the argument between Patsy and JonBenet

[trixie]

I don't think Patsy drank alcohol. She was on anti cancer drugs I believe, and they weren't supposed to be taken with alcohol.

In Steve Thomas' book he says Patsy was not taking any medications related to cancer or anything else. That question was asked of her in one of the interviews and she confirmed it. I don't remember which interview. So that is actually from Patsys own mouth. He also says she drank wine at the Whites Christmas dinner, which is also cinfirmed by Patsy in a police interview.

 

[trixie]

Shanny,

In my RDI theory I have this earmarked as a potential fabrication, since 1. There is no corroboration and 2. Patsy may be simply explaining away forgotten forensic evidence!

JonBenet may have actually worn that red sweater at some point, it could have played a part in a prior staging, but its obvious existence required some extraordinary explanation, hence the 'riff'

This feat of memory recovery including the detail is in contrast to other details such as did JonBenet change her underwear the day of the White's party, did she bath or wash, who supervised her. Or when JonBenet was being undressed for bed did Patsy remove her underwear or socks, even what color they were? All reduce to amnesic replies!

JOHN RAMSEY corroborates the "little riff" story in his police interview.

 

[rashomon]

In Steve Thomas' book he says Patsy was not taking any medications related to cancer or anything else. That question was asked of her in one of the interviews and she confirmed it. I don't remember which interview. So that is actually from Patsys own mouth. He also says she drank wine at the Whites Christmas dinner, which is also cinfirmed by Patsy in a police interview.

Thanks for the info Trixie. As I posted before, in view of the fact that alcohol plays such a huge role in many domestic violence cases, I can imagine its ingestion could - in combination with other stress factors - have contributed to drive Patsy do something she normally never would have done.

I see you did not include the first part of my post. Lets discuss that ... do you think Patsy would voluntarily bring up the fact that she and JB had a riff,if it was that riff that precipitated Patsy to accidentally bash JonBenet's skull? I don't think so.

Capps: I think Patsy consciously mentioned the riff about the clothes to direct the intention away from the bedwetting, which probably had made her a lot more furious on that fatal night than JonBenet wanting to wear other clothes than her mother wanted her to wear.

 

[ellen13]

Probably what's even weirder about the whole thing is the need for Patsy to make JBR match her. Never in my entire life have my mom intentionally matched. Just her need to have them matching is kind of weird!!

 

[aussiesheila]

do you think Patsy would voluntarily bring up the fact that she and JB had a riff,if it was that riff that precipitated Patsy to accidentally bash JonBenet's skull? I don't think so.

Good point.

 

[aussiesheila]

In Steve Thomas' book he says Patsy was not taking any medications related to cancer or anything else. That question was asked of her in one of the interviews and she confirmed it. I don't remember which interview. So that is actually from Patsys own mouth. He also says she drank wine at the Whites Christmas dinner, which is also cinfirmed by Patsy in a police interview.

Thanks for correcting me trixie. I think I had remembered incorrectly. I read somewhere that John said that Patsy did not drink much at all because she had had cancer, I supposed meaning that she did not think it was good for her health to drink alcohol.

 

[ellen13]

It's just amazing that they can so clearly remember the "riff" but they can't recall anything else.

 

[sharpar]

Guilty people try to explain away evidence before they are asked about it .
Much better to report a minor tiff over a shirt than the incident that set this
murder in motion.

 

[rashomon]

Good point.

As I said before, mentioning the riff could have been a conscious attempt by Patsy to direct the attention away from what really had caused her rage (the bedwetting for example).

 

[rashomon]

People don't just 'snap' out of the blue. Even if they have never shown violent behavior before, this doesn't mean too much. People often put their best foot forward in public and hide their darker side. And stressful events can be the trigger which unleashes what has been brewing in them.
Patsy Ramsey for example has always been presented as a very indulgent and patient parent of whom her supporters could not imagine to have snapped just because JB had wet the bed just one more time.
But there is an interesting passage in Thomas' book (p. 326/327) where Patsy becomes aggressive during the interview with Tom Haney (bold type mine):

Haney said they were not ready to show her evidence and challenged her further. "Pal, you don't want to go there, " she warned, adding that she was a good Christian woman who did not lie. She pushed back against the couch and exhaled in disgust. "Criminy", she explained.
Haney continued to be inhospitable and probed about whether the death could have been an accident resulting from bed-wetting. Patsy held up a hand, like a stop sign. "You're going down the wrong path, buddy!"
Later she said, "If John Ramsey were involved, honey, we wouldn't be sitting here. I'd have knocked his block off. Read my lips! This was not done by a family member. Didn't happen. Period. End of statement."
Still Haney came on, polite but insistent, inquiring about any family secrets, and she tired of him. "Cut to the chase", she barked.
"Oh, no," Haney responded smoothly, "That would spoil the ride."
"Then spoil my ride", Patsy said, riveting him. She didn't give an inch.
It was a spellbinding exchange. Tom Haney, with his no-nonsense style and three days in which to ask his questions, had found something I felt had to be there somewhere not too far below that polished beauty queen surface. Patsy Ramsey had, for a few minutes, lifted her mask. Beneath it, I saw cold rage.

Too bad the Ramseys have never been psychologically evaluated. What do we really know about Patsy's childhood and possible detrimental influences which may have shaped her character? Another dark area.

Burke btw when interviewed said that JonBnet's bedwetting was a big problem. And to someone like Patsy who wanted a perfect little doll as a child, JonBenet's silent protest through bedwetting was probably a continuing insult to her mother's narcissistic personality.

 

[tipper]

Actually, according to Pierce Brooks in Small Sacrifices, innocent parents do become aggressive when accused of murdering their children. It's the guilty ones that respond passively to the suggestion.

 

[rashomon]

Actually, according to Pierce Brooks in Small Sacrifices, innocent parents do become aggressive when accused of murdering their children. It's the guilty ones that respond passively to the suggestion.

I don't think that there is a rule for that. Diane Downs was totally unmoved, while e. g. family killer Jeffrey MacDonald became pretty aggressive when he realized the police regarded him as the prime suspect.
Sure a person unjustly suspected can express shock, even outrage, but there is a difference between outrage and the kind of anger Patsy shows in her reply. There is arrogance where there should not be arrogance, and a disrespectful condescension toward the interviewer.
"Cut to the chase", she barked at Haney when he asked her about family secrets.
"Pal, you don't want to go there" she warned Haney when he confronted her with incriminating evidence. This sounds almost like a threat.
Another example: "You're going down the wrong path, buddy", she told Haney, holding up her hand like a stop sign when he asks her if bedwetting could have triggered her rage.
Calling a detective 'pal' and 'buddy' is disrespectful and inappropriate, given the situation. Patsy clearly wants to be the one in power and intimidate Haney to prevent him from digging deeper into the truth.

 

[Toltec]

Shanny, I think this is an illustration of yet another unpleasant facet of Patsy's personality - dominating and controlling. I think they had quite some 'little, little riff', Patsy ended up balling the red sweater and dumping it, sorry, I forget, was it in the bathroom? and JonBenet retreated to her bedroom.

Also, I think as JonBenet continued dressing for the party, she realised she needed to change her panties, and rather than getting a pair of her regular panties out of the bathroom cupboard where they were kept, she decided to unwrap the packet of the size 12 panties in her bedroom cupboard and wear a pair of them. This way she could avoid leaving her room and having another ugly encounter with her mother.

So

You expect JonBenet to read the word Wednesday on her panties...but not Burke, Mom, Dad on the Christmas tags?

 

[ellen13]

People don't just 'snap' out of the blue. Even if they have never shown violent behavior before, this doesn't mean too much. People often put their best foot forward in public and hide their darker side. And stressful events can be the trigger which unleashes what has been brewing in them.
Patsy Ramsey for example has always been presented as a very indulgent and patient parent of whom her supporters could not imagine to have snapped just because JB had wet the bed just one more time.
But there is an interesting passage in Thomas' book (p. 326/327) where Patsy becomes aggressive during the interview with Tom Haney (bold type mine):

Haney said they were not ready to show her evidence and challenged her further. "Pal, you don't want to go there, " she warned, adding that she was a good Christian woman who did not lie. She pushed back against the couch and exhaled in disgust. "Criminy", she explained.
Haney continued to be inhospitable and probed about whether the death could have been an accident resulting from bed-wetting. Patsy held up a hand, like a stop sign. "You're going down the wrong path, buddy!"
Later she said, "If John Ramsey were involved, honey, we wouldn't be sitting here. I'd have knocked his block off. Read my lips! This was not done by a family member. Didn't happen. Period. End of statement."
Still Haney came on, polite but insistent, inquiring about any family secrets, and she tired of him. "Cut to the chase", she barked.
"Oh, no," Haney responded smoothly, "That would spoil the ride."
"Then spoil my ride", Patsy said, riveting him. She didn't give an inch.
It was a spellbinding exchange. Tom Haney, with his no-nonsense style and three days in which to ask his questions, had found something I felt had to be there somewhere not too far below that polished beauty queen surface. Patsy Ramsey had, for a few minutes, lifted her mask. Beneath it, I saw cold rage.

Too bad the Ramseys have never been psychologically evaluated. What do we really know about Patsy's childhood and possible detrimental influences which may have shaped her character? Another dark area.

Burke btw when interviewed said that JonBnet's bedwetting was a big problem. And to someone like Patsy who wanted a perfect little doll as a child, JonBenet's silent protest through bedwetting was probably a continuing insult to her mother's narcissistic personality.

I think I said this before, but with all of their money, they should have taken JBR to a specialist in urology for her bedwetting if it was such a problem. They have an excellent pediatric urologist right there in the state of Colorado. They should have researched it!! I've said it before. There are so many things that can be done for bed wetters-alarms to wake them up and go when urine is detected, a diet with no caffeine or citrus, acid, and no water or drinks after 6 p.m. Also, urinary incontinence can also be caused by chronic constipation, which would explain the state of her underwear. Kids that are chronically constipated just move their bowels
a little, without ever getting it all out. She should have been on a high fiber diet. The bowels do affect the bladder. On a different note (unrelated to the bowel) for all we know, her lining of her bladder could have been inflamed and there are good medications for this. Nothing against pediatricians because they do a heck of a job with many areas, but they aren't specially trained in urology and they don't always know how to treat bedwetting, this is why they refer to specialists. I think getting JBR more help with this was a big mistake. Some kids don't outgrow this until up to age 16. And then, if you have the whole element of sexual abuse, she could have been getting bladder infections. Poor little thing didn't stand a chance. With all of the specialists they got Patsy for her cancer, they could have researched a doctor to help JBR.:waitasec: In addition, most bedwetters aren't doing it on purpose. That's a big misconception. However, in JBR's case, I don't know if she did it on purpose. Only a small percentage do.

 

[aussiesheila]

So

You expect JonBenet to read the word Wednesday on her panties...but not Burke, Mom, Dad on the Christmas tags?

You mean she was six and couldn't read?

 

[ellen13]

You mean she was six and couldn't read?

In kindergarten, she was doing first grade math and the days of the week are one of the first things kids learn how to read because the teacher goes over a large calendar time every day. We even teach kids songs of the days of the week while doing the Macarena dance. JBR could have definitely read the word Wednesday-no doubt.

 

[aussiesheila]

In kindergarten, she was doing first grade math and the days of the week are one of the first things kids learn how to read because the teacher goes over a large calendar time every day. We even teach kids songs of the days of the week while doing the Macarena dance. JBR could have definitely read the word Wednesday-no doubt.

That's what I thought, thanks ellen

 

[Wuschel]

[/b]

I think I said this before, but with all of their money, they should have taken JBR to a specialist in urology for her bedwetting if it was such a problem. They have an excellent pediatric urologist right there in the state of Colorado. They should have researched it!! I've said it before. There are so many things that can be done for bed wetters-alarms to wake them up and go when urine is detected, a diet with no caffeine or citrus, acid, and no water or drinks after 6 p.m. Also, urinary incontinence can also be caused by chronic constipation, which would explain the state of her underwear. Kids that are chronically constipated just move their bowels
a little, without ever getting it all out. She should have been on a high fiber diet. The bowels do affect the bladder. On a different note (unrelated to the bowel) for all we know, her lining of her bladder could have been inflamed and there are good medications for this. Nothing against pediatricians because they do a heck of a job with many areas, but they aren't specially trained in urology and they don't always know how to treat bedwetting, this is why they refer to specialists. I think getting JBR more help with this was a big mistake. Some kids don't outgrow this until up to age 16. And then, if you have the whole element of sexual abuse, she could have been getting bladder infections. Poor little thing didn't stand a chance. With all of the specialists they got Patsy for her cancer, they could have researched a doctor to help JBR.:waitasec: In addition, most bedwetters aren't doing it on purpose. That's a big misconception. However, in JBR's case, I don't know if she did it on purpose. Only a small percentage do.

I agree, Ellen, but what if the doctor told Patsy that JonBenet's life as a child beauty queen was too stressful and that she was merely responding to that by wetting the bed?

As far as I know, in many cases children do not wet the bed for physical reasons but out of emotional distress once they have outgrown diapers.

I would not think that Patsy would have taken such an advice well, since she had lots of her self esteem based on JonBenet's success. And I would not bet my life that she would have followed that advice and taken JonBenet off her "duties". Maybe she just disregaded it and figured that the child would get over it in due time?

This is just speculation, of course.

 

[ellen13]

I agree, Ellen, but what if the doctor told Patsy that JonBenet's life as a child beauty queen was too stressful and that she was merely responding to that by wetting the bed?

As far as I know, in many cases children do not wet the bed for physical reasons but out of emotional distress once they have outgrown diapers.

I would not think that Patsy would have taken such an advice well, since she had lots of her self esteem based on JonBenet's success. And I would not bet my life that she would have followed that advice and taken JonBenet off her "duties". Maybe she just disregaded it and figured that the child would get over it in due time?

This is just speculation, of course.

Wuschel,
You might find this interesting:
So what are common traits shared by at least some bedwetting children?

• They tend to have smaller bladders than their dry peers. Many must empty their bladder every couple hours during the day.
• Some children may wet less if certain foods are removed from the diet. Dairy products are the most commonly mentioned foods to be an "allergic" cause of bedwetting. Some authors claim that food can cause bedwetting even in children who show no other sign of an allergy to that food.
• Most people have a hormone cycle that regulates urine production so that more urine is produced during waking hours than during sleeping hours. Recently it has been noted that some but not all children who are bedwetters are missing this cycle.
• A reasonable number of bedwetting children have urinary urgency. They get little warning of the need to urinate. Pant wetting is much more common in older bedwetters than most believe because parents seldom report it to doctors. We have seen studies of teenaged bedwetters where more than half of the children also have diurnal enuresis ( pants wetting).
• Despite the old wives' tales emotional problems are almost never the primary cause of primary bedwetting, but you can still find books and Web pages that class bedwetting as an emotional or behavior problem. Children do not wet the bed on purpose. "The idea that the child [wets at night] out of spite / hostility or as a way to gain attention is almost unanimously rejected by professionals . . . there is just no evidence to support this position." (11) Neither is bedwetting a symptom of a deep-seated emotion problem. Stress and emotional problems may on occasion be involved when a child who has long been dry returns to wetting. But do not jump to conclusions. Studies have found that bedwetting children are no more emotionally ill than a like sample of dry children.
• While bedwetting is very seldom the parents' fault there are reports that very early toilet training (less than one year) increases the likelihood of persistent bedwetting.
• While most children have no major physical problem or disease the possibility should not be ignored. Particularly if a dry child returns to wetting (secondary enuresis) it is possible that the problem is caused by a bladder or kidney infection which could cause serious damage if left untreated.
• It appears that children with certain learning disabilities, in particular ADD or ADHD are more likely to be bedwetters than other children. But MOST children who are bedwetters are not learning disabled. Please read our note on this topic.

Assuming a child has good routine medical care and the doctor is told of the bedwetting you probably do not have to get any special medical attention for a preschool child with primary enuresis.

A seven-year-old particularly one who also has daytime accidents should have a reevaluation which may include neurological tests. The result will most likely be negative, but it never hurts to be sure.

When should a parent do something?

Most but not all children will outgrow nighttime wetting. That does not mean that you have to wait for nature to take its course, but there is little reason to "cure to the problem" until it is a problem. The time to start treatment is when the bedwetting becomes a problem for the child. "One must resist the temptation to treat the frustrated parent and begin therapy on a disinterested child." (Dr. Frank Cerniglia Jr. 14) Most authors try to convince parents to wait until their child is five to seven years old before considering remedial training.

Bedwetting is not a "problem" at two years and it is hard to see why it becomes a problem at 3 ½. Bedwetting is seldom a "problem" for a preschool child unless there is strong parental disapproval. For older school age children the problem is one of self image and that is as much a product of parental outlook as it is a result of the problem. Parental ridicule is of no help whatever and "disciplining him out of it" is usually sadism.

This is from a bed-wetting site.
Thanks,
Ellen

 

[sissi]

from kidshealth.com

Many kids who wet the bed are very deep sleepers. Do your parents complain that it's hard to wake you up? Could you sleep through a marching band parading outside your bedroom door? Or a pack of dogs howling at the moon? Trying to wake up someone who wets the bed is often like trying to wake a log - they just stay asleep.

A note, My dry ones were dry before potty training, the wet ones, some were wet until their teens. The difference in the way they slept was very obvious. A sheet placed on a dry one, got a nice, "thank you". Picking up a wet one after a fall out of bed , did not get a response, because they were still asleep.