punching,that was great! I would only change one thing,and that is I think the cord on her wrists were applied much later..perhaps as late as 10am (when JR disappeared for a bit..). it would be logical to assume her arms were already in rigor when they were applied,as they were over her head.so it appears the wrist ligatures were an afterthought,IMO.perhaps to get rid of the rest of the cord??? the tape appears used,so...perhaps there was no more cord and tape left after that.
I think the opened gifts in the basement contained the underwear.more than one was opened b/c the stager was searching for them,unsure as to where exactly they were.
I just can't believe Patsy would buy a size 12 underwear for herself.I think it's just as she said...they were a gift for her niece.
IF she had gotten them for herself..(and I have never heard of a trend of dressing women as girls...),I would think they would have been a least a girls' large,(size 14-16).even so...I still doubt it.remember there are,and were then,other places to buy cute things at in women's sizes,esp. the ones that cater to older teens and young women,like Victoria's Secret and frederick's of hollywood.
I think the opened gifts in the basement contained the underwear.more than one was opened b/c the stager was searching for them,unsure as to where exactly they were.
I just can't believe Patsy would buy a size 12 underwear for herself.I think it's just as she said...they were a gift for her niece.
IF she had gotten them for herself..(and I have never heard of a trend of dressing women as girls...),I would think they would have been a least a girls' large,(size 14-16).even so...I still doubt it.remember there are,and were then,other places to buy cute things at in women's sizes,esp. the ones that cater to older teens and young women,like Victoria's Secret and frederick's of hollywood.
JMO8778
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..thanks for that link,Koldkase,it was interesting.
as far as the title,are the Stine's complicit,well,they sure do seem to be enjoying themselves..as do the Rams..in Michigan,after JB's murder,scroll down:
http://ruthees_library.tripod.com/shotgun.html
I don't buy Patsy's story...obviously they got caught having fun so soon afterwards,and she had to make something up.
as far as the title,are the Stine's complicit,well,they sure do seem to be enjoying themselves..as do the Rams..in Michigan,after JB's murder,scroll down:
http://ruthees_library.tripod.com/shotgun.html
I don't buy Patsy's story...obviously they got caught having fun so soon afterwards,and she had to make something up.
Ames
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I agree. I believe that rigor had already started to set in, and that is the reason for the space between her wrists, it was something like 17 inches of cord, or something like that. If she hadn't of been in rigor, I believe that her wrists would have been tied together (like a REAL kidnapper would do). The wrist cord, IMO..was most likely the last part of the staging...along with the RN.
KoldKase,
No problem, please tell everyone else about her. I'll be interested in the results of your research, I reckon we have a similar perspective on the case?
Holly Smith has written a book based on her experience working with the Sexual Abuse Team in Boulder, Colorado for well over twenty years.
Fire of the Five Hearts: A Memoir of Treating Incest
Supervisor at Boulder County Sexual Abuse Team
Holly Smith wrote up a report outlining her opinion as to whether JonBenet had been sexually abused, her vaginal trauma was not in question, more pertinent was whether it was recurring and chronic. The contents of this report never made it into Steve Thomas' book, nor has it been made public. Sufficient to remark that Holly Smith was removed from the investigation.
Yes, this is why I think this occurred upstairs in John's bedroom or at a stretch JAR's bedroom, since both may have contained the size-12's?
Patsy's ignorance surrounding the size-12's tells you she did not redress JonBenet in them, otherwise a more credible explanation would have been forthcoming.
Your sequence of critical events is consistent. I would only query the application of the paintbrush? It would be nice know if the missing piece was left inside JonBenet, this is something I suspect, and possibly one of the major reasons behind the redacting of the original autopsy report?
Your account of critical events in a sense may only describe the wine-cellar staging and not the location of any prior events. I reckon JonBenet was initially assaulted elsewhere, cleaned up, redressed then placed somewhere in the basement, where additional staging was fabricated e.g wine-cellar.
Well they must have been placed onto JonBenet prior to Patsy adding her staging elements to the wine-cellar mix, otherwise she would know all about the size-12's, and know to avoid telling the investigators that she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer, since she would also know that they had been removed from the house?
I agree with you. JonBenet never wore size-12 underwear to the White's, anyway that can be tested by using fiber analysis, from her black velvet pants.
The size-12's according to Patsy were purchased as a gift for her niece Jenny, later they were given to JonBenet, so according to Patsy they were not located in the basement, waiting to be wrapped.
They were not located in JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer, since the investigators stated:
Also thanks to Holly Smith's remarks we can assume no size-12's were found in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer. Any by extension her whole bedroom.
Basically there are no size-12's in JonBenet's immediate vicinity?
Now an important point to note is that no size-12's are recorded as being found anywhere in the house opened or unopened. This means JonBenet's killer removed the remaining size-12's, even if JonBenet dressed herself in the size-12's.
Also any xmas gift for Jenny need not be hidden away in the basement, it can be stored unopened in Patsy's dresser drawer? This can be an alternate explanation as to why no size-12's were discovered in the house, since if they were stored in Patsy's dresser drawer, maybe they walked out along with other of Patsy's clothing?
Also if John was aware that Patsy wore size-12's for reasons of fashion then he would be aware where they may be located?
So I reckon the size-12's were probably stored in one of Patsy's dresser drawers, or down in the basement. Remember John was down in the basement helping to move xmas-gifts so he would be aware of what might be what.
Evidentially the size-12's returned by the Ramsey's are probably redundant, it would probably be contested due to the length of time it took to return them. What would be interesting is whether the returned pack was opened or unopened, since the former is potential crime-scene evidence and the latter represents the second pack of size-12's, since she is on record saying she purchased one for JonBenet and one for her niece Jenny. Knowing which tells us what the Ramsey's want us to believe.
Jmpo, but I don't think Patsy lied about the Bloomies from a position of ignorance (ignorance meaning she had no idea that someone else (John) put them on JonBenet). I believe she knew exactly who redressed the victim and why. It was either her or John directed by her.
But since Patsy made the mistake of hiding the rest of the size 12 set, all she could do when questioned about them, was to talk her way out by being very evasive in her replies.
JMO8778
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I would think returning an open package would be far too incriminating..like an intruder opened them,or JB just happened to pull out the Wed. pair on her own? ..IMO,the statement they were trying to make was...1-that Patsy bought no size 6's of the same pattern as the size 12's (because truth is she did, and they were removed bf JB was redressed) 2-so if she bought no size 6's, then *both packages were size 12's and 3-this 'proves' it by turning in the other package.
the fact it was a package,and not just size 12 underwear that had been opened and taken out...IMO means the package the R's returned was unopened.
JMO8778
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I could otherwise agree IF Patsy had been more evasive..but...to say she actually put them in the bathroom drawer was a huge mistake on her part,one that required trying to amend that mistake by turning in another pack of underwear.a big 'oops' moment.
rashomon,
What you posted is ambiguous on two counts. So I'll restate my opnion.
Patsy prior to turning up for the Atlanta interview was already aware JonBenet had been redressed in size-12's e.g. either via the media or/and her legal team, take your pick?
This is privileged information, were you present that night?
You really must read the interview, you will be rewarded. Patsy is anything but evasive, although she does have recurring amnesia at points. She tells us that she purchased two packs of Bloomingdales size-12's on her trip to New York, and that she placed one of those packs into JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer!
So via the size-12's she links herself to the crime-scene!
There are no size-12's in JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer, and since Patsy arrives at the interview forearmed with the knowledge that someone had redressed JonBenet in size-12's, why should she concoct a story that may be falsified?
All she needs to say is I left the size-12's in the wine-cellar/basement. I guess the killer must have redressed JonBenet in them?
The facts are simple.
1. Patsy states she purchased size-12's from Bloomingdales.
2. JonBenet was discovered wearing a pair of size-12's
3. No size-12's were found in the Ramsey house.
Patsy lied to the interviewer about the size-12's, in such a maner that she was immediately contradicted. Why does she need to do that if it was her who redressed Jonbenet and disposed or hid the remaining pairs? Surely she could dream up some other explanation, even one involving JonBenet's killer e.g. he took the underwear with him as a trophy.
The only reason Patsy lied in the manner she did was because she is covering for someone else, and did not know the size-12's were missing or that just prior to the wine-cellar staging, someone had redressed JonBenet in those size-12's. If she knew she would have had cover story ready one that may not be correct but certainly one that could not be disputed never mind contradicted?
This why she starts forgetting stuff during the interview, she has already stated she purchased two packs of size-12 underwear, one for JonBenet at her request, and another as a gift for her niece Jenny. So in theory there should be 13 pairs of size-12's in the house, Patsy is queried on this indirectly when asked that there should be an unopened pack of size-12's lying somewhere in the house, Patsy agrees!
Patsy is attempting to keep her version of events consistent, and in doing so overcomes her amnesia.
So I reckon someone had already redressed JonBenet prior to her arriving in the wine-cellar. This is consistent with JonBenet being redressed in longjohns and wrapped in a blanket, simply not required unless you want to hide something e.g. the size-12's.
That is at the time of the wine-cellar staging Patsy was not aware that JonBenet was wearing size-12's!
JMO8778,
You could be right, it might go either way. How about Patsy claiming amnesia, and that she only actually purchased one pack of size-12's for her niece Jenny? So what is then returned is an open pack of size-12's?
If she wants to stand by her original statements then an unopened pack of size-12's should be returned?
The fact that they have to return the size-12's at all, should be a big red flag as to just how serious a mistake Patsy made during her interview.
JMO8778,
They could be? But since Patsy does not use the partially wrapped gifts in her explanation of the size-12's e.g. the intruder opened the gifts and removed the size-12's. Then until I'm told more about the status of those gifts e.g. were they unwrapped or had someone actually opened them? Its not possible to judge how important they might be.
Its so obvious that Patsy did not redress JonBenet in those size-12's, she is the one person in that house that you would expect not to do so!
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Koldcase, your version of events is pretty much my own, with one or two additional thoughts.
Yes, I also feel the size 12 Bloomies were right there in the basement where she was redressed, and I also believe urine was found on basement carpet outside the wineceller, near the paint tote. There is a corner of a gift wrapped box clearly visible IN the wineceller photo, close to the white blanket. No one, even an untidy person like PR, would put/hide gifts in that filthy, moldy room.
I think the swelling in her brain was considered NOT severe by all forensic specialists who read the report, and also by Mayer. There was MILD swelling and narrowing of the sulci and gyri, and this would not be the case if the swelling was severe- there was not enough time between the head blow and her death for the swelling to become more pronounced.
The wrist restraints were probably put on her after rigor had set in and her arms were fixed that far apart. The average person would never be able to break rigor, and if they did, evidence of the torn muscle fibers would be seen at autopsy and the coroner would know the body had been manipulated after death. Also, there were no marks on her wrists- those "restraints" had never been tied tight enough to press against her skin. If they had, the marks would be red like the ligature furrow on her neck if it happened while she was alive, or white if she was dead when they were put on (because of livor mortis, which in its blanching stage will push blood out from under any area under pressure. The white marks will remain even when the object causing the pressure is removed. If you look at JBR's bare back in the autopsy photos, you will see the white "stripes" left on her by the underwear elastic and wrinkles from the shirt.
But the neck cord and strangulation did happen when she was alive, or there'd be no petechiae.
Yes, I also feel the size 12 Bloomies were right there in the basement where she was redressed, and I also believe urine was found on basement carpet outside the wineceller, near the paint tote. There is a corner of a gift wrapped box clearly visible IN the wineceller photo, close to the white blanket. No one, even an untidy person like PR, would put/hide gifts in that filthy, moldy room.
I think the swelling in her brain was considered NOT severe by all forensic specialists who read the report, and also by Mayer. There was MILD swelling and narrowing of the sulci and gyri, and this would not be the case if the swelling was severe- there was not enough time between the head blow and her death for the swelling to become more pronounced.
The wrist restraints were probably put on her after rigor had set in and her arms were fixed that far apart. The average person would never be able to break rigor, and if they did, evidence of the torn muscle fibers would be seen at autopsy and the coroner would know the body had been manipulated after death. Also, there were no marks on her wrists- those "restraints" had never been tied tight enough to press against her skin. If they had, the marks would be red like the ligature furrow on her neck if it happened while she was alive, or white if she was dead when they were put on (because of livor mortis, which in its blanching stage will push blood out from under any area under pressure. The white marks will remain even when the object causing the pressure is removed. If you look at JBR's bare back in the autopsy photos, you will see the white "stripes" left on her by the underwear elastic and wrinkles from the shirt.
But the neck cord and strangulation did happen when she was alive, or there'd be no petechiae.
JMO8778
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not just that,she wouldn't leave gifts...opened or otherwise...in that filthy WC.it's more of something a man would do...but not most women.(they were stated to be partially wrapped;but IMO,they were partially UNwrapped).
but the other thought that comes to mind....was JR redirecting evidence Patsy's way??? (we know he did that once by handing LE Patsy's notepad that was used to write the RN).did he wrap JB up like a parent would,so to appear Patsy did that? also...did HE use her items...paintbrush,cord from painting,tape,etc..to make it look like SHE did it?? and if Patsy did it...would she use her own items?? I know Patsy's fiber evidence is there,but could it have gotten there from her handling the items prior to JB's death that night..ie-if she was in the process of preparing a painting for travel (perhaps even bf they left for the White's)?I realize that doesn't explain the tape though.Unless JR just said 'get me these items',and she did so,getting her fibers on them in the process.
I also think JR directed things Patsy's way when he took a shower and she didn't (perhaps he kept her busy re-writing the note),and he allowed her to remain wearing the same outfit the White's had seen her in the night before(as well as JB's shirt being the same one).