Sound good to me...
Regarding the heart...
- Thread starter JMO8778
- Start date
Sound good to me...
And that is why they kept postponing and hedging, so that after four months, they could say, I just don't recall, I just don't know, ask John, he might be able to answer that better than I can.
And John you say the same thing about Patsy.
The whole key to the R's legal defense was to prevent them from being questioned by LE until is was so long past the crime that they COULD say they didn't recall, or they don't remember this or that, and make it seem believable. So people (especially those simpletons on the Grand Jury) would think, well, after all it HAS been a few YEARS, no wonder they don't remember.
I can assure you that if that happened to MY child, I would remember every waking nanosecond. What we wore, what we did, what we ate, EVERYTHING. And so would you.
I can assure you that if that happened to MY child, I would remember every waking nanosecond. What we wore, what we did, what we ate, EVERYTHING. And so would you.
From Patsy's 98 Intervew...
11 THOMAS HANEY: On the 25th,
12 Christmas, when you put JonBenet to bed, did she
13 have any marks on her?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Any scratches, cuts,
16 bruises?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
18 THOMAS HANEY: How about, did she
19 have any marks from markers or anything like
20 that?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice
22 anything that night when she went to bed. And,
23 you know, I know there was a red heart on her
24 hand or her forehead. I don't know when that --
25 I mean, you know, I didn't -- I didn't inspect
0195
1 her when I put her to bed.
2 THOMAS HANEY: But when you put her
3 to bed, let's talk about that. We will go into
4 a little more detail later, because we have some
5 photographs and we want to talk about that. You
6 were -- at least changed part of her clothing
7 when she is asleep?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, right.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Doesn't --
10 (INAUDIBLE). Did you notice anything?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
12 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
13 washed her hands at a particular time?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at dinner, she
15 rarely washed her hands.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Would she, or
17 perhaps she had been eating crab and you have
18 that slimy stuff all over?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think she is
20 going to wash her hands. But I didn't see her.
21 I don't know.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Getting her ready
23 that early afternoon, four or five o'clock, did
24 you give her a bath, did she take a bath?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so.
0196
1 THOMAS HANEY: You don't think you
2 gave her one?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Do you think she
5 took one?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, she didn't take
7 one (INAUDIBLE).
8 THOMAS HANEY: Showers?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
11 washed her hands before getting ready to go?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I'd like to think
13 so, but I just don't know for sure.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: At the Whites, did
15 somebody say, oh, here, get ready for dinner?
16 Did somebody tell her to go wash her hands at
17 the Whites, do you remember anything about that?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: How was she about
20 washing her hands?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Just typical kid,
22 you know, if she can get by with it, she
23 wouldn't do it. You know, but I was pretty much
24 always (INAUDIBLE). (Gesturing.)
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Had you referred to
0197
1 that at all Christmas Day?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
3 don't remember exactly, but I may have.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How do you know there
5 was a heart on her hand?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Because it was on
7 there in the morning, that's why.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: And you remember it
9 from the next morning?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: You saw it the next
12 morning?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: When you say the next
15 morning, did you remember it from the previous
16 evening?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.) (No
18 response.)
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she -- I mean did
20 it get there, was that something she would do
21 or --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she and
23 Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on
24 themselves.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever see a
0198
1 heart on her hand before?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Not specifically a
3 heart.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: What might you have
5 seen before?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Just markings, you
7 know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been
8 coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from
9 markers or something.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever draw
11 anything on the palm of her hands?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there ever an
14 occasion when you would draw a smiley face on
15 the palm of her hand or on her hand somewhere?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: As a matter of fact,
17 I discouraged her doing that because we always
18 did what we called the pageant scrub the night
19 before we have a pageant. We would wash her
20 hair real good, and scrub her fingernails, and,
21 you know, and oftentimes she would have, you
22 know, marker all over herself or something, on
23 her leg or something. Say, honey, now don't do
24 that, wipe it off. We had to use nail polish
25 remover, sort of try to dilute it and get it
0199
1 off. So I kind of discouraged that as much as
2 possible.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: There was something
4 regarding that you would draw a smiley face when
5 she was feeling down to perk her up. What would
6 your reaction be to that?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: That I would do it?
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
10 doing that.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody have a
12 particular liking or habit of drawing hearts?
13 Did JonBenet draw hearts routinely?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
15 Typically children do a lot of different things.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Some little kids have
17 this --
18 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
19 THOMAS HANEY: Line dine job --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: She drew suns and
21 things and birds and things like that.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: What was your
23 reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I just thought
25 Daphne must have done it or something, you know,
0200
1 they were playing the night before. You know --
2 you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa
3 Claus made a point the night that he was at our
4 house at the party and was, you know, reading
5 this dialogue that I had written up, and then he
6 told this story about, you know, how Christmas
7 should be Christmas all the time, all year long,
8 and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's
9 not really Christmas," something like that. He
10 said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to
11 JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing.
12 So I mean, you know, I just turned
13 around. I am trying to figure and figure and
14 put things together, but, you know, that -- I am
15 sure you all have too, but --
16 TRIP DeMUTH: You knew her best.
17 That's why we need to ask about her habits.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: That was a pretty
19 good little heart, you know, I mean -- pretty
20 well drawn.
I couldn't find the part where she admitted finally that she did draw on JB's hand, before she (Patsy) went into for chemo. I will keep looking, I didn't search the whole interview.[/quote]
The THIRD "Line 25" is very important because Trip asks Patsy if sh had referred to that on Christmas Day (washing JB's hands) and then he asks her how do you know there was a heart and Patsy says because I remember it from the morning (and it appears that Patsy is referring to CHRISTMAS MORNING). But, later in Line 8, a few lines down, Trip asks "you remember it from the NEXT morning" (that to me means the day after December 25th, and Patsy says yes. And Trip says "when you say the next morning, do you remember it from the previous evening" and Patsy shaking her head gives a "no response". Not a bad interview by Trip, in his asking if she remembered it from the previous evening
This is the interview that lets us know that Patsy saw the heart on the morning of the 26th. So we know that she was with JonBenet at some point in the early morning hours.
Unfortunately, an average lawyer would just argue she meant she saw it the morning of the 25th.
I wish I had this information when I was doing time at CrimeLibrary, because it was argued that it is never clear what morning they are referring to. It is quite clear here that Trip is referring to her remembering it from the NEXT morning after December 25th.
What I do not understand that if this is clear to us and Trip asked the implicating question and got that answer, why is he defending Patsy today.
11 THOMAS HANEY: On the 25th,
12 Christmas, when you put JonBenet to bed, did she
13 have any marks on her?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
15 THOMAS HANEY: Any scratches, cuts,
16 bruises?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I noticed.
18 THOMAS HANEY: How about, did she
19 have any marks from markers or anything like
20 that?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't notice
22 anything that night when she went to bed. And,
23 you know, I know there was a red heart on her
24 hand or her forehead. I don't know when that --
25 I mean, you know, I didn't -- I didn't inspect
0195
1 her when I put her to bed.
2 THOMAS HANEY: But when you put her
3 to bed, let's talk about that. We will go into
4 a little more detail later, because we have some
5 photographs and we want to talk about that. You
6 were -- at least changed part of her clothing
7 when she is asleep?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum, right.
9 THOMAS HANEY: Doesn't --
10 (INAUDIBLE). Did you notice anything?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (No response.)
12 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
13 washed her hands at a particular time?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, at dinner, she
15 rarely washed her hands.
16 THOMAS HANEY: Would she, or
17 perhaps she had been eating crab and you have
18 that slimy stuff all over?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think she is
20 going to wash her hands. But I didn't see her.
21 I don't know.
22 THOMAS HANEY: Getting her ready
23 that early afternoon, four or five o'clock, did
24 you give her a bath, did she take a bath?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't think so.
0196
1 THOMAS HANEY: You don't think you
2 gave her one?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
4 THOMAS HANEY: Do you think she
5 took one?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, she didn't take
7 one (INAUDIBLE).
8 THOMAS HANEY: Showers?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-uh.
10 THOMAS HANEY: Would she have
11 washed her hands before getting ready to go?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I'd like to think
13 so, but I just don't know for sure.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: At the Whites, did
15 somebody say, oh, here, get ready for dinner?
16 Did somebody tell her to go wash her hands at
17 the Whites, do you remember anything about that?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
19 TRIP DeMUTH: How was she about
20 washing her hands?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Just typical kid,
22 you know, if she can get by with it, she
23 wouldn't do it. You know, but I was pretty much
24 always (INAUDIBLE). (Gesturing.)
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Had you referred to
0197
1 that at all Christmas Day?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I
3 don't remember exactly, but I may have.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How do you know there
5 was a heart on her hand?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Because it was on
7 there in the morning, that's why.
8 TRIP DeMUTH: And you remember it
9 from the next morning?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: You saw it the next
12 morning?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
14 TRIP DeMUTH: When you say the next
15 morning, did you remember it from the previous
16 evening?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.) (No
18 response.)
19 TRIP DeMUTH: Did she -- I mean did
20 it get there, was that something she would do
21 or --
22 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she and
23 Daphne, you know, a lot of times drew on
24 themselves.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever see a
0198
1 heart on her hand before?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Not specifically a
3 heart.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: What might you have
5 seen before?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Just markings, you
7 know, just erratic marks maybe, she had been
8 coloring, pen or ink marks, or like fingers from
9 markers or something.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: Did you ever draw
11 anything on the palm of her hands?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was there ever an
14 occasion when you would draw a smiley face on
15 the palm of her hand or on her hand somewhere?
16 PATSY RAMSEY: As a matter of fact,
17 I discouraged her doing that because we always
18 did what we called the pageant scrub the night
19 before we have a pageant. We would wash her
20 hair real good, and scrub her fingernails, and,
21 you know, and oftentimes she would have, you
22 know, marker all over herself or something, on
23 her leg or something. Say, honey, now don't do
24 that, wipe it off. We had to use nail polish
25 remover, sort of try to dilute it and get it
0199
1 off. So I kind of discouraged that as much as
2 possible.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: There was something
4 regarding that you would draw a smiley face when
5 she was feeling down to perk her up. What would
6 your reaction be to that?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: That I would do it?
8 TRIP DeMUTH: Yes.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember
10 doing that.
11 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody have a
12 particular liking or habit of drawing hearts?
13 Did JonBenet draw hearts routinely?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
15 Typically children do a lot of different things.
16 TRIP DeMUTH: Some little kids have
17 this --
18 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS.)
19 THOMAS HANEY: Line dine job --
20 PATSY RAMSEY: She drew suns and
21 things and birds and things like that.
22 TRIP DeMUTH: What was your
23 reaction when you saw that heart on her hand?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I just thought
25 Daphne must have done it or something, you know,
0200
1 they were playing the night before. You know --
2 you know, my mind ran things out. But Santa
3 Claus made a point the night that he was at our
4 house at the party and was, you know, reading
5 this dialogue that I had written up, and then he
6 told this story about, you know, how Christmas
7 should be Christmas all the time, all year long,
8 and he said, "and where is Christmas when it's
9 not really Christmas," something like that. He
10 said particularly JonBenet, and he pointed to
11 JonBenet. And she said in her heart. Pointing.
12 So I mean, you know, I just turned
13 around. I am trying to figure and figure and
14 put things together, but, you know, that -- I am
15 sure you all have too, but --
16 TRIP DeMUTH: You knew her best.
17 That's why we need to ask about her habits.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: That was a pretty
19 good little heart, you know, I mean -- pretty
20 well drawn.
I couldn't find the part where she admitted finally that she did draw on JB's hand, before she (Patsy) went into for chemo. I will keep looking, I didn't search the whole interview.[/quote]
The THIRD "Line 25" is very important because Trip asks Patsy if sh had referred to that on Christmas Day (washing JB's hands) and then he asks her how do you know there was a heart and Patsy says because I remember it from the morning (and it appears that Patsy is referring to CHRISTMAS MORNING). But, later in Line 8, a few lines down, Trip asks "you remember it from the NEXT morning" (that to me means the day after December 25th, and Patsy says yes. And Trip says "when you say the next morning, do you remember it from the previous evening" and Patsy shaking her head gives a "no response". Not a bad interview by Trip, in his asking if she remembered it from the previous evening
This is the interview that lets us know that Patsy saw the heart on the morning of the 26th. So we know that she was with JonBenet at some point in the early morning hours.
Unfortunately, an average lawyer would just argue she meant she saw it the morning of the 25th.
I wish I had this information when I was doing time at CrimeLibrary, because it was argued that it is never clear what morning they are referring to. It is quite clear here that Trip is referring to her remembering it from the NEXT morning after December 25th.
What I do not understand that if this is clear to us and Trip asked the implicating question and got that answer, why is he defending Patsy today.
Thanks, Solace. In re-reading that it sounds like there may have been a heart and a smiley-face. JonBenet's forehead is mentioned and her hand. Or, maybe, the detective wanted to see what Patsy thought the drawing was since he couldn't tell for sure.
But there's no denying Patsy saw a heart somewhere because it was "a pretty good little heart."
But there's no denying Patsy saw a heart somewhere because it was "a pretty good little heart."
Yes, or on the photos from the White's Christmas dinner? If she didn't take a bath, and Patsy said she didn't, there was surely some remaining evidence of it. We've seen the drawing in the hand. I'm on the fence about whether or not it could be a "pretty good little heart." It also looks faded to my eye but then Internet photo files are not always high quality.
Ames
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I am the one that posted that originally ...the portion of Patsy's interview, where Patsy is asked if JB ever drew SMILEY FACES on her hand. It is that portion of the interview...AND also an enlarged picture of the "heart" on JB's hand...that makes me think that it is a Smiley face. It looks absolutely nothing like a heart, imo...in no shape, form or fashion. Unless it was drawn by a two year old. Obviously Patsy couldn't tell what it was either. She was told that it was a "heart"...and she just went along with it. And I believe that she saw it on there THAT MORNING....as she orginally said. Probably while helping John stage the crime scene. I believe that they BOTH helped in some way, to do part of the staging. I do believe that John probaby is the one that strangled her from behind, though...and probably the one that wiped her down and changed her panties.
Squishified
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Who first described it as a heart? Was it the M.E.?
Ames
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Yes, it was. And how he got that it was a "heart"...I haven't a clue. He should just stick to being a medical examiner...and stop trying to analyze any type of drawing that was done by a child. I think that its because he is a man...LOL. Any woman could have looked at that, and said..."that ain't no heart...what are you talking about...that's a smiley face". It looks like this = ) but, only right side up. My six year old daughter draws smiley faces the exact same way. Line for eyes...and no head....just eyes and a mouth.
Link to enlarged picture of SMILEY FACE on JB's hand....
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenethandheart.jpg
Notice that the lines...(eyes) are darker than the mouth....like this..... = )
Squishified
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I see the letter "G" when I look at it.
I guess it really doesn't matter what it is--it's the fact that PR said she saw it THAT morning.
I am almost sure that JB drew it on her hand at the White's party. I wonder if Daphne was ever questioned about the "heart"?
I guess it really doesn't matter what it is--it's the fact that PR said she saw it THAT morning.
I am almost sure that JB drew it on her hand at the White's party. I wonder if Daphne was ever questioned about the "heart"?
Squishified
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I can see the smiley face, too.
It's almost like an inkblot test. Sometimes it does look like a heart to me.
It's almost like an inkblot test. Sometimes it does look like a heart to me.
Ames
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I don't know...good question. Probably not, considering the way that the rest of this case was handled.
Squishified
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That was my first thought, too.
Ames
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It's never looked like a heart to me...but, if you look at it, and imagine that the two lines that I believe are supposed to be eyes....are not darker than the rest of it, and if you look real hard, you can see a part on her hand that is not as dark as the ink that forms the heart or smiley face...it almost looks like a moon. But, you are right about what you said in your previous post...who cares if it is a heart, a smiley face, the letter G, a moon, a star, her initials, or a picture of a dog....the main thing is...Patsy said that she saw it THAT MORNING...and then she changed her story. I think that JonBenét or Daphne drew it....chances are, with the way that it is facing...TOWARD JB...it was drawn by JB. I think that it would have been upside down, if Daphne had of drawn it.
Squishified
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Wanted to add: when I do see a heart, it sure isn't a "well-drawn" one to me.
Ames
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LOL..I think that is why I don't see one. I guess if I squinted REAL hard...and stood across the room with one eye shut...maybe...just maybe I might be able to see a heart. I have to add...IF it WAS a heart....and it doesn't LOOK like a heart...everybody sees something different. Then how in the world could it have been "well drawn". If it was "well drawn"...then there would be NO QUESTION that it was a heart...because it would actually LOOK like a heart, and not the letter G, a smiley face...a moon, or anything else. Just a heart....
Squishified
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Then how did Patsy know it was a heart?