Ramsey Clothing Journey

[JMO8778]

Were it not for that darned "scheduled" trip to Michigan they could have gotten her body out of the house...

If PR did it, and I think she did, don't you know she lived every day of the rest of her life replaying the 'what-ifs'...

The flashlight looks better and better as the murder weapon to me.
The more times I read about the R's saying, 'That "dirty" flashlight found in our home was NOT ours', the more I believe it was theirs. (Afterall, they owned one just like it which could not be located...) Distancing themselves from the probable murder weapon sure makes it look more definite as Being The Murder Weapon and saying it wasn't theirs is just like not recognizing the bowl of pineapple as theirs when Burke claimed it was... It helps "INVENT" an intruder theory...

yes,and it's not just that;the fact the Thomas doesn't name a murder weapon,yet still includes the flashlight info in his book..IMO,means the flashlight is the likely weapon.

 

[JMO8778]

angelwngs,
Yes denial would be the legal advice given to them, this would make any prosecution more protracted.

Why would any intruder bother cleaning a flashlight, inside and out, then leave it in the house, when it could simply be pocketed, just like the size-6's, size-12's?

.

or just put it back in the drawer,where it was said they kept it.
even if they were afraid someone saw it being used in the kitchen..as the neighbor did..big deal,an intruder would carry his own flashlight,right? why wipe it off and leave it out,unless it IS the murder weapon;I believe they were afraid,(and it seems it was),it could be matched to the head injury.

 

[UKGuy]

or just put it back in the drawer,where it was said they kept it.
even if they were afraid someone saw it being used in the kitchen..as the neighbor did..big deal,an intruder would carry his own flashlight,right? why wipe it off and leave it out,unless it IS the murder weapon;I believe they were afraid,(and it seems it was),it could be matched to the head injury.

JMO8778,
I reckon the removal of the flashlight and its cleaning was possibly a last minute thing?

We do not know when this occurred, how about John pocketing it on his lone absence that morning, then recognizing it may be harmful cleaning it inside and out.

Whenever it occurred we can link it to the crime-scene precisely because it was forensically cleaned and also more relevently its shape matches the depression in JonBenet's skull.

Now if you are staging a crime-scene, why not leave the cleaned murder weapon at the scene of the crime, it would help to embroider the crime-scene, lend it some consistency?

Why was this not done? Why was an apparently lifeless body not left half-naked, with the flashlight by its side?

Thats is the question that needs answered, why was it altered to that of a clothed victim who has been garroted?

That is for those that suggest the garrote offers a visual clue to death, then so does the flashlight if left at the crime-scene. A safe assumption might be that the flashlight might hold traces of JonBenet's hair and random dna?

So what I'm suggesting is that the flashlight may not have been cleaned after the wine-cellar staging, but prior to it. e.g. it was part of the staging, some have inferred for this very reason that this was its sole purpose e.g. obsfucation?

So although it does not make 100% sense the idea that there was more than one staging, particularly one that included the flashlight, which was then discarded, or placed back into the kitchen, is more consistent than say a PDI from Toilet Rage because apparently unrelated forensic evidence can be factored into a multiple staging theory?


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
I reckon the removal of the flashlight and its cleaning was possibly a last minute thing?

We do not know when this occurred, how about John pocketing it on his lone absence that morning, then recognizing it may be harmful cleaning it inside and out.

Whenever it occurred we can link it to the crime-scene precisely because it was forensically cleaned and also more relevently its shape matches the depression in JonBenet's skull.

I agree!

Now if you are staging a crime-scene, why not leave the cleaned murder weapon at the scene of the crime, it would help to embroider the crime-scene, lend it some consistency?

Why was this not done? Why was an apparently lifeless body not left half-naked, with the flashlight by its side?

IMO,since the FL belonged to the R's,they felt the need to distance themselves from it.to leave it there,and risk someone saying it appears to be theirs,was just too risky,IMO...and to try to remove it,as large as it was..they risked having it found on them.

Thats is the question that needs answered, why was it altered to that of a clothed victim who has been garroted?

That is for those that suggest the garrote offers a visual clue to death, then so does the flashlight if left at the crime-scene. A safe assumption might be that the flashlight might hold traces of JonBenet's hair and random dna?

So what I'm suggesting is that the flashlight may not have been cleaned after the wine-cellar staging, but prior to it. e.g. it was part of the staging, some have inferred for this very reason that this was its sole purpose e.g. obsfucation?

So although it does not make 100% sense the idea that there was more than one staging, particularly one that included the flashlight, which was then discarded, or placed back into the kitchen, is more consistent than say a PDI from Toilet Rage because apparently unrelated forensic evidence can be factored into a multiple staging theory?


.

good thoughts.

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave,

CARED? The implication is that the abductee is already dead, since you don't bury live children.

True, but I meant the other, as well.

This after whacking JonBenet on the head and garroting her. Yet CASKU and others want to talk about parental concern and care?
.

I guess so. I find it helpful to distinguish between what may well have been real and what was phonied up.

 

[BBB167893]

What favorite possession are you talking about SD? The nightgown?

Right-o.

Because not only did Patsy state that the nightgown was not JB's favorite, but also...when told about it, John says..that it wasn't "supposed to be there". IMO..it came out of the dryer, via static cling...with the blanket that she was wrapped in.

Well, isn't THAT just interesting, since Nedra and Pam confirmed it was in fact her favorite.

Who to believe...

 

[UKGuy]

True, but I meant the other, as well.



I guess so. I find it helpful to distinguish between what may well have been real and what was phonied up.

SuperDave,

I guess so. I find it helpful to distinguish between what may well have been real and what was phonied up.

So what criteria do you employ to distinguish aspects of parental concern and care from that of staging?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree!

IMO,since the FL belonged to the R's,they felt the need to distance themselves from it.to leave it there,and risk someone saying it appears to be theirs,was just too risky,IMO...and to try to remove it,as large as it was..they risked having it found on them.



good thoughts.

JMO8778,
Although not conclusive another conclusion is a type of inverse inference. A case which interests me because it shares some features with JonBenet's case is that of Dr. Sam Sheppard aka The Fugitive. e.g. an intruder is mooted to have entered a domestic household whilst the family was present and a family member was murdered.

In this case, Marilyn Sheppard, four months pregnant was bludgeoned to death. The prosecution hold that staging took place, the defense that an intruder killed Marilyn Sheppard, does all that sound familiar?

Anyway the point here is the evidence, that is a coterminous point, in both cases e.g. head injury. Marilyn Sheppard, suffered skull fractures as did JonBenet. The interesting feature is the particular distinctions. Cyril Wecht is on record as offering an opinion as to how a flashlight may have caused the wounds to Marilyn Sheppard's head. Now these wounds are not any old wounds or any old fracture, they are elliptical in shape and Cyril Wecht avers that they were caused by a cylindrycal flashlight.

A link of sorts;
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result


Now the wounds or fractures on JonBenet's head are rectangular as suggested by Werner Spitz who thinks that the large end of the flashlight was used rather than the handle?

IMO,since the FL belonged to the R's,they felt the need to distance themselves from it.to leave it there,and risk someone saying it appears to be theirs,was just too risky,IMO...and to try to remove it,as large as it was..they risked having it found on them.

Well only if it was discovered at the crime-scene, found elsewhere suggests a domestic origin, so placing it elsewhere simply might mean , forensice displacent, rather than personal distance?

.

 

[Ames]

Right-o.



Well, isn't THAT just interesting, since Nedra and Pam confirmed it was in fact her favorite.

Who to believe...

LOL..well, yes...I do believe Nedra. But this is a quote from Smit... on Larry King Live.

SMIT: I believe that he was going to take her out of house. There is some evidence to suggest that he did perhaps try to put her in a suitcase. Perhaps he couldn't get the suitcase in the window and then get out of the window himself. Perhaps he got into the window and couldn't pull the suitcase out after him.

Although I don't believe an intruder tried to put her in the suitcase, I have often wondered if John and/or Patsy placed her in there...for a brief second. Changing their minds for whatever reason...she either didn't fit...or, they decided that they didn't want her outside the house afterall. I used to wonder if they AT FIRST placed her in the suitcase to take her to Michigan...to dispose of, but then changed their minds.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have a hard time with the Rs putting her in a suitcase to take her to Michigan. I just can't imagine them traveling with her body. I mean, anything could have happened on the plane- turbulence could have caused the suitcase to pop open. I am not ruling out that they put her in the suitcase- it could have happened. But I think if they did, it was to carry her in and out of the car, to hide the body. I can envision a theory where they plan to make it look like they are swapping a suitcase of money (really containing JBR) for her and saying "Look, we gave them the money and they gave us back a dead child."
The suitcase could also have been used to hide the semen-stained comforter, children's book (they could not have known about JBR's hair that was also found in there). If the comforter and book were known to have been used by JAR to molest her, I can see the parents hiding the evidence in there. I think they may not have realized that it would have been taken by LE and opened. U think they thought things like that would be photographed (if that) and left alone.

 

[angelwngs]

I have a hard time with the Rs putting her in a suitcase to take her to Michigan. I just can't imagine them traveling with her body. I mean, anything could have happened on the plane- turbulence could have caused the suitcase to pop open. I am not ruling out that they put her in the suitcase- it could have happened. But I think if they did, it was to carry her in and out of the car, to hide the body. I can envision a theory where they plan to make it look like they are swapping a suitcase of money (really containing JBR) for her and saying "Look, we gave them the money and they gave us back a dead child."
The suitcase could also have been used to hide the semen-stained comforter, children's book (they could not have known about JBR's hair that was also found in there). If the comforter and book were known to have been used by JAR to molest her, I can see the parents hiding the evidence in there. I think they may not have realized that it would have been taken by LE and opened. U think they thought things like that would be photographed (if that) and left alone.

If there was a pilot...they could not take her on the plane in a suitcase. He would be a witness to either her not being on board alive or that they carried on a suitcase large enough for her to have fit into... They could have drugged Burke had he been the only witness, but they couldn't have done much about the pilot...

 

[DeeDee249]

If there was a pilot...they could not take her on the plane in a suitcase. He would be a witness to either her not being on board alive or that they carried on a suitcase large enough for her to have fit into... They could have drugged Burke had he been the only witness, but they couldn't have done much about the pilot...

Well- it was a private plane and a pilot who had been flying the family before. They could have said that JBR was not going alone, maybe staying with her grandparents or something. He wasn't a friend- he'd really not know the family's day-to-day details. I don't believe there was ever a plan to bring her on the plane in the suitcase.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't either,but I suspect,in a panic-driven moment,right after it happened..the thought was 'we've GOT to get her out of the house,or they'll know we did it!!'. ..but for whatever reason,they couldn't or didn't go through with it.

 

[Ames]

I don't either,but I suspect,in a panic-driven moment,right after it happened..the thought was 'we've GOT to get her out of the house,or they'll know we did it!!'. ..but for whatever reason,they couldn't or didn't go through with it.

I agree. Even if they didn't plan on taking the suitcase with her body in it to Michigan, I DO believe that they placed her inside of it for a period of time. Maybe that was where she was, when Fleet looked into the WC the first time, and said that he didn't see anything. John went missing for a couple of hours...maybe she was in the suitcase at first...and then he took her out. OR maybe she was in there for just a second, and then they came to their "senses", if you can call it that.

 

[DeeDee249]

I agree. Even if they didn't plan on taking the suitcase with her body in it to Michigan, I DO believe that they placed her inside of it for a period of time. Maybe that was where she was, when Fleet looked into the WC the first time, and said that he didn't see anything. John went missing for a couple of hours...maybe she was in the suitcase at first...and then he took her out. OR maybe she was in there for just a second, and then they came to their "senses", if you can call it that.

What troubles me about this is that she could only be bent into the suitcase right after she died, in the brief period of "primary flaccidity". Shortly after that, the first degrees of rigor begin in the face muscles, then progressing to the joints of the shoulder/elbow/wrists/fingers, etc. If she'd been put in there while she was still flexible, she would have become rigid while inside and remained in that folded-up position when she was removed. With her being in full rigor all stretched out, it is obvious that she was laid on the floor very quickly after death, no matter where she died. She could have been in another room, but the livor pattern also shows no evidence of the body being moved after death, at least not within the time frame we are talking about. Unfortunately, from the looks of the body, she was in that wineceller from VERY quickly after death until she was "found". That makes it hard to explain why FW didn't see her when he looked in there that morning (unbeknownst to JR). I know it was very dark in there and FW didn't know where the light switch was, but he wasn't standing in a pitch black hallway- he turned at least some basement lights on when he went down there, and studies show that there was PROBABLY enough ambient lights shed into the room from the lights on outside the wineceller to have seen the white blanket. The rigor and livor patterns make having moved her around less likely. The only thing I can think of is that possibly when she was first placed in the wineceller, she was completely covered up with the blanket and possibly FW didn't realize what he was looking at in the dark. Then, when he went to "get the mail", JR redid the blanket, allowing her head, arms and legs to be exposed.

 

[Chrishope]

I agree. Even if they didn't plan on taking the suitcase with her body in it to Michigan, I DO believe that they placed her inside of it for a period of time. Maybe that was where she was, when Fleet looked into the WC the first time, and said that he didn't see anything. John went missing for a couple of hours...maybe she was in the suitcase at first...and then he took her out. OR maybe she was in there for just a second, and then they came to their "senses", if you can call it that.

Changing the focus slightly here - The fact that they still intended to make the trip (or at least JR did) is really really hinky. If your daughter was "kidnapped" in Boulder, do you just tell the police -"Well, here's the RN. We'll be in Michigan. Call us if you find anything."

After the body is found, JR is still planning on going. "Well, our daughter was found murdered in the basement, no reason that should ruin our vacation plans".

 

[Ames]

Changing the focus slightly here - The fact that they still intended to make the trip (or at least JR did) is really really hinky. If your daughter was "kidnapped" in Boulder, do you just tell the police -"Well, here's the RN. We'll be in Michigan. Call us if you find anything."

After the body is found, JR is still planning on going. "Well, our daughter was found murdered in the basement, no reason that should ruin our vacation plans".

I KNOW!!!! I couldn't believe that either. When he called the pilot, didin't he say something about the trip for the "remaining family members"? Or something like that? And they were all like..."UHHH, John...YOU can't leave". DUHHHHHH

 

[angelwngs]

I agree. Even if they didn't plan on taking the suitcase with her body in it to Michigan, I DO believe that they placed her inside of it for a period of time. Maybe that was where she was, when Fleet looked into the WC the first time, and said that he didn't see anything. John went missing for a couple of hours...maybe she was in the suitcase at first...and then he took her out. OR maybe she was in there for just a second, and then they came to their "senses", if you can call it that.

Possibly, and I agree that would explain why FW didn't see her when he 1st went in hours before.

Also, I agree with all of you who said that it was not to take her on the plane but more likely to get her out of the house for her body to be found in another location.

 

[KoldKase]

About the topic: sorry if this is a bit off topic or redundant, as I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread or all threads here: I put up the avatar on my heading here, which one of you members asked me to do a couple of months ago. Here is the link to the FFJ thread where Jayelles posted this picture she made from her model:

Bloomies underwear model:
3 Dimensional

The over-sized Bloomies is one of the great "bugaboos" in this case (a nod to Lou "bugaboo" Smit, you noticed I'm sure). Answer the question of who put them on JonBenet, and you have answered who at least participated in the redressing that night, IMO.

Here is the picture of a model made from a child the age and size of JonBenet in her correct sized 4-6 Bloomies:

And here is a picture of the actual sized 12-14 Bloomies found on JonBenet:

The details of how Jayelles sized and made the model, collected the Bloomies, etc., are on the thread at the FFJ link.

The tag with the link is also on the bottom of my posts. Anyone who really wants to know the truth in this case will study the model Jayelles made up and ask some important questions, in light of Patsy's interview on the question of the Bloomies in Atlanta in 2000, IMO.

 

[KoldKase]

PS: I see Jayelles still posts here. So Jayelles, I'm asking you at FFJ if you mind me posting/re-posting your pics. I'm POSITIVE you'll let me know....

Ba'heid