The carpet outside of the wine cellar with urine stains

[Userid]

Or it could be a reflection from a light or flash bulb, on the blade, which is what I think Haney was going to say if he finished his sentence. I love the way she slips in "a kitchen knife" after she's just rambled on about the stains and the dry cleaners, as if she's burying it in her answer and hoping no one will ask her what it's doing upstairs. And then the best bit "I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen knives, to tell you the truth". Patsy wouldn't know the truth if it slapped her in the face.

I've been wondering why she invented that story about fussing over the jumpsuit in the laundry area that morning. Was it perhaps to have a reason for having the lights on so she could see the note as she went on down the spiral staircase? But then she would put the light on anyway if she was going down I would have thought. Or maybe it was so she could see into JonBenet's room, because there was no main light in there.

She could have had that light on for her original story where she checked JonBenet's room and saw her bed empty before finding the note. And then because she was locked into that story about putting the light on there to do something she had to keep it in her second fairy tale.

Was it maybe because she knew the police knew that someone was in the area by the box of diapers, that were half-way pulled out from the shelf in the laundry area? Perhaps she was trying to explain that away..."why yes, I was in the area that morning, but I had a good reason as I was tending to ...."

 

[Userid]

Didn't she change her story regarding the sequence of events? She told Officer French that she came downstairs, found the note and went running back up to check JBR's bedroom. Then later she said she checked JBR's bedroom before going downstairs to find the note.

Without looking through my notes I can't remember which way around it was but I know she told two different versions during that morning.

I think you're right. I thought she said she walked past JBR's room, saw her door closed, and simply continued down the spiral case, assuming she was still asleep in her bedroom. Then she changed it when talking to police, saying she checked the room first -- before going back to her original story and finding the note first. At least, I think I'm remembering that right.

 

[Tortoise]

I think you're right. I thought she said she walked past JBR's room, saw her door closed, and simply continued down the spiral case, assuming she was still asleep in her bedroom. Then she changed it when talking to police, saying she checked the room first -- before going back to her original story and finding the note first. At least, I think I'm remembering that right.

If that is right, who did she give her story to before telling the police?

 

[Miz Adventure]

If that is right, who did she give her story to before telling the police?

She didn't. It was to the police officers that she gave her conflicting story. I think they were Officer French and Detective Arndt.

I'm going from memory. It's in ST's book and in other places. She may have even given two separate versions to the same officer.

I'll look it up and report back.

 

[Userid]

If that is right, who did she give her story to before telling the police?

She gave both versions that very day the police arrived -- I want to say both were given before the body was found. I don't know if she gave one version to one cop and the other to another, or both to one cop, but from what I recall, she gave differing accounts after she made the call to police to an officer(s) on the scene.

 

[icedtea4me]

Or it could be a reflection from a light or flash bulb, on the blade, which is what I think Haney was going to say if he finished his sentence.*snip*

Patsy didn't mention the yellow color until after that.

 

[Tortoise]

Patsy didn't mention the yellow color until after that.

And she had already asked if it was on something, so he guessed what she was referring to already.

 

[SandyQLS]

From the photo posted in a different thread recently, by otg, (sorry I can't remember which thread) it looks as if the paint tote may have been placed directly on top of the urine stain. As far as the missing end of the paintbrush goes, I don't know how long it would have been but a short piece, or even if it was cut into smaller pieces, could have been washed down a plughole.

Is the photo I have attached the one Tortoise meant, showing the paint tote in the basement outside the WC door on top of the urine stain? I would really like to nail this down exactly where that urine stain is located. It seems that the stain is immediately outside the WC door to the photo left. It also looks like there is a main wet area and then a smear that heads to the WC, like something wet was dragged? General question to anyone who knows. ........................ Please refer back to Tortoises's post quoting ZoriahNZ's post in this thread (page 2 #27) for the other 3 photos showing the paintings, carpet stain and golf bags here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lar-with-urine-stains&p=12954202#post12954202

 

[Kbe78]

The app z


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[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Looking at that paint tray really bothers me. Thinking that Patsy used those paintbrushes several times for her paintings and then she used the same paintbrush for stranguling/ staging gives me the creeps and to top it all of it's known that she painted an oil painting of the kids after JB's death.. One thinks a mother would never want to see a paintbrush let alone use it which kind of makes me think that JR likely was the one breaking P's paintbrush that night.
jmo

 

[otg]

Is the photo I have attached the one Tortoise meant, showing the paint tote in the basement outside the WC door on top of the urine stain? I would really like to nail this down exactly where that urine stain is located. It seems that the stain is immediately outside the WC door to the photo left. It also looks like there is a main wet area and then a smear that heads to the WC, like something wet was dragged? General question to anyone who knows. ........................ Please refer back to Tortoises's post quoting ZoriahNZ's post in this thread (page 2 #27) for the other 3 photos showing the paintings, carpet stain and golf bags here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lar-with-urine-stains&p=12954202#post12954202

Sandie, there is an excellent thread over at FFJ where this was all discussed. If you (or anyone) care(s) to read it, it begins at the following link where our very own questfortrue brought it up:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...basement-train-room-video&p=197194#post197194

If you follow it from quest’s post through to the end, I think it’ll help clear up some of what we see in the CS photos.

 

[icedtea4me]

Looking at that paint tray really bothers me. Thinking that Patsy used those paintbrushes several times for her paintings and then she used the same paintbrush for stranguling/ staging gives me the creeps and to top it all of it's known that she painted an oil painting of the kids after JB's death.. One thinks a mother would never want to see a paintbrush let alone use it which kind of makes me think that JR likely was the one breaking P's paintbrush that night.
jmo

*snip*[FONT=&quot]When the image of Ramsey’s artwork appeared in The Post, a reader recognized it as strikingly similar to one called “Pals” from the collection of artist Betty Morris Hamilton of Guntersville, Ala.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Side by side, the resemblance is unmistakable. Ramsey’s colors, though more intense, are much the same as those in Hamilton’s original. The position of the arms, the streaks in the hair, the shades on the sand all look like Hamilton’s work.*snip*

http://www.denverpost.com/2006/07/17/beach-painting-by-patsy-ramsey-adds-another-layer-of-mystery/

[/FONT]

 

[Ambitioned]

Nice find.

So she was a plagiarist. Makes sense. Even the RN sounds ripped off.

Here's the "Pals" by Hamilton.

 

[SandyQLS]

Sandie, there is an excellent thread over at FFJ where this was all discussed. If you (or anyone) care(s) to read it, it begins at the following link where our very own questfortrue brought it up: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...basement-train-room-video&p=197194#post197194 If you follow it from quest’s post through to the end, I think it’ll help clear up some of what we see in the CS photos.

Thanks, otg. I read your suggested FFJ link, very interesting. We are all pretty familiar with luminol use, and I could not locate anything about a substance to find "urine in carpet" in that same way that would glow red as shown in those unnumbered tabloid photos, although of course the lab could determine it from a sample of the carpet, and they coudl extract DNA for a source. Perhaps the carpet under the white paint tote was wet and smelled of urine? While vilifying SB/jameson in his book IRMI, Thomas also acknowledged that she seemed to have some inside information which he suspected came from the DA's office. Back in 2010, cynic researched this topic and discovered that SB/jameson is the ONLY source for "urine stain on carpet outside WC" in a couple of great posts:

Regarding the urine stain(s) outside the WC; everyone should keep in mind that the only “source” for this is Jameson.

I can tell you that it is not mentioned in Perfect Murder Perfect Town, JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, or Death of Innocence.

It is not in the Bonita Papers or the LHP account.
It is not in any publically available deposition.
It is not in any LE interview with JR or PR.
It is not on the ACR site.

Jameson is credited as the source: Evidence About Where JBR Was Killed •The Basement. The conventional wisdom is that JBR was killed somewhere in the basement. Internet poster Jameson has recently summarized the conventional wisdom:
1.Wine Cellar Room Ruled Out. The mold and dirt on the floor of the wine cellar room shows too few footprints for there to have been a scuffle in there.

2.Hallway Outside Wine Cellar Room. There was a urine stain on the floor immediately outside that room, and a few feet away was the paint tote containing the remaining piece of the paintbrush used for a garrote; small bits of paintbrush handle also were found at the same location, suggesting this is where the garrotte was made. Jameson asserts "most investigators" believe this is the area in which she was killed. http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682481/Interpreting-the-Evidence

We know her body was found in the windowless room. The mold and dirt on the floor make it clear there was no scuffle in there, a few very clear footprints, not a lot. A few feet away, in the hallway, we have the source of the paintbrush handle that was used in the garotte. The small bits of paintbrush found there seem to indicate that is where the brush was broken - and that it possible the garrote was made there. Couple that with the urine that was found there - and most investigators believe THAT is where JonBenet was killed. - jameson http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID77/13.html

There was a urine stain in the hall outside the windowless room. That is where the garotte was made, that is where she was choked and as she struggled, she wet herself. I have spent a lot of time in that area - and there is nothing there that anyone could "suspend" a child from. It is a suspended ceiling. - jameson http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID72/399.html

Jams was the first person I remember mentioning the urine stain outside the cellar door. I always kept a grain of salt handy for that, but then I believe I heard Smit or Schiller or someone in a documentary say the same thing. If it's not true, I have no way of disproving it. With other evidence we have many sources for in that area, it seems logical, so I have had no reason to question it. Are we all being misled? We've had misinformation we've believed for years finally corrected, so it's possible. But we do have solid sources about the stains on the front of JB's pants, so she was on her stomach when she died. What I postulated about the sequence of events by the paint tray is supported by the evidence, I believe. So again, the "stain" in the basement outside the cellar, by the paint tray, appears to be correctly reported as urine from JonBenet. I guess you'll have to make up your mind what you believe. -KoldKase http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7760&pp=12&page=23

The only other “source” I can find is “Red Herring,” but it is unclear as to who his/her source is. In the layout of the basement notice the reference to “stains.” http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html

It may well be true and may have originated from a news account that is no longer available, if anyone happens to remember, please share.

I guess we have no new information or confirmation then and the stain remains a mystery after 20 years.

 

[DeDee]

Thanks, otg. I read your suggested FFJ link, very interesting. We are all pretty familiar with luminol use, and I could not locate anything about a substance to find "urine in carpet" in that same way that would glow red as shown in those unnumbered tabloid photos, although of course the lab could determine it from a sample of the carpet, and they coudl extract DNA for a source. Perhaps the carpet under the white paint tote was wet and smelled of urine? While vilifying SB/jameson in his book IRMI, Thomas also acknowledged that she seemed to have some inside information which he suspected came from the DA's office. Back in 2010, cynic researched this topic and discovered that SB/jameson is the ONLY source for "urine stain on carpet outside WC" in a couple of great posts:

I guess we have no new information or confirmation then and the stain remains a mystery after 20 years.

If we use the CS photos to assist, then we can determine where carpet was removed from the R home but not verify it was urine stained.

I have seen an image of a large square removed from outside of the WC so I would lean toward it being a spot of urine. There is carpet taken by CSI from the basement bathroom. There are multiple squares of carpet removed from JBRs bedroom close to her bed.

 

[Userid]

Wow, even the aftermath was staged, as this painting would indicate. Unbelievable.

 

[otg]

Thanks, otg. I read your suggested FFJ link, very interesting. We are all pretty familiar with luminol use, and I could not locate anything about a substance to find "urine in carpet" in that same way that would glow red as shown in those unnumbered tabloid photos, although of course the lab could determine it from a sample of the carpet, and they coudl extract DNA for a source. Perhaps the carpet under the white paint tote was wet and smelled of urine? While vilifying SB/jameson in his book IRMI, Thomas also acknowledged that she seemed to have some inside information which he suspected came from the DA's office. Back in 2010, cynic researched this topic and discovered that SB/jameson is the ONLY source for "urine stain on carpet outside WC" in a couple of great posts:

I guess we have no new information or confirmation then and the stain remains a mystery after 20 years.

I don’t remember where, but when I first posted the photo showing the red-stained area I noted that I couldn’t verify its authenticity considering that it came from one of the tabloids. I don’t know if they photoshopped it to indicate what they were told about the urine found on the carpet, or if it was an actual CSI photo showing the results of forensic testing. Jammie was indeed the first person who raised the issue, so for years there was always doubt about its credibility. I wouldn’t even consider contradicting something Cynic cites from his research, but the post you cited was based on what was known in 2010. My memory fails me on when and where, but sometime after that the existence of a urine stain was confirmed from a more reliable source than Lou Smit’s toadie. It was also confirmed by James Kolar in his AMA (I’ll give you the quote below).

As for the red color shown in the questioned photo, I can’t say with certainty what tests were or were not done by investigators. We all know that luminol is used for detecting residual blood. But because of its process, it wouldn’t show urine. It is also something that only shows the presence of blood under fluorescent light sources, which the questioned photo was obviously not taken with. That’s the main reason I doubted the validity of this photo when I posted it.

However since you want more information, I did a little more research.

Nothing detects “urine” -- just like luminol doesn’t really detect “blood.” Each of the tests detects elements found within the fluids. Luminol reacts with the iron in hemoglobin causing it to fluoresce. Besides luminol, fluorescein is also used to locate possible blood; and DMAC (dimethylacetamide) and picric acid are use to located possible urine. Tests for urine look to identify urea and/or creatinine within the urine. From the book Forensic Science (link below):

Creatinine is detected by applying a saturated solution of picric acid in toluene or benzene to a stain extract. It combines to form creatinine picrate, an easily detectable colored product.
​

From Reactions of Creatinine with Alkaline Picrate:

...addition of 2 to 3 moles of alkaline picrate per mole of creatinine in aqueous solution resulted in the formation of a red compound. Color development, as in the Jaffe reaction, was essentially complete within 10 minutes at room temperature. The colored compound could be removed from solution by pouring the mixture into ethyl alcohol. Addition of acid to the precipitate permitted quantitative recovery of unchanged picric acid. If the aqueous mixture of creatinine and picrate stood for 30 or more minutes, some fading was noted, and subsequent recovery of picric acid was no longer quantitative.
​

Again, I still don’t know what tests were done in the basement by investigators, and I don’t know how accurate the questioned photo was. But apparently there are tests for urine that would show up as red. It seems like I’ve seen a photo of the WC entrance after the carpet had been removed, but I can’t locate it now.

Here is what James Kolar said in his AMA when asked about where the events occurred (emphasis mine):

Obviously, there is speculation as to where in the home that blow was rendered. No one, except for the person who struck her, knows for certain. I have my own theory, based upon the nexus of evidence present in the case, but as indicated previously, can’t expound upon that at the moment.

I believe the commonly held theory, based upon the sequencing of injuries, is that the garroting and the location of her death was on the small piece of carpet located outside the wine cellar door. Her bladder let go upon death, accounting for the urine stains in the front of her clothing and carpet. The rear application of the garrote is confirming evidence of her being on her stomach during this act.
​

(Kolar may have also been asked about this in one of his interviews with Tricia. I’m not sure.)



:findinglink:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/luminol.htm/printable
https://books.google.com/books?id=K...ad=0#v=onepage&q=urine identification&f=false (Begins on Page 272)
[FONT=&amp]http://www.jbc.org/content/237/2/612.full.pdf[/FONT]

 

[Tadpole12]

Luminol reacts with fecal matter, causing the same glow as if it were blood.

 

[BoldBear]

Luminol reacts with fecal matter, causing the same glow as if it were blood.

I wonder if that's how they found it on the box of chocolates. I always thought the fecal material was visible. It may not have been immediately visible?

 

[UKGuy]

I don’t remember where, but when I first posted the photo showing the red-stained area I noted that I couldn’t verify its authenticity considering that it came from one of the tabloids. I don’t know if they photoshopped it to indicate what they were told about the urine found on the carpet, or if it was an actual CSI photo showing the results of forensic testing. Jammie was indeed the first person who raised the issue, so for years there was always doubt about its credibility. I wouldn’t even consider contradicting something Cynic cites from his research, but the post you cited was based on what was known in 2010. My memory fails me on when and where, but sometime after that the existence of a urine stain was confirmed from a more reliable source than Lou Smit’s toadie. It was also confirmed by James Kolar in his AMA (I’ll give you the quote below).

As for the red color shown in the questioned photo, I can’t say with certainty what tests were or were not done by investigators. We all know that luminol is used for detecting residual blood. But because of its process, it wouldn’t show urine. It is also something that only shows the presence of blood under fluorescent light sources, which the questioned photo was obviously not taken with. That’s the main reason I doubted the validity of this photo when I posted it.

However since you want more information, I did a little more research.

Nothing detects “urine” -- just like luminol doesn’t really detect “blood.” Each of the tests detects elements found within the fluids. Luminol reacts with the iron in hemoglobin causing it to fluoresce. Besides luminol, fluorescein is also used to locate possible blood; and DMAC (dimethylacetamide) and picric acid are use to located possible urine. Tests for urine look to identify urea and/or creatinine within the urine. From the book Forensic Science (link below):

Creatinine is detected by applying a saturated solution of picric acid in toluene or benzene to a stain extract. It combines to form creatinine picrate, an easily detectable colored product.
​

From Reactions of Creatinine with Alkaline Picrate:

...addition of 2 to 3 moles of alkaline picrate per mole of creatinine in aqueous solution resulted in the formation of a red compound. Color development, as in the Jaffe reaction, was essentially complete within 10 minutes at room temperature. The colored compound could be removed from solution by pouring the mixture into ethyl alcohol. Addition of acid to the precipitate permitted quantitative recovery of unchanged picric acid. If the aqueous mixture of creatinine and picrate stood for 30 or more minutes, some fading was noted, and subsequent recovery of picric acid was no longer quantitative.
​

Again, I still don’t know what tests were done in the basement by investigators, and I don’t know how accurate the questioned photo was. But apparently there are tests for urine that would show up as red. It seems like I’ve seen a photo of the WC entrance after the carpet had been removed, but I can’t locate it now.

Here is what James Kolar said in his AMA when asked about where the events occurred (emphasis mine):

Obviously, there is speculation as to where in the home that blow was rendered. No one, except for the person who struck her, knows for certain. I have my own theory, based upon the nexus of evidence present in the case, but as indicated previously, can’t expound upon that at the moment.

I believe the commonly held theory, based upon the sequencing of injuries, is that the garroting and the location of her death was on the small piece of carpet located outside the wine cellar door. Her bladder let go upon death, accounting for the urine stains in the front of her clothing and carpet. The rear application of the garrote is confirming evidence of her being on her stomach during this act.
​

(Kolar may have also been asked about this in one of his interviews with Tricia. I’m not sure.)



:findinglink:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/luminol.htm/printable
https://books.google.com/books?id=K...ad=0#v=onepage&q=urine identification&f=false (Begins on Page 272)
[FONT=&amp]http://www.jbc.org/content/237/2/612.full.pdf[/FONT]

otg,

(Kolar may have also been asked about this in one of his interviews with Tricia. I’m not sure.)

In one of his Interviews with Tricia Kolar says, paraphrasing: JonBenet was whacked in the breakfast bar and take down to the basement. When asked to expand he cites litigation issues as to why he cannot expand any further.

The points of interest are, if Kolar thinks it began in the breakfast bar, why are they removing squares of carpet from JonBenet's bedroom, and if JonBenet was killed just outside the wine-cellar door where she voided her bladder, potentially staining the carpet, hence another square of carpet removed, does this suggest the use of the white blanket was a last minute decision?


I'm guessing the carpet samples have been taken in case there are any semen deposits therein, or blood drops from JonBenet? The latter might show JonBenet was in her bedroom but was relocated to the basement, as per the IDI?

Also how much prepubescent was Burke Ramsey, was he capable of producing seminal fluid as distinct from spermatozoa?

Would we be told if any was found, how would it be categorized, e.g. touch-dna?

I'm not saying it never happened but Kolar's breakfast bar scenario does not do it for me. Why is anyone assaulting JonBenet in a semi public setting when there are bedrooms available?

Seems as if Kolar is confirming that a patch of carpet from the basement was tested for urine and yielded a positive. Hence his assumption JonBenet was killed there, IMO: asphyxiated by Patsy?

Maybe its the bedroom results that he cannot reveal as they possibly suggest BR or/and JonBenet were present in her bedroom?

Consider his remarks about the fecally soiled pajama bottoms which he thinks belonged to BR.

The upshot being scary stuff was going on in JonBenet's bedroom including the possibility that BR had defecated and then indulged in some kind of smearing ritual, territory marking?

If BPD have forensic samples of the fecal deposits they can analyze them and compare with BR's DNA?

I think it was Holly Smith,head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse Team, who said there were fecal deposits present on a candy box in JonBenet's bedroom.

Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse Team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR’s panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: “There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay,” explains Smith….While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions.”

Is it coincidence that she had the Ramsey section of her autobiography redacted and Kolar is silent on any possible CSI results from JonBenet's bedroom, mmm?


.