The BASEMENT WINDOW and GRATE.

[Seeker]

I can't believe this. It is such a simple concept and yet still this is undetermined. Some say the web may have been rebuilt...other's say it couldn't have so it must not have been disturbed. Some say the scuff mark could have been from an intruder, while other insist it was John's from last summer when he broke into it himself. I think giving the weather conditions the spider wouldn't have bebuilt it. So my theory is the window wasn't a point of entry.

Bingo!! You got it Man. It's also been sumrised that the intruder entered through that window and the neighbors said they heard something scrape, at night, in the dark...if that were true then the intruder's initial thought would be to go back out the same way so he wouldn't have replaced the iron grate! It would be a hindrence to him during escape esp since it's up over his head.
It's so much harder to lift something up over your head to move it...

 

[ManInTheBox]

Bingo!! You got it Man. It's also been sumrised that the intruder entered through that window and the neighbors said they heard something scrape, at night, in the dark...if that were true then the intruder's initial thought would be to go back out the same way so he wouldn't have replaced the iron grate! It would be a hindrence to him during escape esp since it's up over his head.
It's so much harder to lift something up over your head to move it...

Did it ever occur to anyone the neighbors may not need to be trusted when hearing things. You know when u are told hey did u hear that crash last night or something and everyone is talking about it. Some people seem to convince themselves they heard something. That may have just been the case. They probably didn't hear any scrape. SOmeone probably mentioned the grate being moved and someone probably said..."hey that's right I think I heard some kind of scrape outside last night, well that's what it must have been. The grate over at the Ramsey house" Utterly rediculous. I agree with u 100% seeker.

 

[Nehemiah]

There is a question concerning this window, John Ramsey knew he had used it himself to enter the home, however, in the beginning we were getting police reports that the window was too small for ANYONE to use to gain entry.

John Ramsey also said during his deposition that he came thru the window at that time in his underwear. He stripped off his clothes outside and came in scantily clad! Imagine an intruder coming in there with heavy clothes on due to the extreme nighttime temp?

IMO

 

[sissi]

John Ramsey also said during his deposition that he came thru the window at that time in his underwear. He stripped off his clothes outside and came in scantily clad! Imagine an intruder coming in there with heavy clothes on due to the extreme nighttime temp?

IMO

No one was home, Patsy was away, he didn't want to muss his suit, it had nothing to do with easing his entry.
IMO

 

[Seeker]

Sissi, are you absolutely sure about that?

No one was home, Patsy was away, he didn't want to muss his suit, it had nothing to do with easing his entry.

I know this was covered in a released transcript, but I thought he said it was early in the morning (like around 3am) on a hot August evening when this happened. I thought he said that he didn't want to wake Patsy and the kids....I'll have to go to ACR's and find that now, or it'll bother me all day long.

You're right sissi, he said Patsy was at the lake. The interviewer says the grate was really heavy...hard to move and the angles one has to navigate down into the well and through the window are difficult as well.

ST: OK. When you had previously broken that basement window to gain entry to the home when you had been locked out, can you approximate what month that was?

JR: Well, I think it was last summer. Because Patsy was up at Lake (inaudible) all summer, and it would have been July or August probably, somewhere in that time frame.

ST: Did you remove that grate and get down into the window well?

JR: Uh-huh.

ST: And what did you use to break the pane?

JR: Ah, I don’t remember. Might have been my foot, I don’t know.

ST: OK. You reach in, I’m assuming, unlatched it and gain entry through that small window.

JR: Yeah.

ST: Did you then replace the grate onto that window well?

JR: Oh I probably would have done it that night. I’m sure I didn’t the next morning or, you know, or thereafter.

ST: Did you remove that whole grate off onto the, off the well, to jump down there and get in?

JR: Ah, probably. I don’t remember.

Another section has this:

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. And let's hop back to the grate for just a second, 'cause I picked the grate up, it's really heavy, I mean fairly heavy. Picked it up, moved it out of the way, kind of hopped down, I mean first peeked into that window, hopped down into that window well, you ended up, have to kick the window, break the window somehow, reach in and unlatch it. How far of a drop is it (to the basement floor), or is it a difficult I should say to drop from the window well..."

John Ramsey: "It's probably, I don't know, four feet maybe, five feet."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. But on the outside you've got that kind of skinny narrow window well. Did you have any difficulty sliding into that or sliding down the wall?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah, well, as I recall, I did it at night and I had a suit on, and I took my suit off and did it in my underwear. But, it's not easy, I mean, you can get in that way, you get dirty, but."

Tom Trujillo: "It's not a graceful way to get in?"

John Ramsey: "No, no."

Tom Trujillo: "It's difficult because of the angles?"

John Ramsey: "Right"

Steve Thomas: "Tom, let me just ask John this. Do you sit down and slide through, buttocks first if you will, through a window like that or, do you recall how you went through the actual window, John?"

John Ramsey: "I don't....remember. Seems like, I mean, I don't remember, but I think I would probably have gone in feet first."

Steve Thomas: "Feet first, backwards?"

John Ramsey: "Yeah."

Steve Thomas: "And when you went through in your underwear, were you wearing shoes...?"

John Ramsey: "I still had my shoes on, yeah."

Steve Thomas: "And were those with a suit, were they business shoes?"

John Ramsey: "They were probably, probably those shoes."

Steve Thomas: "Okay. And what are those shoes?"

John Ramsey: "Business shoes...shoes that I wear with a suit, just a pair of business shoes, dress shoes.

 

[Jayelles]

Of course, the basement window is just another "theory". It's perfectly feasible that an intruder could have entered the house by some other means.

The spider web is an interesting one. As the poster above says, the absence of a spider would be significant because one wouldn't expect the spider to be far away - especially not at a time when the spider isn't terribly active. The story as I remember it is that the species of spider whose web was on the basement grate was one which became inactive below a certain temperature.

Some intruder theorists argue that the temperature on that day rose high enough for the spider to become active and that it could have rewoven the web which would undoubtedly have been broken by anyone raising the grate to enter the window. If this is true, then one wonders if it was mild enough for hibernating spiders to waken up, then it would surely have been mild enough that any snow would have melted quickly. This makes nonsense of the RST mantra that there was no snow for there to be no footprints in the snow! (if that makes sense).

I personally think that the RST have some straws that they cling to with regard to evidence. The scuff mark, the packing peanut, the hi-tec print, ... None of these can be dated and are not going to convict anyone! As intruder evidence, they smack of desperation.

 

[sissi]

[
I personally think that the RST have some straws that they cling to with regard to evidence. The scuff mark, the packing peanut, the hi-tec print, ... None of these can be dated and are not going to convict anyone! As intruder evidence, they smack of desperation.[/QUOTE]

These things would only make sense if Jonbenet were returned to the house via that window. The packing peanut could certainly be in the train room ,but would have had to attach itself to something (like the blanket) to make it down the hall and into the wine cellar. The perp would have left himself options, a door ajar and the window, why he would choose the window I can not guess, unless the area was more hidden from possible view?

 

[UKGuy]

Basement Window:

In August JR broke the window, approx 3am, entered and all was well. So security in a sense was not high on JR's radar since the window was still broken late December.

In PMPT Fleet White says "He started in Burke's train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the at the window."

Somewhere else I read that there was pieces of glass, and no dust on the suitcase. Possibly not too significant. But may be relevant.

Its likely that the window and grate are just circumstantial red-herrings. Unless you imagine yourself as a kid, and its your playroom , and you know that that window is a clandestine way in and out. Naturally so will other kids, and if you invoke BDI adding the twist, re:sissi "These things would only make sense if Jonbenet were returned to the house via that window." After voluntarly letting herself out by the window, and meeting up with the perp.

 

[ManInTheBox]

Basement Window:

In August JR broke the window, approx 3am, entered and all was well. So security in a sense was not high on JR's radar since the window was still broken late December.

In PMPT Fleet White says "He started in Burke's train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the at the window."

Somewhere else I read that there was pieces of glass, and no dust on the suitcase. Possibly not too significant. But may be relevant.

Its likely that the window and grate are just circumstantial red-herrings. Unless you imagine yourself as a kid, and its your playroom , and you know that that window is a clandestine way in and out. Naturally so will other kids, and if you invoke BDI adding the twist, re:sissi "These things would only make sense if Jonbenet were returned to the house via that window." After voluntarly letting herself out by the window, and meeting up with the perp.

If there was a piece of glass on the suitcase. That possibilty is if a intruder did come through the window and indeed did break the glass he broke it from the outside with the broken pieces falling in. If they landed on the suitcase that means the suitcase was there to begin with. Though Fleet White messed it up (just like everythingt was messed up in this case) It is possible the police are making a mountain out of a molehill with the window. In your words a Red-Herring (whoa haven't heard that used in quite a while). That's my view of the glass on the suitcase (though this is the first I've ever heard of it and is your source accurate?)

 

[sissi]

Patsy said she was very concerned about the glass around the children and had cleaned up every bit and had asked LHP to vacuum again to insure the area was safe for children at play. She had also contracted with MP to fix the window in November. Did he? No one seems sure. For there to be glass on the floor it was either newly broken or newly disturbed. IMO

 

[ManInTheBox]

Patsy said she was very concerned about the glass around the children and had cleaned up every bit and had asked LHP to vacuum again to insure the area was safe for children at play. She had also contracted with MP to fix the window in November. Did he? No one seems sure. For there to be glass on the floor it was either newly broken or newly disturbed. IMO

No one seems sure if a plane of glass was fixed in someone's house not even the occupants. ARE THE RAMSEYS IDIOTS!?!? Did anyone even ask them?

 

[UKGuy]

sissi: Very interesting, one has to assume, "your" employee would cleanup. The possibility that the broken glass is new, moves it up the evidence scale to that of the "pineaple", and it becomes significant.

 

[UKGuy]

ManInTheBox: Its possible my source is suspect, this forum or another, or one of the books. As you say there is also the possibility that FW dropped some glass onto the suitcase, but if as sissi suggests, the room was hoovered, then its possible the glass is new, and I think thats where the lack of dust becomes relevant,

 

[sissi]

No one seems sure if a plane of glass was fixed in someone's house not even the occupants. ARE THE RAMSEYS IDIOTS!?!? Did anyone even ask them?

I think this is one of the huge problems with this case, they do seem like idiots! I do not think they know who murdered their child, however, it is easy to see why people think they did. Their thinking is off.
I can relate on a small scale, I have a friend, her parents died when she was 40'ish, she was living in the same house since birth, she called me and told me her house was so cold and the heat wouldn't come on. I asked her if she had purchased oil, she said ,"should I?" I suggested since her house was built in the 1920's and that if she doesn't recall shoveling coal that an oil truck probably filled a tank located somewhere either in her basement or back yard.
Okay, we solved this problem, the next winter she went on a ski trip , came home to a destroyed house, the pipes had burst, the radiators throughout the house had exploded , water damaged the ceilings ,the floors, etc. Why? Because she turned the heat off and took a trip. This woman held a managment level job with At@t for years, however yes,she is and was an IDIOT!

 

[Nehemiah]

LHP, the housekeeper said that she didn't recall ever seeing broken glass in the basement, or ever cleaning up broken glass there. Quite possible that the glass was from an earlier event and still there on that fateful day after many months. The Rs thought the Pughs had vacuumed it, but they didn't remember doing that. If the glass had been removed, that is a good case for an intruder breaking it to come inside, but if it were still there after John's "break in" from the summer, then it is not indicative of an intruder. Frustrating that there are so many things like this in the case...

IMO

 

[sissi]

LHP, the housekeeper said that she didn't recall ever seeing broken glass in the basement, or ever cleaning up broken glass there. Quite possible that the glass was from an earlier event and still there on that fateful day after many months. The Rs thought the Pughs had vacuumed it, but they didn't remember doing that. If the glass had been removed, that is a good case for an intruder breaking it to come inside, but if it were still there after John's "break in" from the summer, then it is not indicative of an intruder. Frustrating that there are so many things like this in the case...

IMO

Yes it is!
LHP led us to believe ,as well, that Patsy was a bit of a slob, indicating that utensils ,crumbs, plates could sit there for days until LHP came in to tidy up.
Does this mean the pineapple could have been sitting there for days? I can't imagine leaving glass on the floor with little feet at risk, given LHP was the housekeeper I would have expected she did clean it after Patsy's suggestion. What would "change" my opinion of things would be if this window was repaired by MP . I would wonder "what's in it for them to hide this fact".

Can anyone imagine that it wasn't fixed? Snow....rain...rodents..it doesn't make any sense that it stood broken for months!
When John Ramsey said he had broken that window himself, was this misinterpreted by LE to mean it was the same break? ...very frustrating, indeed....

 

[BlueCrab]

The most likely reason for the window to be broken was to STAGE a break-in by an intruder. I say this because there was also a blue suitcase under the window, as if to have something to step on, and this appears to be naive staging also.

An intruder, after being all over the house, wouldn't have used the basement window as the means to exit the house. He would have used one of the five doors on the first floor.

IMO the window was broken by a Ramsey to stage the entry point by an intruder. But It's hard to determine by whom and when. If staging, it was broken after JonBenet died but before the 911 call was made at 5:52 A.M., and could have been done by either Burke or by John.

A broken window in mid-winter in Colorado does not go unnoticed and unfixed. And LHP would have noticed the cold wind blowing in during her occasional trips to the downstairs laundry room, and at other times. She says she never noticed a broken window.

The Ramseys are probably lying about the window having been broken earlier in the year. The broken window appears more likely to be staging.

JMO

 

[sissi]

The most likely reason for the window to be broken was to STAGE a break-in by an intruder. I say this because there was also a blue suitcase under the window, as if to have something to step on, and this appears to be naive staging also.

An intruder, after being all over the house, wouldn't have used the basement window as the means to exit the house. He would have used one of the five doors on the first floor.

IMO the window was broken by a Ramsey to stage the entry point by an intruder. But It's hard to determine by whom and when. If staging, it was broken after JonBenet died but before the 911 call was made at 5:52 A.M., and could have been done by either Burke or by John.

A broken window in mid-winter in Colorado does not go unnoticed and unfixed. And LHP would have noticed the cold wind blowing in during her occasional trips to the downstairs laundry room, and at other times. She says she never noticed a broken window.

The Ramseys are probably lying about the window having been broken earlier in the year. The broken window appears more likely to be staging.

JMO

hmm..Maybe it wasn't , maybe it was fixed and this was a new break.

If it wasn't broken, then we have to consider a real breaking and entering, or as you suggest staging.
My sis has my JB books, as soon as I get my hands on them I will search around for answers to this. If there are answers??

hmm..while looking I found that the wine cellar door was unlatched when fleet took his first trip down..

The Whites arrived at defendant's home at approximately 6:00 a.m., and Mr. White, alone, searched the basement within fifteen minutes of arrival. (SMF 23; PSMF 23.) Mr. White testified that when he began his search, the lights were already on in the basement and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room was opened. (SMF 25; PSMF 25; White Dep. at 147, 151-52.) He further testified that a window in the basement playroom was broken. (SMF 26; PSMF 26; White Dep. at 28, 152

 

[BlueCrab]

..while looking I found that the wine cellar door was unlatched when fleet took his first trip down..

Sissi,

You're referring to the wrong door. The door that was open was the door that opens to a hallway that leads to the wine cellar door. The wine cellar door is at the far end of the hallway and was latched from the outside.

When you come to the bottom of the basement stairs, you have to turn right to enter the basement. A small powder room is on your left. In front of you is the door that opens into the hallway that leads past the boiler room and to the wine cellar door.

Incidentally, the rumors about the wine cellar door being hard to find are misleading. As soon as you reach the bottom of the basement stairs, from that point the white wine cellar door is facing you in plain view at the end of the hallway.

JMO

 

[sissi]

Sissi,

You're referring to the wrong door. The door that was open was the door that opens to a hallway that leads to the wine cellar door. The wine cellar door is at the far end of the hallway and was latched from the outside.

When you come to the bottom of the basement stairs, you have to turn right to enter the basement. A small powder room is on your left. In front of you is the door that opens into the hallway that leads past the boiler room and to the wine cellar door.

Incidentally, the rumors about the wine cellar door being hard to find are misleading. As soon as you reach the bottom of the basement stairs, from that point the white wine cellar door is facing you in plain view at the end of the hallway.

JMO

Thanks, yep I knew I had never heard this before, sorry, it was my way of reading "door that led to the wine cellar" ,I do agree that it was a door that led down a hall to another door that opened into the wine cellar.

"and the door in the hallway leading to the basement "wine cellar" room "

I have a tendency to remove words when looking for substance, I read it as door in hallway leading to room....sorry