The carpet outside of the wine cellar with urine stains

[kanzz]

Or, maybe BR had already gotten the knife out of its hiding place before that night, already had it hidden in the basement, and used it to cut the cord - i.e. maybe BDI all, then PR came down later and staged with the wrist cords and mouth tape, then moved the body. Just maybe.

The knife had previously been placed "in a cupboard over the sink in that area outside of JonBenet's room", per LHP. It might or might not be relevant to the case. "Detective Kerry Yamaguchi discovered Burke's knife on a countertop near a sink just down a basement corridor from the small basement room where JonBenet's body was found."
"Hoffmann-Pugh said she didn't tell JonBenet's parents where she stowed Burke's knife."
So, maybe BR did find it some time prior?
source for quotes: http://www.denverpreps.com/extra/ramsey/0802rams1.shtml

“The cops’ first inkling of suspicion came in the morning after JonBenet’s body was found in the basement room when Burke was taken to a friend’s house without asking a single question about why all the police were in his house - or where his sister was.
“Two weeks later, Burke shocked a police psychologist by shouting: ‘I know what happened. She was killed. Someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement. . . took a knife out . . . hit her on the head.'
At that point, only the police knew that Burke’s Swiss Army knife had been found next to JonBenet’s body."
(Though I wouldn't call down the hall near a sink "next to JB's body".)
source: http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/ramseywinnypost.htm

My bet is that the knife was tested for both fingerprints and fibers. So surely the BPD and the GJ members know the answers. All in all, this is just more info that keeps me wanting to get inside the files of the GJ.

 

[Tortoise]

Didn't LHP, the former housekeeper, state that she took Burke's knife away from him and hid it? I read (somewhere on here) that he whittled so she took the knife away because of the mess he made inside the house. According to her, only she and Patsy knew where the knife was placed.

I've found the source (don't know if there are others) for this - it's in Linda Hoffman Pugh's 1st chapter of a book that I don't know if she ever published.

"You kept trying to make it an exotic crime scene, didn't you? You even taped your daughter's wrists and her mouth shut, cutting the tape with a small Swiss army knife that would later be found beside her body the next day. I remember that knife. Burke had walked around the house whittling with it a month before, and I told you I put it up at the top of the linen closet near JonBenet's bedroom when I confiscated it from him. Only you knew and John knew the exact location of that hideaway in the linen closet. "

http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurder.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/death-of-innocent.html

 

[UKGuy]

Burke didn't say what time he was downstairs. As I've said before, he doesn't even remember if he received a bike that Christmas. Him playing downstairs while everyone else was busy upstairs, with JonBenet, for half hour or an hour after they got home would take it to 11pm. The parents were still in their day wear when they got fibres on JonBenet, so it doesn't seem likely they were asleep or even in bed.

No one knows what happened later on or if Burke went to bed after his playtime, and then this happened. There is an estimated 2 hour time gap between JonBenet eating the pineapple and dying.

This is guesswork.

Tortoise,

Burke didn't say what time he was downstairs.

Oh yes he did. On Dr Phil he said: I remember being downstairs after everyone was in bed.

As I've said before, he doesn't even remember if he received a bike that Christmas.

What can we learn from that? Patsy and John regularly had memory loss.

Him playing downstairs while everyone else was busy upstairs, with JonBenet, for half hour or an hour after they got home would take it to 11pm. The parents were still in their day wear when they got fibres on JonBenet, so it doesn't seem likely they were asleep or even in bed.

All depends who you want to believe. BR is saying everyone was in bed when he snuck downstairs. So its likely that this statement is suspect.

No one knows what happened later on or if Burke went to bed after his playtime, and then this happened. There is an estimated 2 hour time gap between JonBenet eating the pineapple and dying.

This is guesswork.

Not quite. Its whats known as a How Possible Explanation as distinct from a How Actually Explanation.

BR's statement is consistent with the Ramsey's version of events. I guess it was JR that told Dr Phil that BR snuck back downstairs, i.e. BR told JR or JR told BR this is what to say?

So father and son have discussed this issue particularly over the flashlight which JR now says was in his hands that night.

Looks like the R's arrived home. JonBenet was prepared for bed. JonBenet and Burke had a snack of pineapple, then they likely went to bed, i.e. shared a bedroom, where there was an altercation of some kind. Minimally BR whacks JonBenet on the head?

if there were no acute sexual assault why would JonBenet need to be redressed in size-12's and Burke's long johns?

If there was only a head injury why did the parents not dial 911 for medical assistance, and say JonBenet fell down the stairs?

Coroner Meyer says there was Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration the latter is very specific, i.e. penetration was not by the paintbrush!

From the above it appears JonBenet was sexually assaulted, whacked on the head, redressed and ligature asphyxiated, all within a relatively short period of time?

.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise,

Oh yes he did. On Dr Phil he said: I remember being downstairs after everyone was in bed.

Sorry, this isn't making sense to me, what time was that then?

How can you judge anything from this? One person alone downstairs in a house does not know who is awake or asleep or in bed upstairs, unless they've visited all the rooms, doesn't know if all the other family members remained awake or asleep or in bed after that point in time, and unless he stayed up all night, there was a point at which he went to bed and as we don't know what time that was, we cannot know from his statement if he was awake or asleep when JonBenet died.

 

[UKGuy]

Sorry, this isn't making sense to me, what time was that then?

How can you judge anything from this? One person alone downstairs in a house does not know who is awake or asleep or in bed upstairs, unless they've visited all the rooms, doesn't know if all the other family members remained awake or asleep or in bed after that point in time, and unless he stayed up all night, there was a point at which he went to bed and as we don't know what time that was, we cannot know from his statement if he was awake or asleep when JonBenet died.

Tortoise,
I'm not saying I believe BR. Since his statement is consistent with JR's then you can assume the R's timeline to arrive at a decent estimate, i.e. JR said when they all went to bed.

One person alone downstairs in a house does not know who is awake or asleep or in bed upstairs, unless they've visited all the rooms, doesn't know if all the other family members remained awake or asleep or in bed after that point in time

BBM: by definition if they are alone downstairs then whether people are awake or asleep upstairs might not be as important as them simply being confined to their bedroom.

we cannot know from his statement if he was awake or asleep when JonBenet died.

Sure you can. If the case is BDI BR is wide awake when JonBenet dies. If the case is either JDI or PDI then we can assume BR is sound asleep when JonBenet dies?

The time is not that important since it is constrained by the approximate two-three hour interval from arriving home to JonBenet's death.

From the fiber evidence we can assume the R's version of events is false and that the children on arriving home went to do their own thing as did the parents, until they were forced together by JonBenet's death.


.

 

[singularity]

Burke didn't say what time he was downstairs. As I've said before, he doesn't even remember if he received a bike that Christmas. Him playing downstairs while everyone else was busy upstairs, with JonBenet, for half hour or an hour after they got home would take it to 11pm. The parents were still in their day wear when they got fibres on JonBenet, so it doesn't seem likely they were asleep or even in bed.

No one knows what happened later on or if Burke went to bed after his playtime, and then this happened. There is an estimated 2 hour time gap between JonBenet eating the pineapple and dying.

This is guesswork.

Absolutely. A child went downstairs at night after he thought his parents were asleep. Period. Just because a child goes downstairs to play with his presents or have a snack does not mean he went down there for hours on end.

The time is not that important....

I strongly disagree. The timing is everything and the timeline being so up in the air is one of the reasons this case is in such limbo.

From the fiber evidence we can assume the R's version of events is false....

I agree and from that fiber evidence we can also assume that both their hands were dirty that night.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

On watching a few clips of the Investigation Discovery doco that aired in Sept, I noticed what looks like a picture of the urine stains on the carpet. This is the first time I've seen this photo. Also interesting is that the two golf bags are right next to it and you can see a lego toy box partly in shot. What I am having difficulty with, however, is determining where exactly this shot was taken. I've looked at other basement shots and in a few it looked like some small paintings were stacked right next to the WC door with the paint tote in front of them. So maybe this is a different part of the hallway?

See how this compares with this crime scene photo, where John's golf club bag is in a totally different place, to the left of the picture. It's really confusing me.

 

[Tortoise]

On watching a few clips of the Investigation Discovery doco that aired in Sept, I noticed what looks like a picture of the urine stains on the carpet. This is the first time I've seen this photo. Also interesting is that the two golf bags are right next to it and you can see a lego toy box partly in shot. What I am having difficulty with, however, is determining where exactly this shot was taken. I've looked at other basement shots and in a few it looked like some small paintings were stacked right next to the WC door with the paint tote in front of them. So maybe this is a different part of the hallway?

See how this compares with this crime scene photo, where John's golf club bag is in a totally different place, to the left of the picture. It's really confusing me.

The last picture of your 3 is where the golf bags were originally. They've been moved to the spot where they are in Photo 1, which is where the paintings were stacked up next to the paint tote originally.

Photos 1 and 2 are just outside the wine cellar entrance.

 

[Occams Razor]

“Two weeks later, Burke shocked a police psychologist by shouting: ‘I know what happened. She was killed. Someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement. . . took a knife out . . . hit her on the head.'

Oh wow. That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. For some reason I'd never connected the knife statement to Burke's Swiss Army knife. In fact, I assumed the statement proved he DIDN'T know what happened to JBR because there was no knife involved. This changes things. :notgood:

 

[Ambitioned]

Yeah. An intruder would have known known about his knife.

 

[cee_]

Userid,
here you go:



http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com


.

so the broken end of paintbrush was found? Why is it presumed missing?

 

[Tortoise]

so the broken end of paintbrush was found? Why is it presumed missing?

One end was found, the end with the bristles.The other end has never been found.

 

[icedtea4me]

I've found the source (don't know if there are others) for this - it's in Linda Hoffman Pugh's 1st chapter of a book that I don't know if she ever published.

"You kept trying to make it an exotic crime scene, didn't you? You even taped your daughter's wrists and her mouth shut, cutting the tape with a small Swiss army knife that would later be found beside her body the next day. I remember that knife. Burke had walked around the house whittling with it a month before, and I told you I put it up at the top of the linen closet near JonBenet's bedroom when I confiscated it from him. Only you knew and John knew the exact location of that hideaway in the linen closet. "

http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurder.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/death-of-innocent.html

9 TOM HANEY: What were you doing with that
10 jump suit that morning?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: There were some spots on it,
12 and I was kind of looking at them thinking that when I
13 got back from the lake I would take it to the
14 dry-cleaner or whatever.
15 A kitchen knife.
16 TOM HANEY: What would that be doing there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
18 TOM HANEY: It does look like a kitchen
19 knife.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. I don't know what it
21 is doing there.
22 TOM HANEY: Do you recall yourself having
23 anything to do with that knife being there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Is it on something? Is
25 that --
0334
1 TOM HANEY: I think that is just a shadow,
2 but a reflection off the --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: There. There is a tiny
4 yellowish color there. Can you see that?
5 I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen
6 knives, to tell you the truth. That must be something.
7 TOM HANEY: We would have that.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that. In the
9 picture it looks like it is a very thin blade, like a
10 grapefruit knife or something.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

On the 2nd floor laundry area counter was a possible grapefruit knife which, Patsy called attention to, had something yellow (pineapple?) on it.

 

[Tortoise]

9 TOM HANEY: What were you doing with that
10 jump suit that morning?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: There were some spots on it,
12 and I was kind of looking at them thinking that when I
13 got back from the lake I would take it to the
14 dry-cleaner or whatever.
15 A kitchen knife.
16 TOM HANEY: What would that be doing there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
18 TOM HANEY: It does look like a kitchen
19 knife.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. I don't know what it
21 is doing there.
22 TOM HANEY: Do you recall yourself having
23 anything to do with that knife being there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Is it on something? Is
25 that --
0334
1 TOM HANEY: I think that is just a shadow,
2 but a reflection off the --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: There. There is a tiny
4 yellowish color there. Can you see that?
5 I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen
6 knives, to tell you the truth. That must be something.
7 TOM HANEY: We would have that.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that. In the
9 picture it looks like it is a very thin blade, like a
10 grapefruit knife or something.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

On the 2nd floor laundry area counter was a possible grapefruit knife which, Patsy called attention to, had something yellow (pineapple?) on it.

Or it could be a reflection from a light or flash bulb, on the blade, which is what I think Haney was going to say if he finished his sentence. I love the way she slips in "a kitchen knife" after she's just rambled on about the stains and the dry cleaners, as if she's burying it in her answer and hoping no one will ask her what it's doing upstairs. And then the best bit "I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen knives, to tell you the truth". Patsy wouldn't know the truth if it slapped her in the face.

I've been wondering why she invented that story about fussing over the jumpsuit in the laundry area that morning. Was it perhaps to have a reason for having the lights on so she could see the note as she went on down the spiral staircase? But then she would put the light on anyway if she was going down I would have thought. Or maybe it was so she could see into JonBenet's room, because there was no main light in there.

She could have had that light on for her original story where she checked JonBenet's room and saw her bed empty before finding the note. And then because she was locked into that story about putting the light on there to do something she had to keep it in her second fairy tale.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Didn't she change her story regarding the sequence of events? She told Officer French that she came downstairs, found the note and went running back up to check JBR's bedroom. Then later she said she checked JBR's bedroom before going downstairs to find the note.

Without looking through my notes I can't remember which way around it was but I know she told two different versions during that morning.

 

[Tortoise]

Didn't she change her story regarding the sequence of events? She told Officer French that she came downstairs, found the note and went running back up to check JBR's bedroom. Then later she said she checked JBR's bedroom before going downstairs to find the note.

Without looking through my notes I can't remember which way around it was but I know she told two different versions during that morning.

Yes, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Her original story was she checked JonBenet's room first.

 

[Tortoise]

So she changed her story from checking JonBenet's room, to checking JonBenet's jumpsuit for spots that needed cleaning.

 

[CorallaroC]

3 PATSY RAMSEY: There. There is a tiny
4 yellowish color there. Can you see that?
5 I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen
6 knives, to tell you the truth. That must be something.
7 TOM HANEY: We would have that.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that. In the
9 picture it looks like it is a very thin blade, like a
10 grapefruit knife or something.

The above dialog is very odd, to say the least! Wonder what Haney means when he says "we would have that" ?? Anyone want to venture a guess?

 

[Tortoise]

3 PATSY RAMSEY: There. There is a tiny
4 yellowish color there. Can you see that?
5 I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen
6 knives, to tell you the truth. That must be something.
7 TOM HANEY: We would have that.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that. In the
9 picture it looks like it is a very thin blade, like a
10 grapefruit knife or something.

The above dialog is very odd, to say the least! Wonder what Haney means when he says "we would have that" ?? Anyone want to venture a guess?

We would have that knife, taken it into evidence?

 

[CorallaroC]

good guess Tortoise - that makes sense. thanks