Regarding the heart...

[UKGuy]

My daughter is six, and she can draw hearts, the way that they are supposed to look. I just don't see a heart, there. There is no middle to it. Like it is disconnected. I see, in the picture...some areas on her hand that look like they could have been made by the camera angle...but, they are not red.

Ames,
Although its interpreted as a heart, it may also represent the impression of something JonBenet was either grasping onto, prior to her death, or pusshing away?

 

[Solace]

That is something that I have NEVER figured out....how did this "supposed intruder"...get to the Ramsey's house, did he walk, skateboard, ride a bike, take a taxi....how did he supposedly get there. Was the rest of the small foreign faction, driving a get away car? Were there any tire tracks? I know that there were bicycle tracks..but, John said that those were made by Burke's bike. I just couldn't imagine an intruder, riding a bike to someone's home, murdering someone, and then fleeing ....on the bike, especially when he had planned on a kidnapping. Was he going to strap her to the handlebars? I mean, really....how did he get there? Did he park somewhere else and walk? Take a look at the arial view of the Rams neighborhood...over on FFJ. Those houses are thisclose together. I had always thought, before I saw the pictures, that they were scattered out far and wide. Another poster, on FFJ said the same thing. Anyway, I just couldn't imagine where in the world, an intruder...would have hidden his car....without someone noticing, or hearing as he drove away.

You would think that alone would bother the IDIs.

 

[DeeDee249]

Ames,
Although its interpreted as a heart, it may also represent the impression of something JonBenet was either grasping onto, prior to her death, or pusshing away?

In some autopsy photos, (and some sites have clearer photos than others) it is definitely red ink. Whether it is, in fact, a heart is open to debate. To me, it looks like a childish heart. While a child may be able to draw a better heart in paper, maybe it doesn't look so neat when drawn on a hand.

Now, here is something for those of you better versed in this case than I am. I think I remember something being said about JBR and someone else (maybe PR) having a custom of drawing a heart in the palm of her hand to symbolize "my heart is in your hand". Is this i figament of my imagination or could I have read this?

 

[Ames]

In some autopsy photos, (and some sites have clearer photos than others) it is definitely red ink. Whether it is, in fact, a heart is open to debate. To me, it looks like a childish heart. While a child may be able to draw a better heart in paper, maybe it doesn't look so neat when drawn on a hand.

Now, here is something for those of you better versed in this case than I am. I think I remember something being said about JBR and someone else (maybe PR) having a custom of drawing a heart in the palm of her hand to symbolize "my heart is in your hand". Is this i figament of my imagination or could I have read this?

I recall that in Patsy's interview, that she said that SHE drew a heart on JB's hand, before having a cancer treatment, or something. I will see if I can find that. But, Patsy said that JB didn't have a habit of drawing on herself, Patsy even made the comment that JB's friend, Daphne could have done it. And in John's interview, he said that he never recalled JB EVER drawing on herself.

From Patsy's 98 Intervew...

11 THOMAS HANEY: On the 25th,
12 Christmas, when you put JonBenet to bed, did she
13 have any marks on her?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Any scratches, cuts,
16 bruises?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
18 THOMAS HANEY: How about, did she
19 have any marks from markers or anything like
20 that?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice
22 anything that night when she went to bed. And,
23 you know, I know there was a red heart on her
24 hand or her forehead. I don't know when that --
25 I mean, you know, I didn't -- I didn't inspect
0195
1 her when I put her to bed.
2 THOMAS HANEY: But when you put her
3 to bed, let's talk about that. We will go into
4 a little more detail later, because we have some
5 photographs and we want to talk about that. You
6 were -- at least changed part of her clothing
7 when she is asleep?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, right.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Doesn't --
10 (INAUDIBLE). Did you notice anything?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
12 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
13 washed her hands at a particular time?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at dinner, she
15 rarely washed her hands.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Would she, or
17 perhaps she had been eating crab and you have
18 that slimy stuff all over?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think she is
20 going to wash her hands. But I didn't see her.
21 I don't know.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Getting her ready
23 that early afternoon, four or five o'clock, did
24 you give her a bath, did she take a bath?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so.
0196
1 THOMAS HANEY: You don't think you
2 gave her one?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Do you think she
5 took one?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, she didn't take
7 one (INAUDIBLE).
8 THOMAS HANEY: Showers?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
11 washed her hands before getting ready to go?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I'd like to think
13 so, but I just don't know for sure.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: At the Whites, did
15 somebody say, oh, here, get ready for dinner?
16 Did somebody tell her to go wash her hands at
17 the Whites, do you remember anything about that?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: How was she about
20 washing her hands?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Just typical kid,
22 you know, if she can get by with it, she
23 wouldn't do it. You know, but I was pretty much
24 always (INAUDIBLE). (Gesturing.)
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Had you referred to
0197
1 that at all Christmas Day?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
3 don't remember exactly, but I may have.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How do you know there
5 was a heart on her hand?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Because it was on
7 there in the morning, that's why.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: And you remember it
9 from the next morning?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: You saw it the next
12 morning?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: When you say the next
15 morning, did you remember it from the previous
16 evening?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.) (No
18 response.)
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she -- I mean did
20 it get there, was that something she would do
21 or --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she and
23 Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on
24 themselves.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever see a
0198
1 heart on her hand before?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Not specifically a
3 heart.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: What might you have
5 seen before?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Just markings, you
7 know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been
8 coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from
9 markers or something.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever draw
11 anything on the palm of her hands?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there ever an
14 occasion when you would draw a smiley face on
15 the palm of her hand or on her hand somewhere?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: As a matter of fact,
17 I discouraged her doing that because we always
18 did what we called the pageant scrub the night
19 before we have a pageant. We would wash her
20 hair real good, and scrub her fingernails, and,
21 you know, and oftentimes she would have, you
22 know, marker all over herself or something, on
23 her leg or something. Say, honey, now don't do
24 that, wipe it off. We had to use nail polish
25 remover, sort of try to dilute it and get it
0199
1 off. So I kind of discouraged that as much as
2 possible.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: There was something
4 regarding that you would draw a smiley face when
5 she was feeling down to perk her up. What would
6 your reaction be to that?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: That I would do it?
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
10 doing that.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody have a
12 particular liking or habit of drawing hearts?
13 Did JonBenet draw hearts routinely?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
15 Typically children do a lot of different things.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Some little kids have
17 this --
18 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
19 THOMAS HANEY: Line dine job --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: She drew suns and
21 things and birds and things like that.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: What was your
23 reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I just thought
25 Daphne must have done it or something, you know,
0200
1 they were playing the night before. You know --
2 you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa
3 Claus made a point the night that he was at our
4 house at the party and was, you know, reading
5 this dialogue that I had written up, and then he
6 told this story about, you know, how Christmas
7 should be Christmas all the time, all year long,
8 and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's
9 not really Christmas," something like that. He
10 said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to
11 JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing.
12 So I mean, you know, I just turned
13 around. I am trying to figure and figure and
14 put things together, but, you know, that -- I am
15 sure you all have too, but --
16 TRIP DeMUTH: You knew her best.
17 That's why we need to ask about her habits.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: That was a pretty
19 good little heart, you know, I mean -- pretty
20 well drawn.

I couldn't find the part where she admitted finally that she did draw on JB's hand, before she (Patsy) went into for chemo. I will keep looking, I didn't search the whole interview.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Ames,
Although its interpreted as a heart, it may also represent the impression of something JonBenet was either grasping onto, prior to her death, or pusshing away?

That reminds me...I remember reading something a while ago about speculation that there was a cluster of what looked like small blisters on one of JonBenet's palms...I want to say it was the heart one, but it's been a while.

 

[Solace]

I recall that in Patsy's interview, that she said that SHE drew a heart on JB's hand, before having a cancer treatment, or something. I will see if I can find that. But, Patsy said that JB didn't have a habit of drawing on herself, Patsy even made the comment that JB's friend, Daphne could have done it. And in John's interview, he said that he never recalled JB EVER drawing on herself.

John does not recall much. Children draw on themselves ALL the time. JonBenet had access to probably every kind of colored pen going - SHE DREW ON HERSELF, there is no doubt. Not saying she did this, but she probably did. And John once again is full of it.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

John does not recall much. Children draw on themselves ALL the time. JonBenet had access to probably every kind of colored pen going - SHE DREW ON HERSELF, there is no doubt. Not saying she did this, but she probably did. And John once again is full of it.

Exactly - that house was stuffed with art supplies. She probably had access to a rainbow array of colored pencils, glitter glue, permanent markers, staplers, tape, glue sticks, paints, washable markers, crayons, hi-liters, white-out, India ink, spray paint, you name it.

JR said in DOI that JonBenet was past the age of drawing on herself because she was older and took pride in her appearance. I think 6 years old is exactly the age where little girls draw on themselves, partly because they think it looks good. They love it - they made it, it's on them, it's pretty! If she thought it looked good, isn't that kinda taking pride in her appearance?

I have to assume ST thought to ask FW or DW herself about the possibility of DW and JB drawing on their hands that night. I think Patsy drew it or knew JB had (why else would she sit and compliment how well-drawn she thought it was?), and as Ames said, I think I read somewhere that there was some history between Patsy and JB with it.

 

[BOESP]

For what it's worth, I remember reading about Patsy and JonBenet and drawing a heart in JonBenet's hand so JonBenet would always be reminded that she held Patsy's heart in her hand while they were apart. I want to say this was in DOI but I'm not for sure. I don't have a personal copy to check.

Regardless, Patsy's wording in the first interview about it being a well drawn little heart makes me think JonBenet drew it. I speculate Patsy could have "helped" JonBenet draw it at some point during the staging. That's the only reason I can think of that might make Patsy think the heart statement from the first day was incriminating. Why change the story unless Patsy thought it might connect her to JonBenet's death?

 

[Solace]

Exactly - that house was stuffed with art supplies. She probably had access to a rainbow array of colored pencils, glitter glue, permanent markers, staplers, tape, glue sticks, paints, washable markers, crayons, hi-liters, white-out, India ink, spray paint, you name it.

JR said in DOI that JonBenet was past the age of drawing on herself because she was older and took pride in her appearance. I think 6 years old is exactly the age where little girls draw on themselves, partly because they think it looks good. They love it - they made it, it's on them, it's pretty! If she thought it looked good, isn't that kinda taking pride in her appearance?

I have to assume ST thought to ask FW or DW herself about the possibility of DW and JB drawing on their hands that night. I think Patsy drew it or knew JB had (why else would she sit and compliment how well-drawn she thought it was?), and as Ames said, I think I read somewhere that there was some history between Patsy and JB with it.

John thinks everyone is a moron. She was six!

 

[Ames]

John does not recall much. Children draw on themselves ALL the time. JonBenet had access to probably every kind of colored pen going - SHE DREW ON HERSELF, there is no doubt. Not saying she did this, but she probably did. And John once again is full of it.

I agree with you...my six year old daughter, (the one that looks like JB)...has a heart drawn on her hand as I type this. She did it AFTER her bath last night....geesh!

 

[Ames]

For what it's worth, I remember reading about Patsy and JonBenet and drawing a heart in JonBenet's hand so JonBenet would always be reminded that she held Patsy's heart in her hand. I want to say this was in DOI but I'm not for sure. I don't have a personal copy to check.

Regardless, Patsy's wording in the first interview about it being a well drawn little heart makes me think JonBenet drew it. I speculate Patsy could have "helped" JonBenet draw it at some point during the staging. That's the only reason I can think of that might make Patsy think the heart statement from the first day was incriminating. Why change the story unless Patsy thought it might connect her to JonBenet's death?

I think that its because she was adament about her seeing the heart THAT MORNING...(of the 26th). I think that JB drew it....but, like I said before...I think that it is supposed to be a smiley face, but regardless, IMO..JB drew it. Patsy realized that she had slipped up, when she said that she had seen it THAT MORNING, and didn't see anything on her hand the night before, as she tucked JB in. JB was covered when Patsy came into the room. And even even IF Patsy had of seen JB hand sticking out, she is not going to pay her hand and the "well drawn little heart" any attention...she is going to be too focused on the fact that her child lays dead on the floor. I think that she was trying to backtrack, to cover her butt. John said...about the heart...that the intruder could have done it, because he was trying to taunt them, and leave little clues. I am quite positive that they discussed this afterward, John telling Patsy that he blamed the intruder for it, and Patsy saying that she told the interviewer that she saw the heart that morning, that it was well drawn, and that Daphne might have done it. This is why I think that she changed her story. She wanted to distance herself from it...

 

[JMO8778]

I think that its because she was adament about her seeing the heart THAT MORNING...(of the 26th). I think that JB drew it....but, like I said before...I think that it is supposed to be a smiley face, but regardless, IMO..JB drew it. Patsy realized that she had slipped up, when she said that she had seen it THAT MORNING, and didn't see anything on her hand the night before, as she tucked JB in. JB was covered when Patsy came into the room. And even even IF Patsy had of seen JB hand sticking out, she is not going to pay her hand and the "well drawn little heart" any attention...she is going to be too focused on the fact that her child lays dead on the floor. I think that she was trying to backtrack, to cover her butt. John said...about the heart...that the intruder could have done it, because he was trying to taunt them, and leave little clues. I am quite positive that they discussed this afterward, John telling Patsy that he blamed the intruder for it, and Patsy saying that she told the interviewer that she saw the heart that morning, that it was well drawn, and that Daphne might have done it. This is why I think that she changed her story. She wanted to distance herself from it...

John does the same thing w. the pineapple...the lawyers got onto them if they'd say something that might be incriminating,so they changed their stories the very next day (sort of like Patsy wearing that same blue suit 2 days in a row,the second day on CNN),after confronted w. the fact LE found out she'd had on the same clothes from the night before.I think her lawyers told her to do that,Thomas himself said he could just hear a defense attorney asking "..Detective Thomas, what was Mrs Ramsey wearing...? ".
Anyway,from ST's 'JonBenet',hardback,p. 322:

Returning to more serious subjects,Ramsey stumbled when Lou Smit questioned him about the pineapple.He insisted that he didn't remember JonBenet eating it at the White's Christmas party,and knew she didn't eat it at home before going to sleep.In retrospect,he thought it 'strange' that Priscilla White fixed her a plate of cracked crab.He would guarantee that JonBenet did not eat the pineapple at home,so it had to be before they went to the White's or while they were there."I don't buy that an intruder fed her pineapple",he declared,adding that he recognized neither the bowl containing the fruit nor the spoon that were on the table.
The very next day he retracted that firm statement,saying that his lawyer chastised him for making it.Neither he nor Patsy fed her pineapple,he said,but then he asked "What if she knew the intruder?" After thinking about it,he said "It hit me like a ton of bricks". JonBenet adored Santa Bill McReynolds,and if he had come into her room,she would have gotten out of bed and went downstairs with him without a problem.(me-nevermind he'd said she'd been 'exhausted' after a long day,and Patsy had said she was 'zonked'). "She may have had a secretly prearranged meeting",he said."Maybe he fed her pineapple".The detectives stopped the tape and watched that section repeatedly.Only the day before,Ramsey had said such a thing was impossible.Now he laid it on Santa Bill.

 

[Solace]

John does the same thing w. the pineapple...the lawyers got onto them if they'd say something that might be incriminating,so they changed their stories the very next day (sort of like Patsy wearing that same blue suit 2 days in a row,the second day on CNN),after confronted w. the fact LE found out she'd had on the same clothes from the night before.I think her lawyers told her to do that,Thomas himself said he could just hear a defense attorney asking "..Detective Thomas, what was Mrs Ramsey wearing...? ".
Anyway,from ST's 'JonBenet',hardback,p. 322:

Returning to more serious subjects,Ramsey stumbled when Lou Smit questioned him about the pineapple.He insisted that he didn't remember JonBenet eating it at the White's Christmas party,and knew she didn't eat it at home before going to sleep.In retrospect,he thought it 'strange' that Priscilla White fixed her a plate of cracked crab.He would guarantee that JonBenet did not eat the pineapple at home,so it had to be before they went to the White's or while they were there."I don't buy that an intruder fed her pineapple",he declared,adding that he recognized neither the bowl containing the fruit nor the spoon that were on the table.
The very next day he retracted that firm statement,saying that his lawyer chastised him for making it.Neither he nor Patsy fed her pineapple,he said,but then he asked "What if she knew the intruder?" After thinking about it,he said "It hit me like a ton of bricks". JonBenet adored Santa Bill McReynolds,and if he had come into her room,she would have gotten out of bed and went downstairs with him without a problem.(me-nevermind he'd said she'd been 'exhausted' after a long day,and Patsy had said she was 'zonked'). "She may have had a secretly prearranged meeting",he said."Maybe he fed her pineapple".The detectives stopped the tape and watched that section repeatedly.Only the day before,Ramsey had said such a thing was impossible.Now he laid it on Santa Bill.

It is one thing to try and save your wife, if an accident happened. It is another to knowingly implicate people who are innocent. Maybe he did molest JonBenet. He is just sleazy enough to lie about this, why not that.

He should go slowly and painfully.

 

[UKGuy]

John does the same thing w. the pineapple...the lawyers got onto them if they'd say something that might be incriminating,so they changed their stories the very next day (sort of like Patsy wearing that same blue suit 2 days in a row,the second day on CNN),after confronted w. the fact LE found out she'd had on the same clothes from the night before.I think her lawyers told her to do that,Thomas himself said he could just hear a defense attorney asking "..Detective Thomas, what was Mrs Ramsey wearing...? ".
Anyway,from ST's 'JonBenet',hardback,p. 322:

Returning to more serious subjects,Ramsey stumbled when Lou Smit questioned him about the pineapple.He insisted that he didn't remember JonBenet eating it at the White's Christmas party,and knew she didn't eat it at home before going to sleep.In retrospect,he thought it 'strange' that Priscilla White fixed her a plate of cracked crab.He would guarantee that JonBenet did not eat the pineapple at home,so it had to be before they went to the White's or while they were there."I don't buy that an intruder fed her pineapple",he declared,adding that he recognized neither the bowl containing the fruit nor the spoon that were on the table.
The very next day he retracted that firm statement,saying that his lawyer chastised him for making it.Neither he nor Patsy fed her pineapple,he said,but then he asked "What if she knew the intruder?" After thinking about it,he said "It hit me like a ton of bricks". JonBenet adored Santa Bill McReynolds,and if he had come into her room,she would have gotten out of bed and went downstairs with him without a problem.(me-nevermind he'd said she'd been 'exhausted' after a long day,and Patsy had said she was 'zonked'). "She may have had a secretly prearranged meeting",he said."Maybe he fed her pineapple".The detectives stopped the tape and watched that section repeatedly.Only the day before,Ramsey had said such a thing was impossible.Now he laid it on Santa Bill.

JMO8778,
His lawyer chastised him for making the statement precisely because it placed him in the frame. So they needed a fall guy to replace him, enter poor Santa Bill McReynolds!

For some unknown reason John Ramsey was always playing double bluff with the investigators, as if it was a verbal extension of the wine-cellar staging, patently his desire to state the obvious let him down on more than one occassion?

 

[Toltec]

I concede it was a childish drawing on Jonbenet's hand, probably drawn by her or Burke. An adult would not use the entire palm to draw a heart.

Police questioned Patsy about the lamp on the nightstand being on when police arrived. Earlier Patsy told LE that she did not turn on any lights in JB's room, that she remembers that maybe the light in her bathroom was on. So who turned the lamp on?

I believe I heard somewhere that there was an earring on the bear?

 

[DeeDee249]

I read about the earring on the bear, too. If you look closely at some crime scene photos, there is a gold earring on a kind of pouch or belt that the Santa Bear is wearing- it is about waist level. There was also a statement that a gold earring possibly matching the one on the bear was found in the street in front of the R home.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
His lawyer chastised him for making the statement precisely because it placed him in the frame. So they needed a fall guy to replace him, enter poor Santa Bill McReynolds!

For some unknown reason John Ramsey was always playing double bluff with the investigators, as if it was a verbal extension of the wine-cellar staging, patently his desire to state the obvious let him down on more than one occassion?

I believe so,UK.He states he didn't recoginize the bowl or spoon,yet denies an intruder would have fed her pineapple.(meaning,Patsy could have?)Yet,that could implicate him as well.

 

[DeeDee249]

I believe so,UK.He states he didn't recoginize the bowl or spoon,yet denies an intruder would have fed her pineapple.(meaning,Patsy could have?)Yet,that could implicate him as well.

And of course, as we know, that very bowl was seen in a photo of the table at the R Christmas party on Dec. 23. There were also other pieces of that same Lenox China pattern in the R home. BR also identified the bowl and the spoon as belonging to the house.
NO intruder brought a bowl and spoon in with him, along with the Kleenex box, huge flashlight, batteries, pineapple in a Tuppewear bowl, size 12 Bloomingdale's panties, roll of duct tape, cord, (did I forger anything) WHILE shimmying through that basement window, and more difficult STILL, climbing up the wall and getting OUT without breaking the spider web. In the dark.

 

[UKGuy]

And of course, as we know, that very bowl was seen in a photo of the table at the R Christmas party on Dec. 23. There were also other pieces of that same Lenox China pattern in the R home. BR also identified the bowl and the spoon as belonging to the house.
NO intruder brought a bowl and spoon in with him, along with the Kleenex box, huge flashlight, batteries, pineapple in a Tuppewear bowl, size 12 Bloomingdale's panties, roll of duct tape, cord, (did I forger anything) WHILE shimmying through that basement window, and more difficult STILL, climbing up the wall and getting OUT without breaking the spider web. In the dark.

DeeDee249,

The Ramsey's legal advice must have been to deny everything, distance yourself from any linkage to crime-scene items, and we'll argue about it later in courrt?

 

[JMO8778]

And of course, as we know, that very bowl was seen in a photo of the table at the R Christmas party on Dec. 23. There were also other pieces of that same Lenox China pattern in the R home. BR also identified the bowl and the spoon as belonging to the house.
NO intruder brought a bowl and spoon in with him, along with the Kleenex box, huge flashlight, batteries, pineapple in a Tuppewear bowl, size 12 Bloomingdale's panties, roll of duct tape, cord, (did I forger anything) WHILE shimmying through that basement window, and more difficult STILL, climbing up the wall and getting OUT without breaking the spider web. In the dark.

add to that Hold's theory on the other thread that THREE intruders came in,took JB from her bed (btw,has anyone noticed that he *never writes JB's name, not even her initials? ..JAT),but yet couldn't control her so they took her to the basement to regroup.
From the looks of that house,(the layout of it is online and in PMPT),they'd have to regroup in order to even FIND the basement! Even JR's own kids admit to the difficult layout of it.