The bear, the pineapple and the size 12 bloomies...
- Thread starter angelwngs
- Start date
Nuisanceposter
Remembering Little Miss Christmas
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Messages
- 1,399
- Reaction score
- 23
Princess all the way. They were Beauty and the Beast sheets.
ETA: I just checked my son's SpongeBob sheets, and they're 70/30 cotton/polyester blend. I would assume average cartoon character sheets are about the same.
ETA: I just checked my son's SpongeBob sheets, and they're 70/30 cotton/polyester blend. I would assume average cartoon character sheets are about the same.
Yes, I would assume they were a blend too.Just seem to remember them described as polyester but would think you are right regarding charecter sheets. If they were a blend the pee would have dried quickly. Wonder if the under stuff was dry, presumably there must have been a plastic matress protector.Nuisanceposter said:
angelwngs
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2004
- Messages
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- 482
We were doing the same thing at the same time........... I was checking labels on my sheets........LOLNuisanceposter said:
(No kiddie character sheets here though...My kids are grown. I never bought them character sheets even when they were little, instead I bought them the same type sheets that we slept on. I was just thinking how odd it was to me to buy different quality sheets for your child than for yourself...but the character sheet coming only in poly/cotton blend would explain the difference.)
Thanks for posting character sheet fabric info........
aussiesheila
Inactive
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2005
- Messages
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- 12
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your
18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;
19 correct?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
21 Q. She was six years old?
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
23 Q. What size underpants would you
24 normally buy for her?
25 A. 8 to 10.
0083
*1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it
*2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is
*3 wearing underpants designed for someone who
*4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,
*5 that those would not fit her?
*6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she
*7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit
*8 as well as a smaller pair.
*9 Q. And as a mother, you would know
10 that someone who is 85 pounds is
11 significantly larger than your little
12 six-year-old?
13 MR. WOOD: Can't we assume that
14 as a matter of 85 is more than 45 without
15 her having to document a mathematical fact,
16 Bruce?
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) 40 pounds is the
18 wrong size pair of underpants, would you
19 agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
*1 A. I am sure that I put the package
*2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
*3 them and put them on.
*4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
*5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
*6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
*7 you bought them in November?
*8 A. Right.
*9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
*1 A. Not specifically.
*2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
*3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
*4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
*5 I will give you a minute to think about it
*6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
*7 down a couple of months of casual
*8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
*9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.
0086
*1 I mean, if you have ever seen
*2 these little panties, there is not too much
*3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
*4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
*5 they were special because we got them up
*6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
*7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
*8 fine with me.
*9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?
0087
*1 A. Right.
*2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
*3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
*4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
*5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
*6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
*7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
*8 think I bought them with the intention of
*9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.
13 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time,
14 how old was Jenny?
15 A. I don't know. Probably -- I
16 don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but
17 I don't know exactly how old she was.
18 Q. Would these panties, size wise, be
19 more appropriate for -- is she an older
20 girl?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I assume a larger girl?
23 A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I
24 mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a
25 young woman, but then she was a little girl.
0088
*1 Q. How old is she now?
*2 A. She is now 15, I believe.
*3 Q. So she would have been about 12
*4 or somewhere --
*5 A. 11.
*6 Q. -- 11, 12?
*7 A. Yeah.
*8 Q. And based on the, I guess,
*9 dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about,
10 these would have been a size appropriate for
11 her?
12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
13 MR. WOOD: Do you know that?
14 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Based on your
15 knowledge of her? I mean, I never have seen
16 this girl, so --
17 MR. WOOD: Guys, I think -- if
18 you all have kids, I mean, I just think you
19 are making assumptions based on poundage,
20 apparently, that isn't necessarily, you know,
21 in touch with the realities with kids and
22 their clothes. But you know, if you know
23 that, Patsy, please tell them.
24 Why don't you go ahead and
25 restate your question.
0089
*1 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) You purchased
*2 these specifically for a person?
*3 A. Okay.
*4 MR. WOOD: Is that your
*5 recollection?
*6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
*7 MR. WOOD: Okay.
*8 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And I assume
*9 you wanted them to fit her and she be able
10 to wear them or there would be no sense in
11 purchasing them; right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. Would the size that has
14 been described here be appropriate for the
15 size of the girl you purchased them for?
16 A. I was guessing at her size, so I
17 had hoped that they would be.
18 Q. Now, we have talked -- you know,
19 the fact that a boy may wear boxer shorts
20 that go down to his ankles --
21 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
22 Q. --has nothing to do with girls,
23 when you purchase girl's panties; right?
24 MR. WOOD: Come on, Mitch.
25 Mitch --
0090
*1 THE WITNESS: I mean, if --
*2 MR. WOOD: Don't answer that.
*3 That's not a --
*4 MR. MORRISSEY: It is different.
*5 MR. WOOD: I made the statement
*6 because of my kids, but let me just tell
*7 you, my nine-year-old daughter likes to wear
*8 my XL T-shirts. I mean, you are asking now
*9 about the realm of kids, and I don't think
10 that is a factual question that she is
11 really here to give you information about.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Mrs. Ramsey, I
13 never purchased a pair of girl's panties.
14 Okay.
15 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) What do you
16 do, I mean, when you do that, what do you
17 think about as far as the person you're
18 purchasing them for?
19 A. Well, you just look, small,
20 medium, large, you know, and you pick the
21 one you think would most likely fit.
22 Q. And do they have age groups or
23 are they suggested for like a 10-year-old
24 through a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old
25 through a 15-year-old? Do they do it that
0091
*1 way too?
*2 A. I never paid any attention if
*3 they do.
*4 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.
*5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
*6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
*7 one set of Bloomi's?
*8 A. I can't remember.
*9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --
15 MR. WOOD: Because she remembers
16 it. I mean --
17 MR. KANE: Wait a second, Lin.
18 Would you please let her answer the question?
19 It is a simple question.
20 MR. WOOD: Why is it that you
21 remember something?
22 MR. KANE: Yes, why do you
23 remember --
24 MR. WOOD: Because she remembered.
25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) - that, that
0092
*1 detail?
*2 A. Well, for starters, it has been
*3 made such a big detail.
*4 Q. Okay, well, that is my question.
*5 A. I remember that I -- and I, you
*6 know, we were kind of shopping around, and
*7 it was close to Christmas season, so we
*8 might pick up a little souvenir. I
*9 bought -- I think I picked up a little
10 something for a baby-sitter, you know.
11 Q. Where was it that you became
12 aware that this was -- where was it that it
13 was made a big deal? What was the source
14 of your information that Bloomingdale's
15 panties somehow were significant that made
16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy
17 those?
18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise
19 recollection of that event occurring where
20 all of a sudden something happened and you
21 decided it was some big deal?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 mean, my first thought is something in the
24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything
25 wrong, so --
0093
*1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
*2 aware that these were the size of panties
*3 that she was wearing, and this has been
*4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
*5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
*6 that?
*7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
*8 Q. And how did you become aware of
*9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to
0094
*1 eight. There were probably some in there
*2 that were too small.
*3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
*4 A. Not typically, no.
*5 MR. KANE: Okay.
*6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
*7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
*8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
*9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Mrs. Ramsey,
22 have you ever seen a crime scene photo of
23 the underwear that your daughter was found
24 in?
25 A. No.
0095
*1 Q. Did Lou Schmidt ever show you a
*2 photo?
*3 A. No.
*4 Q. (By Mr. Kane) I want to follow
*5 up with something you said earlier. You
*6 said she would have just gone in and gotten
*7 a pair herself?
*8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
*9 Q. Okay. Was she -- did she usually
10 dress herself?
11 A. She was pretty much able to dress
12 herself.
18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;
19 correct?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
21 Q. She was six years old?
22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
23 Q. What size underpants would you
24 normally buy for her?
25 A. 8 to 10.
0083
*1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it
*2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is
*3 wearing underpants designed for someone who
*4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,
*5 that those would not fit her?
*6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she
*7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit
*8 as well as a smaller pair.
*9 Q. And as a mother, you would know
10 that someone who is 85 pounds is
11 significantly larger than your little
12 six-year-old?
13 MR. WOOD: Can't we assume that
14 as a matter of 85 is more than 45 without
15 her having to document a mathematical fact,
16 Bruce?
17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) 40 pounds is the
18 wrong size pair of underpants, would you
19 agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to
22 understand is whether -- we are trying to
23 understand why she is wearing such a large
24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can
25 help us if you have a recollection of it.
0084
*1 A. I am sure that I put the package
*2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened
*3 them and put them on.
*4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought
*5 these sometime in mid to early December, is
*6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,
*7 you bought them in November?
*8 A. Right.
*9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing
10 these? And I don't mean this specific day
11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you
12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in
13 this package of underpants and had been
14 wearing them since the trip to New York in
15 November?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the
18 laundry for the family, that is part of her
19 duties; is that correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash
22 clothes on occasion?
23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.
24 Q. Do you have any recollection of
25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?
0085
*1 A. Not specifically.
*2 Q. Was it something that, the fact
*3 that she is wearing these underpants designed
*4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and
*5 I will give you a minute to think about it
*6 because I know it is tough to try to pin
*7 down a couple of months of casual
*8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any
*9 conversations with her concerning the fact
10 that she is wearing underwear that is just
11 too large for her?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it
14 was, if it had caught your attention or came
15 to your attention, do you think you might
16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't
17 fit, put something on that fits, that is
18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,
19 had come to your attention --
20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the
21 package had been opened, we made the
22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and
23 use them because, you know, we weren't going
24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,
25 so.
0086
*1 I mean, if you have ever seen
*2 these little panties, there is not too much
*3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm
*4 sure even if they were a little bit big,
*5 they were special because we got them up
*6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they
*7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was
*8 fine with me.
*9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see
10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically
13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?
14 And I am not saying --
15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?
0087
*1 A. Right.
*2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm
*3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
*4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet
*5 express an interest in them; therefore, you
*6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
*7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I
*8 think I bought them with the intention of
*9 sending them in a package of Christmas things
10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that
11 together, so I just put them in her, her
12 panty drawer. So they were free game.
13 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time,
14 how old was Jenny?
15 A. I don't know. Probably -- I
16 don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but
17 I don't know exactly how old she was.
18 Q. Would these panties, size wise, be
19 more appropriate for -- is she an older
20 girl?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I assume a larger girl?
23 A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I
24 mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a
25 young woman, but then she was a little girl.
0088
*1 Q. How old is she now?
*2 A. She is now 15, I believe.
*3 Q. So she would have been about 12
*4 or somewhere --
*5 A. 11.
*6 Q. -- 11, 12?
*7 A. Yeah.
*8 Q. And based on the, I guess,
*9 dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about,
10 these would have been a size appropriate for
11 her?
12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
13 MR. WOOD: Do you know that?
14 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Based on your
15 knowledge of her? I mean, I never have seen
16 this girl, so --
17 MR. WOOD: Guys, I think -- if
18 you all have kids, I mean, I just think you
19 are making assumptions based on poundage,
20 apparently, that isn't necessarily, you know,
21 in touch with the realities with kids and
22 their clothes. But you know, if you know
23 that, Patsy, please tell them.
24 Why don't you go ahead and
25 restate your question.
0089
*1 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) You purchased
*2 these specifically for a person?
*3 A. Okay.
*4 MR. WOOD: Is that your
*5 recollection?
*6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
*7 MR. WOOD: Okay.
*8 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And I assume
*9 you wanted them to fit her and she be able
10 to wear them or there would be no sense in
11 purchasing them; right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. Would the size that has
14 been described here be appropriate for the
15 size of the girl you purchased them for?
16 A. I was guessing at her size, so I
17 had hoped that they would be.
18 Q. Now, we have talked -- you know,
19 the fact that a boy may wear boxer shorts
20 that go down to his ankles --
21 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
22 Q. --has nothing to do with girls,
23 when you purchase girl's panties; right?
24 MR. WOOD: Come on, Mitch.
25 Mitch --
0090
*1 THE WITNESS: I mean, if --
*2 MR. WOOD: Don't answer that.
*3 That's not a --
*4 MR. MORRISSEY: It is different.
*5 MR. WOOD: I made the statement
*6 because of my kids, but let me just tell
*7 you, my nine-year-old daughter likes to wear
*8 my XL T-shirts. I mean, you are asking now
*9 about the realm of kids, and I don't think
10 that is a factual question that she is
11 really here to give you information about.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Mrs. Ramsey, I
13 never purchased a pair of girl's panties.
14 Okay.
15 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) What do you
16 do, I mean, when you do that, what do you
17 think about as far as the person you're
18 purchasing them for?
19 A. Well, you just look, small,
20 medium, large, you know, and you pick the
21 one you think would most likely fit.
22 Q. And do they have age groups or
23 are they suggested for like a 10-year-old
24 through a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old
25 through a 15-year-old? Do they do it that
0091
*1 way too?
*2 A. I never paid any attention if
*3 they do.
*4 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.
*5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it
*6 this way. Did you say you bought more than
*7 one set of Bloomi's?
*8 A. I can't remember.
*9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Why is it that you remember
12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of
13 1996?
14 A. Because --
15 MR. WOOD: Because she remembers
16 it. I mean --
17 MR. KANE: Wait a second, Lin.
18 Would you please let her answer the question?
19 It is a simple question.
20 MR. WOOD: Why is it that you
21 remember something?
22 MR. KANE: Yes, why do you
23 remember --
24 MR. WOOD: Because she remembered.
25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) - that, that
0092
*1 detail?
*2 A. Well, for starters, it has been
*3 made such a big detail.
*4 Q. Okay, well, that is my question.
*5 A. I remember that I -- and I, you
*6 know, we were kind of shopping around, and
*7 it was close to Christmas season, so we
*8 might pick up a little souvenir. I
*9 bought -- I think I picked up a little
10 something for a baby-sitter, you know.
11 Q. Where was it that you became
12 aware that this was -- where was it that it
13 was made a big deal? What was the source
14 of your information that Bloomingdale's
15 panties somehow were significant that made
16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy
17 those?
18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise
19 recollection of that event occurring where
20 all of a sudden something happened and you
21 decided it was some big deal?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 mean, my first thought is something in the
24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything
25 wrong, so --
0093
*1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
*2 aware that these were the size of panties
*3 that she was wearing, and this has been
*4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
*5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
*6 that?
*7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
*8 Q. And how did you become aware of
*9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure.
11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?
22 Would that have been about the size pair of
23 panties that she wore when she was six years
24 old?
25 A. I would say more like six to
0094
*1 eight. There were probably some in there
*2 that were too small.
*3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
*4 A. Not typically, no.
*5 MR. KANE: Okay.
*6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
*7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
*8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
*9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Mrs. Ramsey,
22 have you ever seen a crime scene photo of
23 the underwear that your daughter was found
24 in?
25 A. No.
0095
*1 Q. Did Lou Schmidt ever show you a
*2 photo?
*3 A. No.
*4 Q. (By Mr. Kane) I want to follow
*5 up with something you said earlier. You
*6 said she would have just gone in and gotten
*7 a pair herself?
*8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
*9 Q. Okay. Was she -- did she usually
10 dress herself?
11 A. She was pretty much able to dress
12 herself.
Angelwings, You said it all... your words are the exact way that I feel about this horrible, senseless murder of this beautiful 6 year old little girl. Her poor distraught mother... I can not fathom a mother harming their flesh and blood, and I too know people that attempt to "sugar-coat" every event, good or bad, that happens in their lives. I believe in the innocence of Patsy Ramsey, and I pray her soul is now at peace, because the last 10 years of her life were nowhere near peaceful. Patsy was before the public eye with every statement,choice and decision she made for all to examine and plunder over. God bless her. And who of us knows how we would act, talk, choose, etc. or what we would say in such a situation, until we've walked in the shoes of one who is living with such a nightmare. Your post was wonderful, Angelwings. Today I've been a blubbering fool all day long, because this morning we had to have our beautiful 10 year old persian kitty put to sleep. it was terrible. My husband and I went out to dinner this evening and I thought I was "together", but out of the clear blue I started bawling again, and I know everyone in the restaurant thought I was nuts. I can't even imagine the mental state I would be in if one of my precious children died. Thank you for writing such eloquent words, Angelwings, and speaking for me also.angelwngs said:
angelwngs
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Thank you, AussieShelia. I had been acandyrose site but had not found the interview yet... After reading your post I realize that, I had already read this interview somewhere....
At acandyrose, I got into a thread about Dr. Henry Lee suggesting that the murder of JBR showed signs of possibly beginning as an 'accident'. I had always assumed that this idea had given way to the RDI theories...but... I have a new question.
Has it ever been questioned and discussed that JBR's head injury could have come from being dropped on her head?
If you consider that there was indeed an intruder trying to carry her down the stairs in the dark could the injury have come from banging her head into a wall or door frame as he carried her. (Or could it have come from being dropped on her head as he tried to put her out an open window in the basement? ) Either way, the garrote could have already been present to control her and in the end used to 'end her pain' since it was realized that she was dying anyway.
If there was no intruder could someone have accidently rammed her head into a wall or doorframe when taking her to bed or to the bathroom? (Lord knows, I remember doing this to my one of own children and awakening him as I carried him asleep from the car to bed. I thought I would die. Even though he never cried, just awakened and looked at me in shock, I felt like a horrible mother and worried if I had seriously hurt him.) If this was the case...why would a parent cover it up? And how could an accident such as this end with a garrote? I don't think this senerio is even a possibility. If there was no intruder it was a much darker event than beginning with a simple carless accident, IMO.
I remember that the fracture on the skull was 8. something inches...but where was the fracture located and did it go vertically or horozontally? I saw a sketch but I can't remember where. The autopsy report????
Thanks in advance for helping if you have any answers to these questions. (There isn't a question answer page for today...so I'm not sure where to post questions...)
At acandyrose, I got into a thread about Dr. Henry Lee suggesting that the murder of JBR showed signs of possibly beginning as an 'accident'. I had always assumed that this idea had given way to the RDI theories...but... I have a new question.
Has it ever been questioned and discussed that JBR's head injury could have come from being dropped on her head?
If you consider that there was indeed an intruder trying to carry her down the stairs in the dark could the injury have come from banging her head into a wall or door frame as he carried her. (Or could it have come from being dropped on her head as he tried to put her out an open window in the basement? ) Either way, the garrote could have already been present to control her and in the end used to 'end her pain' since it was realized that she was dying anyway.
If there was no intruder could someone have accidently rammed her head into a wall or doorframe when taking her to bed or to the bathroom? (Lord knows, I remember doing this to my one of own children and awakening him as I carried him asleep from the car to bed. I thought I would die. Even though he never cried, just awakened and looked at me in shock, I felt like a horrible mother and worried if I had seriously hurt him.) If this was the case...why would a parent cover it up? And how could an accident such as this end with a garrote? I don't think this senerio is even a possibility. If there was no intruder it was a much darker event than beginning with a simple carless accident, IMO.
I remember that the fracture on the skull was 8. something inches...but where was the fracture located and did it go vertically or horozontally? I saw a sketch but I can't remember where. The autopsy report????
Thanks in advance for helping if you have any answers to these questions. (There isn't a question answer page for today...so I'm not sure where to post questions...)
I don't think that type of damage could be done just by bumping the head while carrying a sleeping child, or even by dropping a child you were carrying.
And I for sure don't think it could be done without waking up the family.
And I for sure don't think it could be done without waking up the family.
openminded1
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When my daughter and I go shopping for bedding and such, she cares not what the sheets are made of. If they have Star Wars on them, they are going home with us.angelwngs said:
angelwngs
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If it was done in a basement which is three floors down from the master bedroom... and on a concrete wall or metal door frame it could have gone unheard and definately damaging enough. My husbands stepsister fell off a porch and landed a couple of feet down, on her head onto concrete and died from the head injury. The family inside did not hear her fall but found her several hours later....wenchie said:
If he had her at window level which would have been above his head, from the pictures, and she feel to the concrete floor below... i think it may have been severe enough of a blow to fracture her skull 8 point something inches...and to have been a potentially fatal blow had someone not finished the murder 1st with a garrote... See post from 2001 under thread Head Blow~
-Quote earlier post Under Thread named Head Blow dated 2001-
"JonBenet was struck hard on the side of her head. Dr. Meyer stated during the autopsy that her head injuries were consistent with a "blow to the head".
What position must JonBenet have been in to have recieved this blow to her head? To try and strike a blow on the side of the head to someone lying down would have been very awkward - like golfing. Not very likely at all. She must have been upright then.
Which means she had to have been STRUCK first - and then strangled.
Because she could not have been in an upright position to have that object swung to the side of her head - had she been strangled and unconscious/near death.
It makes no sense that someone struck her head when she was lying down.
And supposedly dead from being strangled."
~~~~... This type of injury above would be typical of someone quickly and carelessly carrying a child from point A to point B and ramming their head accidently into a doorjam (especially a concrete wall or metal framed doorjam typically used in basements)...would it not???
~~~~~Could it be plausable, that in transport, that JBR's head was accidently slammed into a doorframe or if she fell when the 'intruder' tried to stuff her out the high window which was above the murderers head, thus hitting her head on the concrete floor when she fell, the already present garrotte, which had been made originally as a means of control, may have been successfully used to finish off the 'accident'....~~~~~?????~~~~
I can't imagine an intruder thinking for even a second that he could somehow lift a child out that window and then get himself out that way - especially without waking the child up.
Notice how Lou Smitt shows us how he gets in through the window, but never how he would get out that way? It would be very difficult.
And why would he try to get Jonbenet out a basement window, when he didn't go out that way even when he left without her?
There would have been quite a mess by that window, as well as something more stable than a suitcase there to stand out. Remember the spiderweb?
I don't think I'll ever believe that an intruder entered the house that night. It just would have been impossible to not leave some evidence.
How did he wash and change her? He took the chance of running water in her bathroom and waking up a family member and being trapped in her room? He turned on the lights to find the clothes to change her into?
Notice how Lou Smitt shows us how he gets in through the window, but never how he would get out that way? It would be very difficult.
And why would he try to get Jonbenet out a basement window, when he didn't go out that way even when he left without her?
There would have been quite a mess by that window, as well as something more stable than a suitcase there to stand out. Remember the spiderweb?
I don't think I'll ever believe that an intruder entered the house that night. It just would have been impossible to not leave some evidence.
How did he wash and change her? He took the chance of running water in her bathroom and waking up a family member and being trapped in her room? He turned on the lights to find the clothes to change her into?
txsvicki
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After a horrible school teacher turned me into CPS over disagreeing about one of my grandkid's ADD medications, I can definitely see how Patsy wouldn't have wanted to answer any questions after she realized that she was a suspect. My traumatic experience made me become totally paranoid about answering any questions that any people ask me now and I will never forgive the system. Patsy didn't give good answers to questions, used words and themes that had to do with her daughters death, and went so far as to forgive the killer. If it had been any of us regular folks without money or lawyers, we would have lost our remaining child and went to jail right away.
Do you know where I can find the quote of Patsy forgiving the killer? That's a new one for me.
I know that her stepson said that at the very beginning, but I think that's because he knew that Patsy was the killer (and perhaps John even told his son that she was).
I know that her stepson said that at the very beginning, but I think that's because he knew that Patsy was the killer (and perhaps John even told his son that she was).
I understand what you are saying Wenchie. Could Karr have left something we do not know about. I heard last night that there were 800 things in the house logged as evidence. Is this true ? does any one know about these things?wenchie said:
Aw, gee, my head is swimming with ideas and I just want to know the truth!
aspidistra
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There are crime scene photos of a bathroom in the basement. So that would be a possibility.
hollyjokers
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I've not read or heard that any towels or wipes were found in the house with forensics, so if she were wiped down, what was she wiped down with & where did it go?
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~wenchie said:
Humm.... If it was an intruder...Maybe...
Maybe he didn't enter through the window and only TRIED to exit by trying to put her through it first and dropped her... Maybe he tried to get her through the window because he missed the laundry room upstairs... but knew there was one in the basement. Once down the 1st flight of stairs, he realizes she had soiled her clothes and he needed a change of clothes... He took her on to the basement so he didn't risk getting caught... found clothes in the laundryroom. In changing her his perversions got the best of him... and he acted...
I don't think she was asleep. Her mouth was duct taped. Her arms were tied. Maybe she was drugged with non-tracable drugs... Maybe not... Maybe she was kicking and screaming... and he just dropped her on the concrete floor or banged her head as she was fighting into the wall or doorframe...
Were all the door locks on the exterior doors deadbolts? Could an intruder have unlocked one from the inside, opened the door and turned the lock back to the locked position and exited? If it was not a dead bolt I don't see why he couldn't have exited and locked himself out...to cover his exit point.(This done after obtaining entry earlier in the day when they were unlocked.)
There was water in the basement laundry room. He could have used his shirt to wipe her. (You don't hear running water in our downstairs master bedroom when the bedrooms upstairs are using water. They are at the other end of the house and 1 story up. They are on a separate water pump too...)
As for changing her.....he could have grabbed the 1st clothes available...even from a laundry room... That would explain the size 12 undies.... Once in the basement... it was too risky to go back up and get a more proper size...or maybe they were already in the basement laundry and the only ones there... It wasn't used often, but was used for comforters and larger items by the maid. Maybe she did a load of bedsheets and JBR's comforter and her soiled clothes were the only clotes among them... Ouuuugh... That really does make sense!
I don't know... I'm just trying to look at all possibilities... This accidental head injury on a door frame or concrete wall in the basement is screaming at me that this is what happened.... Suddenly, JMK's words "It was an accident.... made sense with the injury to the skull being on the side of the skull and remembering hitting my sons head accidently as I carried him inside our home asleep.... Time hopefully will tell....