the argument between Patsy and JonBenet

Thank you, Ellen and Sisi, for your profound statements on the reasons of bed wetting, which were very interesting to read. I am sure that there are many causes for it, some of them physical and some of them not. My hubby, who is a doctor, tends to agree with my opinion, but then again he is not specialized in that field. The explanations you have given for bedwetting make sense, but so do mine. In the end, we will never know what caused JB's problems in particular. If she was the victim of constant abuse, maybe the infection-theory is likely.

Let me change my arguments a little and lets say that Patsy - like me - thought that bed wetting is usually a sign of emotional trouble and therefore did not take JB to a doctor for fear that he would tell her to give the girl a break. Maybe that is an explanation why she was not thoroughly treated.

I have heard, however, that she had quite frequent visits to the doctor, one of them because she had an infection of the urinary system.

Wuschel
 
Some children wet the bed and according to John, his older children wet the bed as had Burke. So it was not unusual that JonBenet wet the bed....but it bothered Patsy nonetheless. I don't recall reading anywhere that she sought advice for Burke's bedwetting.
 
I've never seen it written "anywhere" that it bothered Patsy. Unless ST is the source? She stated that it was not a problem, John's older children wet the bed, Burke wet the bed, having Jonbenet wet the bed was not unexpected nor anything to bring about concern.
 
pAM gRIFFIN WAS THE ONE WHO SAID pATSY WAS BOTHERED BY jONBENETS BEDWETTING. sHE WOULD GO OVER THERE AND HANG OUT WHILE pAM gRIFFEN SEWED COSTUMES. sHE SAYS pATSY ALSO TALKED TO HER ALOT ABOUT HER CANCER. dON'T ASK ME WHERE I READ IT, I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH BOOK AS i'VE READ THEM ALL.
(sORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, I DIDN'T REALIZE IT AND NOW IT'S TOO LATE TO TYPE ALL THIS ALL OVER AGAIN. i'M NOT YELLING, HONEST.) oH, AND ALSO bURKE SAID IT REALLY WAS A BIG DEAL. i THINK THAT WAS A GRAND JURY LEAK.
 
ellen13 said:
In kindergarten, she was doing first grade math and the days of the week are one of the first things kids learn how to read because the teacher goes over a large calendar time every day. We even teach kids songs of the days of the week while doing the Macarena dance. JBR could have definitely read the word Wednesday-no doubt.

Thanks for clearing that up, Ellen.

And I don't remember if anyone's mentioned, bedwetting can be due to a simple allergy to milk or something.

JonBenet may have been in a rage herself , due to her own stresses, and balled up the red sweater. And PR certainly did back off, proving, I think, she did not have too much temper. Didn't the housekeeper or someone say PR let the kids get away with too much?
 
Eagle1 said:
Thanks for clearing that up, Ellen.

And I don't remember if anyone's mentioned, bedwetting can be due to a simple allergy to milk or something.

JonBenet may have been in a rage herself , due to her own stresses, and balled up the red sweater. And PR certainly did back off, proving, I think, she did not have too much temper. Didn't the housekeeper or someone say PR let the kids get away with too much?
Yes, the housekeeper said JB and Burke where totally spoiled. But even very indulgent parents can lose their temper if their buttons are pushed at the wrong moment. Patsy was under pretty much stress, and I believe she was also the type to take on more tasks than she could handle. The housekeeper (or a friend, I don't remember exaxtly) said Patsy always put off things until the last minute. Christmas stress, a couple of glasses of wine at the party, having to prepar for tomorrow's trip (where she didn't really want to go), JB having wet the bed yet once again, and who knows what other things were in Patsy's mind. Maybe she wasn't that happy at all under the glamorous surface. I think it was a build-up of stress which finally led to the tragic explosion.
 
ellen13 said:
Wuschel,
You might find this interesting:
So what are common traits shared by at least some bedwetting children?


  • They tend to have smaller bladders than their dry peers. Many must empty their bladder every couple hours during the day.
  • Some children may wet less if certain foods are removed from the diet. Dairy products are the most commonly mentioned foods to be an "allergic" cause of bedwetting. Some authors claim that food can cause bedwetting even in children who show no other sign of an allergy to that food.
  • Most people have a hormone cycle that regulates urine production so that more urine is produced during waking hours than during sleeping hours. Recently it has been noted that some but not all children who are bedwetters are missing this cycle.
  • A reasonable number of bedwetting children have urinary urgency. They get little warning of the need to urinate. Pant wetting is much more common in older bedwetters than most believe because parents seldom report it to doctors. We have seen studies of teenaged bedwetters where more than half of the children also have diurnal enuresis ( pants wetting).
  • Despite the old wives' tales emotional problems are almost never the primary cause of primary bedwetting, but you can still find books and Web pages that class bedwetting as an emotional or behavior problem. Children do not wet the bed on purpose. "The idea that the child [wets at night] out of spite / hostility or as a way to gain attention is almost unanimously rejected by professionals . . . there is just no evidence to support this position." (11) Neither is bedwetting a symptom of a deep-seated emotion problem. Stress and emotional problems may on occasion be involved when a child who has long been dry returns to wetting. But do not jump to conclusions. Studies have found that bedwetting children are no more emotionally ill than a like sample of dry children.
  • While bedwetting is very seldom the parents' fault there are reports that very early toilet training (less than one year) increases the likelihood of persistent bedwetting.
  • While most children have no major physical problem or disease the possibility should not be ignored. Particularly if a dry child returns to wetting (secondary enuresis) it is possible that the problem is caused by a bladder or kidney infection which could cause serious damage if left untreated.
  • It appears that children with certain learning disabilities, in particular ADD or ADHD are more likely to be bedwetters than other children. But MOST children who are bedwetters are not learning disabled. Please read our note on this topic.
Assuming a child has good routine medical care and the doctor is told of the bedwetting you probably do not have to get any special medical attention for a preschool child with primary enuresis.

A seven-year-old particularly one who also has daytime accidents should have a reevaluation which may include neurological tests. The result will most likely be negative, but it never hurts to be sure.

When should a parent do something?

Most but not all children will outgrow nighttime wetting. That does not mean that you have to wait for nature to take its course, but there is little reason to "cure to the problem" until it is a problem. The time to start treatment is when the bedwetting becomes a problem for the child. "One must resist the temptation to treat the frustrated parent and begin therapy on a disinterested child." (Dr. Frank Cerniglia Jr. 14) Most authors try to convince parents to wait until their child is five to seven years old before considering remedial training.

Bedwetting is not a "problem" at two years and it is hard to see why it becomes a problem at 3 ½. Bedwetting is seldom a "problem" for a preschool child unless there is strong parental disapproval. For older school age children the problem is one of self image and that is as much a product of parental outlook as it is a result of the problem. Parental ridicule is of no help whatever and "disciplining him out of it" is usually sadism.

This is from a bed-wetting site.
Thanks,
Ellen
But it seems that JonBenet wet herself during daytime too, which would be an entirely different issue. Pam Griffin said Patsy told her that JB's infections were hard to treat because her underpants were always wet. ('Journey Beyond Reason', p. 244/245)
It is highly unusual for a six-year-old to wet herself constantly, and also to have still soiling accidents. This child was in deep trouble imo.
Did Patsy ever bring up JB's frequent bed- and daytime wetting on one of her countless visits to JB's pediatrician Dr. Boef?
 
sissi said:
I've never seen it written "anywhere" that it bothered Patsy. Unless ST is the source? She stated that it was not a problem, John's older children wet the bed, Burke wet the bed, having Jonbenet wet the bed was not unexpected nor anything to bring about concern.

According to Pam Griffin...Patsy did discuss JonBenet's bedwetting problem. The night of December 25th was a very stressful time for Patsy and I believe she lost it with a kicking and screaming JonBenet.
 
sissi said:
Yes this would have been a terrible problem if it was true, it's not.

Really ? You know this how ?
 
There is also a family tendency to bedwetting. My sister was married twice with children to both husbands. Her child from the first marriage wasn't a bedwetter but both children from the second marriage were - as had been their father and his brother and all three of the brother's children!
 
Toltec said:
According to Pam Griffin...Patsy did discuss JonBenet's bedwetting problem. The night of December 25th was a very stressful time for Patsy and I believe she lost it with a kicking and screaming JonBenet.

Assuming JonBenet consumed pineapple prior to her death, then the household appears fairly tranquil with Patsy serving up a pineapple snack and Burke sipping tea?

Whoever asphyxiates and inflicts serious head trauma on a 6-year old girl has patently lost it, but they did not hesitate, they carried right on strangling her, silencing JonBenet, this was intentional, you cannot accidently strangle your own daughter, probably manually too, even if you are enraged!


.
 
UKGuy said:
Assuming JonBenet consumed pineapple prior to her death, then the household appears fairly tranquil with Patsy serving up a pineapple snack and Burke sipping tea?

Whoever asphyxiates and inflicts serious head trauma on a 6-year old girl has patently lost it, but they did not hesitate, they carried right on strangling her, silencing JonBenet, this was intentional, you cannot accidently strangle your own daughter, probably manually too, even if you are enraged!


.

The bash on the head came first....the strangulation was staging.
 
Toltec said:
The bash on the head came first....the strangulation was staging.

Toltec,

I was not present, so you could be correct.

But why would a head bash require staging, that could be passed off as an acidental fall.

Why was she not rushed to the hospital, she was when Burke whacked her with a golf-club?

Why did she need to be whacked on the head, she was already contained within the house, going nowhere?


.
 
UKGuy said:
Toltec,

I was not present, so you could be correct.

But why would a head bash require staging, that could be passed off as an acidental fall.

Why was she not rushed to the hospital, she was when Burke whacked her with a golf-club?

Why did she need to be whacked on the head, she was already contained within the house, going nowhere?


.
JMO -

She was hit as punishment and perhaps too hard to explain away as an accident . Hospitals report serious injuries to children . Burke
hitting her was fairly minor compared to comtose or unconcious possibly with seizures or other signs of brain trauma.
I believe the strangulation and liguatures were an attempt to disguise
the cause of death. On the surface it would point to sexual killer which might immediately exclude the mother as a suspect in the eyes of LE .
Everything was to defect suspicion away from the culprit and sell
the maniac intruder theory.
 
Jayelles said:
There is also a family tendency to bedwetting. My sister was married twice with children to both husbands. Her child from the first marriage wasn't a bedwetter but both children from the second marriage were - as had been their father and his brother and all three of the brother's children!
But JonBenet obviously wet herself very often during daytime too, which imo is an a far more serious issue, for it is highly unusual for a six-year-old to wet herself so much during daytime. According to Pam Griffin, Patsy told her that JB's infections were hard to treat because her underpants were always wet. This child was in deep trouble imo.
 
rashomon said:
But it seems that JonBenet wet herself during daytime too, which would be an entirely different issue. Pam Griffin said Patsy told her that JB's infections were hard to treat because her underpants were always wet. ('Journey Beyond Reason', p. 244/245)
It is highly unusual for a six-year-old to wet herself constantly, and also to have still soiling accidents. This child was in deep trouble imo.
Did Patsy ever bring up JB's frequent bed- and daytime wetting on one of her countless visits to JB's pediatrician Dr. Boef?
Yes, there's dieurnal (daytime bedwetting) eneresis and nocturnal eneresis (nighttime bedwetting) (sp?) and can often have similar characteristics. Many little girls with daytime wetting will often do sort of a "curtsy" and it will help them to stop the frequency/urgency urge during the day. Like I said, many of these kids are also very constipated and their bowels are affected-which causes the soiling accidents.
 
sharpar said:
JMO -

She was hit as punishment and perhaps too hard to explain away as an accident . Hospitals report serious injuries to children . Burke
hitting her was fairly minor compared to comtose or unconcious possibly with seizures or other signs of brain trauma.
I believe the strangulation and liguatures were an attempt to disguise
the cause of death. On the surface it would point to sexual killer which might immediately exclude the mother as a suspect in the eyes of LE .
Everything was to defect suspicion away from the culprit and sell
the maniac intruder theory.

sharpar,

It may have been a punishment, but given the domestic atmosphere prior to her death, what changed to turned the xmas spirit into one of violent abuse?

Why all the staging, there was more than one attempt, forensic evidence has been removed, there is much more to JonBenet's death than a punsihment gone wrong!
 
That the million dollar question isnt it ? I contend that whatever occurred
was entirely in the mind of Patsy and had nothing to do with anything JB actually did. Patsy was agiated and JB paid the price. Its not that complicated but lots are stretching to make it so.
 
UKGuy said:
Toltec,

I was not present, so you could be correct.

But why would a head bash require staging, that could be passed off as an acidental fall.

Why was she not rushed to the hospital, she was when Burke whacked her with a golf-club?

Why did she need to be whacked on the head, she was already contained within the house, going nowhere?


.

Patsy was under tremendous stress that Christmas night. She had to finish packing for three trips....finish wrapping presents for the trip to Charlevoix. Earlier in the evening Patsy and JonBenet had butted heads over what to wear to the Whites. When Patsy woke JonBenet to use the potty, JonBenet was not having none of that. Patsy snapped and grabbed the first thing she saw....the flashlight.

Patsy snapped. Patsy snapped. People do snap.

Why the staging? It's simple. Self-preservation. What would she tell hospital personnel? I got angry and hit my daughter over the head?
 

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