Sentencing & Alternatives

[sorrell skye]

Just wondering from other discussions over the last few months how many people would approve of the death sentence if someone is found to have committed a capital pre meditated murder versus life in prison, versus a reduced sentence if the perpetrator leads us to Kyron.

According to this web site: (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/aggravating-factors-capital-punishment-state), these are the aggravating factors taken into consideration for capital punishment in the state of Oregon:


(1)The defendant is a future danger
(2)The defendant committed the murder pursuant to an agreement that the defendant receive money or another thing of value for committing the murder or the defendant solicited another to commit the murder and paid or agreed to pay the person money or another thing of value for committing the murder
(3) The defendant committed the murder after having been convicted previously in any jurisdiction of any homicide, the elements of which constitute the crime of murder or manslaughter in the first degree
(4)The defendant murdered more than one person in the same criminal episode
(5)The homicide occurred in the course of or as a result of intentional maiming or torture of the victim
(6)The victim of the intentional homicide was under the age of 14 years old
(7)The victim was one of the following and the murder was related to the performance of the victim’s official duties in the justice system: A police officer, a correctional, parole or probation officer or other person charged with the duty of custody, control or supervision of convicted persons, a member of the Oregon State Police, a judicial officer, a juror or witness in a criminal proceeding, an employee or officer of a court of justice, or a member of the State Board of Parole and Post-Prison Supervision
(8)The defendant was confined in a state, county, or municipal penal or correctional facility or was otherwise in custody when the murder occurred
(9)The defendant committed murder by means of an explosive
(10)The murder was committed after the defendant had escaped from a state, county or municipal penal or correctional facility and before the defendant had been returned to the custody of the facility
(11)The murder was committed in an effort to conceal the commission of a crime, or to conceal the identity of the perpetrator of a crime
(12)The defendant personally and intentionally committed the homicide

Sources:
Jeffrey Kirchmeier, "Aggravating and Mitigating Factors: The Paradox of Today's Arbitrary and Mandatory Capital Punishment Scheme," 6 William & Mary Bill of Rights Journal 345 (1998).

Jeffrey Kirchmeier, "Casting a Wider Net: Another Decade of Legislative Expansion of the Death Penalty in the United States," 34 Pepperdine Law Review 1 (2006).

 

[cluciano63]

What if the perp turned out to be some sex offender with a prior history of bad acts against children? Would that change your mind about whether or not a deal should be offered? I think it would for me. But for the families, they might want LWOP if only they could have Kyron back to bury (if he is deceased.) Kind of like John Gardner...(the only decent thing he ever did was lead LE to Amber, and confess to both to avoid DP-and I'm sure he did not do it for the families, but at least he did it.)

 

[pufnstuf]

What if the perp turned out to be some sex offender with a prior history of bad acts against children? Would that change your mind about whether or not a deal should be offered? I think it would for me. But for the families, they might want LWOP if only they could have Kyron back to bury (if he is deceased.) Kind of like John Gardner...(the only decent thing he ever did was lead LE to Amber, and confess to both to avoid DP-and I'm sure he did not do it for the families, but at least he did it.)

For me, nothing less than life without parole, no matter who the perp is, regardless of if the perp points LE to Kyron's remains or not.

If the perp is sentenced to death, then reduce to LWOP, only if the perp reveals the location.

 

[azmama]

I am pro death penalty, for many reasons... probably a topic for another time. :twocents:

In answer to the specific question, if it is pre-meditated first degree murder, I will not lose a wink of sleep, and say most definitely DP. There are too many variables for the perp to get "life in prison" or any such similar sentence.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Respectfully snipped

Even though you and I are on different sides of the DP fence, NancyA, I appreciate the argument you make, and I thank you for this thoughtful post.

One reason I don't like "no possibility of parole" is that it can become impossible to enforce. Because in the case of a young perp, it means trying to impose rules on future generates of parole boards. It's like a politician lobbying for a new tax and saying "this will only apply to the people in the highest brackets." Well, once the tax has become law, there's no telling what other politicians will do with it ten or twenty years from now. Charles Manson comes up for parole every few years. I don't care what his original sentence was ... there is nothing stopping some future parole board from setting him free. All we can do is hope it never happens--but we all know that in some cases, people who were presumed put away for life have been released a few years after sentencing.

At heart, I am with you in hating the death penalty. I just don't see any way around it sometimes.

Charles Mansion is not in jail for life in prison WITHOUT PAROLE though. He received the death penalty but it was overturned to LIFE IMPRISONMENT (which means you are up for parole every X amount of years) when California temporarily got rid of the death penalty. I believe they did not have Life without parole back in the 70s so that's why he is able to come up for parole every X amount of years. If whoever committed this crime received life in prison without parole, they would never get out of jail. The only way that would happen would be if evidence came out that they were innocent or if they were pardoned by the governor or the president which is extremely unlikely if that person values their approval ratings. If you receive LWOP, you are not going in front of a parole board.

Anyway, since everyone is sharing their opinions on this debate, I'll chime in. I don't really "care" whether a 1st degree, premeditated murderer receives DP or LWOP as long as they are never released. I'm not someone is going to have a heart attack because someone got DP instead of LWOP or vice versa. Having said that, I do prefer LWOP. Let's say that two 30-year-olds commit murder. One of them receives LWOP, the other receives DP. The LWOP dies at age 80 so he spends 50 years in prison. The DP one is executed 10 years after the crime so he spends 10 years in prison. Who suffered more? I do not know whether there is a hell or not so I'm not going to reassure myself that the DP killer one is there to make myself feel like he was punished.

In many states, the DP takes decades to take place. It is becoming "symbolic" IMO. Look at Samantha Runnion's case. Avila will never be executed but he got DP so the state can say, "We recognize what happened to Samantha was the worst of the worst." It seems like it's just becoming a way to separate murderers from which ones are "worse."

 

[cluciano63]

In most states with the DP, the number of years, as long as 25 in some cases, before it is ever carried out, makes it far more expensive than 40 years with LWOP until the person dies naturally. The automatic appeals for DP convictions are expensive and seemingly endless. LWOP is always ok with me.

 

[citigirl]

Has anyone noticed how the poll above has been affected by the news of this motion? The total seems to have climbed...but is there any pattern of increase in a particular response?

 

[DreamyEye]

Charles Mansion is not in jail for life in prison WITHOUT PAROLE though. He received the death penalty but it was overturned to LIFE IMPRISONMENT (which means you are up for parole every X amount of years) when California temporarily got rid of the death penalty. I believe they did not have Life without parole back in the 70s so that's why he is able to come up for parole every X amount of years. If whoever committed this crime received life in prison without parole, they would never get out of jail. The only way that would happen would be if evidence came out that they were innocent or if they were pardoned by the governor or the president which is extremely unlikely if that person values their approval ratings. If you receive LWOP, you are not going in front of a parole board.

Anyway, since everyone is sharing their opinions on this debate, I'll chime in. I don't really "care" whether a 1st degree, premeditated murderer receives DP or LWOP as long as they are never released. I'm not someone is going to have a heart attack because someone got DP instead of LWOP or vice versa. Having said that, I do prefer LWOP. Let's say that two 30-year-olds commit murder. One of them receives LWOP, the other receives DP. The LWOP dies at age 80 so he spends 50 years in prison. The DP one is executed 10 years after the crime so he spends 10 years in prison. Who suffered more? I do not know whether there is a hell or not so I'm not going to reassure myself that the DP killer one is there to make myself feel like he was punished.

In many states, the DP takes decades to take place. It is becoming "symbolic" IMO. Look at Samantha Runnion's case. Avila will never be executed but he got DP so the state can say, "We recognize what happened to Samantha was the worst of the worst." It seems like it's just becoming a way to separate murderers from which ones are "worse."

This is an excellent post, and you are making my point. When a case drags on and on through decades, the sentence imposed by the original judge or jury becomes less likely to be enforced. Because the original sentence amounts to telling professional people--some of whom may have been in diapers or not even born at the time of the crime--"you must do what we decided thirty or forty years ago." Well, these professionals are people who work hard, and enter the justice system or law enforcement in order to make their marks in the field. They don't come into it for the purpose of "being bossed around" by some judge who made a ruling 30 years ago.

As the faces working on a case change through the years, the thoughts, values, and agendas change too. And the fact that Manson was sentenced to death--only to have the death penalty abolished throughout the whole state--just illustrates this. Once Manson is convicted, his sentence is binding on him to the extent that the state is willing to carry it out ... but that sentence is not binding on any of the workers who get involved in the case. Not when they have so many legal avenues for overturning it if the trend goes against enforcing it.

As a side issue: I have heard legal analysts saying that LWOP is almost as unenforceable as the DP because there are not enough cells or money in the budget to support an unlimited # of LWOP inmates. So if nothing else, jurisdictions end up with practical motives for reversing these decisions.

It's in the news every week if not every day, how some person's original sentence was altered and a person who was never supposed to be set free has been set free. Thus, like you, I don't lose any sleep if one of these really nasty criminals is put to death--hurry up quick, while we've got the criminal, the conviction, and the state's willingness to enforce the DP all in one basket!
I would get nervous if the trend ever went toward putting someone to death based on one conviction ... but once that first appeal has brought back a second guilty conviction with no reduction in charges, I'm ready for that person to be gone!

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It's in the news every week if not every day, how some person's original sentence was altered and a person who was never supposed to be set free has been set free. Thus, like you, I don't lose any sleep if one of these really nasty criminals is put to death--hurry up quick, while we've got the criminal, the conviction, and the state's willingness to enforce the DP all in one basket!

There are not people getting released every week who were sentenced to LWOP. I know what stories you're referring to but those people were sentenced to something like "20 to life" where they will be up for parole after X amount of years. Like I said before, if you are given LWOP, you will never be released unless evidence comes out proving your innocent or if the governor pardons you. There are TWO types of life imprisonment sentences---with parole and without parole. The people who get released were able to be eligible for parole.

As a side issue: I have heard legal analysts saying that LWOP is almost as unenforceable as the DP because there are not enough cells or money in the budget to support an unlimited # of LWOP inmates. So if nothing else, jurisdictions end up with practical motives for reversing these decisions.

The reason why there isn't enough money is because we give people like 10 years for just drug possession. I think I read that 50% of people in jail are there for drugs. The people who get DP and LWOP are the worst of the worst and there aren't that many of them compared to the people who commit smaller felonies but still go to jail and take up room and money. A state would never be allowed to release someone who was LWOP or DP because their sentences says they can't be released. They would go and release someone with a lesser sentence if they wanted to save some money.

Also, if you're so worried about LWOP being overturned than why aren't you worried about someone's DP sentence being overturned?

 

[DreamyEye]

There are not people getting released every week who were sentenced to LWOP. I know what stories you're referring to but those people were sentenced to something like "20 to life" where they will be up for parole after X amount of years. Like I said before, if you are given LWOP, you will never be released unless evidence comes out proving your innocent or if the governor pardons you. There are TWO types of life imprisonment sentences---with parole and without parole. The people who get released were able to be eligible for parole.



The reason why there isn't enough money is because we give people like 10 years for just drug possession. I think I read that 50% of people in jail are there for drugs. The people who get DP and LWOP are the worst of the worst and there aren't that many of them compared to the people who commit smaller felonies but still go to jail and take up room and money. A state would never be allowed to release someone who was LWOP or DP because their sentences says they can't be released. They would go and release someone with a lesser sentence if they wanted to save some money.

Also, if you're so worried about LWOP being overturned than why aren't you worried about someone's DP sentence being overturned?

I absolutely am worried about it. Manson's original sentence was the DP. Now he's regularly up for parole. We're promised he'll likely never get out. But as long as he's allowed parole hearings, there's a chance that he might be. This is what I mean about the original sentence not always holding up. Darned right I'm worried about it--and he is not the only one. MOO.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I absolutely am worried about it. Manson's original sentence was the DP. Now he's regularly up for parole. We're promised he'll likely never get out. But as long as he's allowed parole hearings, there's a chance that he might be. This is what I mean about the original sentence not always holding up. Darned right I'm worried about it--and he is not the only one. MOO.

Charles Manson was sentenced to death. The California Supreme Court temporarily got rid of the death penalty. All DP inmates had their sentences changed to life in prison. At the time, there was no life in prison WITHOUT PAROLE sentence. If you were given life, you were eligible for parole after a certain amount of years. This is different from 2010 when there are two types of life sentences---with parole and without parole. In the 70s, everyone who was sentenced to life was eligible for parole. That is why Charles Manson is able to come up for parole every X amount of years. Now in 2010, we have the sentence of life in prison WITHOUT PAROLE. If you get LWOP, you will never get out of prison because you can't get parole. Charles Manson does not have that sentence. He has the life in prison sentence where he is eligible for parole because at the time, there was no LWOP sentence. If there was LWOP in the 70s, that is what Charles Manson would have gotten. But since it didn't exist at the time, he couldn't have gotten that sentence. In my former state, we recently got rid of the DP so everyone's sentence was reduced to LWOP. Those people will never be released from prison. In California, when they got rid of the DP, all death row inmates had their sentences changed to life in prison since that was now the most severe sentence. At the time, everyone who was sentenced to "life" meant that you would eligible for parole. Now, California has LWOP so if they did get rid of the DP this time, the sentences would be commuted to LWOP. I don't understand why you would be worried about people with LWOP being released. States might get rid of the DP but they will never get rid of LWOP. With LWOP, you will never be released from prison. You will never even go in front of a parole board.

 

[froginTtown]

Until I know who the perp. is and why this crime was commited, I don't feel comfortable answering the question.. but I'm not against the Death Penalty either... There has to be a detorant for these crimes against our children... as well as consequences..

 

[pdx]

Until I know who the perp. is and why this crime was commited, I don't feel comfortable answering the question.. but I'm not against the Death Penalty either... There has to be a detorant for these crimes against our children... as well as consequences..

Hello

That brings up an interesting point for me... the law is supposed to be blind. The question in front of us assumes that the person is the person guilty of the crime.
"What sentence would you prefer if guilty of pre meditated homicide"

Theoretically, our answers should be consistent (to ourselves individually) regardless of who the perp is. "If the crime is X, what do you sentence?".

hmm.

 

[JBean]

Hello

That brings up an interesting point for me... the law is supposed to be blind. The question in front of us assumes that the person is the person guilty of the crime.
"What sentence would you prefer if guilty of pre meditated homicide"

Theoretically, our answers should be consistent (to ourselves individually) regardless of who the perp is. "If the crime is X, what do you sentence?".

hmm.

Well, actually justice may be blind in the guilt phase but the sentencing phase is not blind at all.
Typically mitigating and aggravating factors are introduced and that has everything to do with what the sentence will be. In other words, who the convicted is will have everything to do with the final sentence.

 

[DreamyEye]

Charles Manson was sentenced to death. The California Supreme Court temporarily got rid of the death penalty. All DP inmates had their sentences changed to life in prison. At the time, there was no life in prison WITHOUT PAROLE sentence. If you were given life, you were eligible for parole after a certain amount of years. This is different from 2010 when there are two types of life sentences---with parole and without parole. In the 70s, everyone who was sentenced to life was eligible for parole. That is why Charles Manson is able to come up for parole every X amount of years. Now in 2010, we have the sentence of life in prison WITHOUT PAROLE. If you get LWOP, you will never get out of prison because you can't get parole. Charles Manson does not have that sentence. He has the life in prison sentence where he is eligible for parole because at the time, there was no LWOP sentence. If there was LWOP in the 70s, that is what Charles Manson would have gotten. But since it didn't exist at the time, he couldn't have gotten that sentence. In my former state, we recently got rid of the DP so everyone's sentence was reduced to LWOP. Those people will never be released from prison. In California, when they got rid of the DP, all death row inmates had their sentences changed to life in prison since that was now the most severe sentence. At the time, everyone who was sentenced to "life" meant that you would eligible for parole. Now, California has LWOP so if they did get rid of the DP this time, the sentences would be commuted to LWOP. I don't understand why you would be worried about people with LWOP being released. States might get rid of the DP but they will never get rid of LWOP. With LWOP, you will never be released from prison. You will never even go in front of a parole board.

Eileenhawkeye, I wish I shared your faith in the system, but people are always agitating to change the laws. This is constant. At one time the DP was law. Then it wasn't. Then in some areas it was/is. A person or a faction can keep dragging an issue from court to court until it's finally brought before a judge that will reverse someone else's ruling. Sooner or later someone will agitate to have LWOP declared unconstitutional. It already has been declared unconstitutional for juviniles. If it follows true to other developments in the legal system, LWOP will be upheld and upheld, until finally a judge reverses it.

Heck, in the last week alone, it's been illegal--then legal--then illegal again for gays to serve openly in the military ... and I know that has nothing to do with Kyron's case whatsoever ... except that it explains my concern that when someone is finally convicted for whatever crimes were done to him, that person is apt to start out with a harsh sentence, but eventually get off with something much lighter due to legal hauranging. My simple observation following from this: If a convicted killer can finally be executed, there won't be any more appeals or reversals in the case.

But I hope to God you are right, that LWOP (or harsher) can and will be enforced against the killer IF the premise of this thread turns out to be reality--that this is a case of 1st degree murder.

 

[Kaybug]

I voted for a reduced sentence for the location of Kryon's body. That would be reduced sentence from death to LWOP for the location.

I believe in this case she could get the death penalty and even though it would be years before she would be executed she would be faced with the thought everyday that she was going to be put to death eventually.

So a deal of LWOP, I would think, would be appealing to her to make a deal.

 

[Calliope]

I voted for a reduced sentence for the location of Kryon's body. That would be reduced sentence from death to LWOP for the location.

I believe in this case she could get the death penalty and even though it would be years before she would be executed she would be faced with the thought everyday that she was going to be put to death eventually.

So a deal of LWOP, I would think, would be appealing to her to make a deal.

I wouldn't consider LWOP an incentive.

 

[Calliope]

Well, actually justice may be blind in the guilt phase but the sentencing phase is not blind at all.
Typically mitigating and aggravating factors are introduced and that has everything to do with what the sentence will be. In other words, who the convicted is will have everything to do with the final sentence.

Kinda off topic but maybe not (lol), I was flipping through channels the other day and saw a sentencing hearing. Florida, IIRC. Where people get up and address the court regarding the perp's character, etc. I'm assuming the victim's family and friends get to speak, too (I only saw a little bit so I missed that part). I've often wondered how much weight the court actually gives these when passing sentence.

There appeared to be quite a few people speaking out on behalf of this young man. It was rather impressive --- clergy, LE, upstanding local businessmen, etc.

I didn't know anything about the case, other than the note he'd been convicted of murder. It said his defense was the victim fell on his knife, killing himself.

The next notation was that the victim had been stabbed 12 times.

Jeeeeez.

It was at that point I switched the TV off ...

 

[Suthrnqt]

I voted for reduced sentence for location of Kyron.

 

[GrainneDhu]

In for a penny, in for a pound: not only am I anti-death penalty, I am also against unnecessarily harsh prison conditions, particularly solitary confinement (which has been shown to have terrible effects on mental health).

I don't believe in sentencing as a deterrent because it seems to me that the vast majority of criminals believe they will not be caught at the time they commit their crimes.

To lose one's freedom is a terrible thing. I'm drawing on my own experience here of being confined to a burn unit for over four months. It was terrible and every tiny bit of the experience was terrible... and I even got pain control meds for some of the worst aspects of the experience (not all, unfortunately).

Some things that seem petty were the things that wore on me the most. For instance, the cooks at that institution had apparently never heard of any sort of lettuce but iceberg nor of any vegetable that shouldn't be steamed into limp, soggy submission. When I was finally released from the hospital, I ate real salad and fresh veggies four times a day for well over a month! Forget breakfast foods, bring on the veggies!

On a more serious note, I believe that people who commit violent crimes are generally people who are sick or broken in some way. These are people who need help, not people whose mental health needs to be worsened.

I believe in sentences of life without parole for some crimes but I believe it should be carried out as comfortably as is consonant with security concerns.