Well, now I'm really confused.
Patsy said she gave JonBenet the package of Bloomies, size 12-14, and JonBenet put a pair on herself that day, which would be the pair found on the body the next. Since no other size 12-14 Bloomies were found in the drawer by LE, where would the other 6 pair have gone if LE didn't collect them, but Patsy says she bought them and they were there, and the receipt proves it?
Or am I misremembering and LE did find the other six pair of size 12-14 Bloomies in the drawer? Is that what I'm missing?
I just remember them saying all the underwear in the drawer they took in...15 pairs or some such...were the actual size JonBenet should have been wearing, size 4-6. Remember that when asked, Patsy first told the Boulder investigators in Atlanta that JonBenet would have worn size 8-10. Boulder LE nailed her on that lie immediately. It's one reason I believe Patsy was awaiting the questions about the large Bloomies: she lied to minimize the problem with the much too large Bloomies found on the child, plain and simple, as there were no size 8-10 anywhere in the drawer or home, which LE told Patsy after she was caught in that lie. If that was the size JonBenet wore, why didn't she own ANY? Boulder LE jumped all over that, and then Wood jumped in to cue Patsy. Patsy got nervous and started stammering and trying to keep her lies going...but it is obvious she was making it up as she went.
Should we bring that part of the Atlanta interview here to review? (Please say no.) Okay, we have to, or I will never figure this out.
Because a poster at another forum is saying that Dr. Lee said LE tested the other Bloomies 12-14 from that package for "unknown" DNA and found some. I remember reading that SOME were tested, but not from the actual package. If you know about this, UKGuy, don't be coy, spit it out! I'm not young anymore, you know! I might croak any minute!
Okay, I'm spent tonight, so I'll be back tomorrow to see if I can figure out where I lost those 6 pairs of Bloomies....
KoldKase,
Patsy said she gave JonBenet the package of Bloomies, size 12-14, and JonBenet put a pair on herself that day, which would be the pair found on the body the next. Since no other size 12-14 Bloomies were found in the drawer by LE, where would the other 6 pair have gone if LE didn't collect them, but Patsy says she bought them and they were there, and the receipt proves it?
Should we bring that part of the Atlanta interview here to review? (Please say no.) Okay, we have to, or I will never figure this out.
I know, it has to be done, so we can establish the panty count. See below.
If you read through Patsy's question and answer session you will find that she suggested that
two packs of size-12's were purchased at Bloomingdales. One for Jenny and one for JonBenet. Later during the interview she professes memory loss repeatedly for being unable to restate whether she purchase one or two packs of Bloomingdales size-12's!
Eventually the interviewer tells Patsy that no size-12's were discovered in JonBenet's panty drawer. Slightly further on in the interview Patsy is then asked
if there had been two packs of Bloomingdales size-12's purchased then there should be another pack of size-12's lying about the house? Patsy agrees e.g. see the very last quote on this page.
This question can only be reasonably put to Patsy if the interviewer already has an answer. That is a complete house search has been done and
no size-12's, opened or unopened, have been found. Also just after Patsy is told no size-12's were found in the panty drawer, she is asked to confirm that the size-12's found on JonBenet did actually belong to JonBenet and were not brought into the house by an alleged intruder.
Because a poster at another forum is saying that Dr. Lee said LE tested the other Bloomies 12-14 from that package for "unknown" DNA and found some. I remember reading that SOME were tested, but not from the actual package. If you know about this, UKGuy, don't be coy, spit it out! I'm not young anymore, you know! I might croak any minute!
At the Atlanta interview some alleged facts were established:
1. Patsy purchased two packs of Bloomingdales size-12 underwear in November 1996.
2. The size-12's discovered on JonBenet were indeed owned by JonBenet.
3. That no intruder brought the size-12's into the house.
4. That
no size-12's were discovered in the house, opened or unopened.
#3 is a question that need not be put to Patsy if the police are already in posession of a pack of
opened size-12's, since they should contain the six remaining pairs. e.g. they can simply show Patsy a photograph of the said opened packet, and ask her to confirm that she purchased them.
#4 Tells you no
unopened pack of size-12's was discovered in the house, otherwise again the same procedure outlined in
#3 can be followed, presenting Patsy with an
unopened pack, which also might make the question about the existence of an
unopened pack of size-12's, see last quote on this page, redundant.
I remember reading that SOME were tested, but not from the actual package.
Holly Smith then head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, was called into the investigation on its 3rd day, so this tells you what kind of a case the investigators assumed they were dealing with. In JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawers, Holly Smith is on record stating that she discovered that
most of the panties had been soiled with fecal material. So its safe to assume that this underwear would have been dna tested, these results have not been made public, nor has the size, or the
day of the week of the said soiled underwear ever been made public.
The importance of this information cannot be understated, since do any of the soiled pants contain foreign dna, could it match the touch dna on the longjohns or size-12's discovered on JonBenet? Why was JonBenet hoarding soiled underwear, did LHP or Patsy know about this?
So in essence it appears that
no Bloomingdales size-12's purchased by Patsy were tested, other than the pair discovered on JonBenet, because none were found in the house.
A phone call to Holly Smith asking if any of the underwear found in the bedroom dresser was size-12 should indirectly confirm this?
If what Dr. Lee is saying was correct then the current debate about the touch dna on JonBenet's size-12's and longjohns might be redundant. It would also mean that the police found a pack of size-12's in their house search, if so, then what pack did the Ramsey's return?
The conclusive outcome is that we know Patsy is lying from a position of ignorance otherwise she would never have stated she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer, only to be told none were found there!
Excerpts from Patsy's Atlanta interview
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm
Patsy states she purchased size-12's for JonBenet in November 1996.
18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start
19 with what - I will make it very simple for
20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you
21 in possession of or what do you know about
22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing
23 at the time she was found murdered?
24 A. I have heard that she had on a
25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
0078
1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.
Patsy states JonBenet
chose the size-12's
...
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
Patsy suggests she purchased two sets of Bloomingdales, including a set for her niece Jenny.
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
0081
1 niece.
2 Q. Which niece was that?
3 A. Jenny Davis.
4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
5 you remember that they come in kind of a
6 plastic see-through plastic container.
7 A. Right.
Patsy has memory loss on the number of packs purchased.
0 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
12 niece, and one for JonBenet?
13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or
14 two.
15 Q. Do you remember what size they
16 were?
17 A. Not exactly.
Patsy states she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer.
21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
1 A. I am sure that I put the package
2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
3 them and put them on.
4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
7 you bought them in November?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
1 A. Not specifically.
Patsy re-states placing the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.
0086
1 I mean, if you have ever seen
2 these little panties, there is not too much
3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
5 they were special because we got them up
6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
8 fine with me.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?
0087
1 A. Right.
Again Patsy re-states placing the size-12's into JonBenet's panty drawer.
8 I think I bought them with the intention of
9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.
Patsy's memory loss becomes specific at this point
5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
7 one set of Bloomi's?
8 A. I can't remember.
9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --
Patsy is told no size-12's were found in the panty drawer.
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to
0094
1 eight. There were probably some in there
2 that were too small.
3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
4 A. Not typically, no.
...
5 MR. KANE: Okay.
6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.
Patsy is asked two packets or one?
2 Q. Okay. I am slightly confused,
13 and I would like this clarified. When I
14 first started to ask you about the purchase
15 of the panties in November, I got the
16 impression that you were somewhat unclear as
17 to whether you bought two sets or one.
18 In follow-up questions, I got the
19 impression that you felt confident that you
20 only bought one. Do you know?
21 A. I really can't remember.
22 Q. Do you recall that you did -- you
23 never mailed this pair out to --
24 A. Jenny, yes.
25 Q. Okay. So if there was an
0112
1 unopened package, it would have been left in
2 the house?
3 A. Yes.
