The case for murder, #2

[*Lash*]

Carioca, do you have a decent picture of any part of the whicker chair? TIA

 

[Nom de plume]

=============================================== Gore said SCIENCE solved this case over 2 years ago.....selective SCIENCE we're finding out. Please enlighten me... how does blood on the shower tub floor determined to be menstrual by good investigative work vs a BLOOD TEST? Also, there's a reason professional LE departments use a assault/rape kit vs just taking swabs. Geez.... a junior Ranger would have enough sense to make sure the rape kit test was used given the signs - a young attractive woman found NUDE -BOUND -GAGGED with
numerous abrasions on her back,cut fingers/hand and blood on her body.

Zahau lawyers will have a FIELD DAY with this pompous ex FBI yahoo on the stand that even his ex FBI wife couldn't help him. I have come to believe we are a safer nation knowing that William and Natalie Gore are no longer employed by the FBI.

What do you want to bet that those swabs have been lost or destroyed? It would be too sweet if the Z family could get them and have them tested. Oh the story I bet they'd tell...

I've never believed for a NY second that she got out of the shower, failed to use a tampon, traipsed around naked dripping blood everywhere. :facepalm: She was naked for a reason, and it wasn't by her own choice IMO! The sexual overtones in this murder are HUGE RED FLAGS!! SDSO wasn't incompetent in this case, they were downright corrupt!!! :moo:

 

[Carioca]

Carioca, do you have a decent picture of any part of the whicker chair? TIA

Here are a few pics, Lash:
1) from the crime scene
2) similar chair in hanging room from Architectural series pre-Shacknai
3) similar chairs in front middle bedroom w/ bed from ditto source
4) a chair I found on a vintage furniture site that looks like the same design

I've had chairs like this and the paint ended up flaking off like you mentioned. Little bits that would get stuck on pants, bare legs and arms..

In image 4 I've circled 2 areas that "could" have caused the deep indentation and also the parallel markings on RZ's legs. I question once again how long an indentation created prior to death would remain so vividly visible post mortem.

 

[Betty P]

Here are a few pics, Lash:
1) from the crime scene
2) similar chair in hanging room from Architectural series pre-Shacknai
3) similar chairs in front middle bedroom w/ bed from ditto source
4) a chair I found on a vintage furniture site that looks like the same design

I've had chairs like this and the paint ended up flaking off like you mentioned. Little bits that would get stuck on pants, bare legs and arms..

In image 4 I've circled 2 areas that "could" have caused the deep indentation and also the parallel markings on RZ's legs. I question once again how long an indentation created prior to death would remain so vividly visible post mortem.

Thanks for the photos Carioca. I was wondering, if this was a chair from the other bedroom, what happened to the seat cushion? If, as is alleged, the death room was used as a computer room, why would it have a chair with no seat cushion? Those wicker chairs, while pretty, are not comfortable to sit in for an extended period of time without a cushion, especially if you're wearing shorts. Was the cushion tossed aside in haste and if so, where? Should that have been noted during the search of the crime scene? I suppose, along with the red comforter no one can account for, we'll never know.

 

[Serpico]

I wonder if Natalie Gore asked her husband," honey, did you ever TEST the orange/red towing rope to see if there was any evidence of "water" evidence on where it may have been used / docked before." Hubby Bill may have responded," no, I'm sure we took swabs of the rope and our great investigative team would've mentioned if something was discovered."

There was no definitive explanation where this orange/red towing rope came from and there wasn't a new wrapper that contained this rope mentioned from what I've read so if am I correct.....this was a USED towing rope? Maybe the water components in Coronado are different than Memphis or AZ......

 

[STS-135]

Here are a few pics, Lash:
1) from the crime scene
2) similar chair in hanging room from Architectural series pre-Shacknai
3) similar chairs in front middle bedroom w/ bed from ditto source
4) a chair I found on a vintage furniture site that looks like the same design

I've had chairs like this and the paint ended up flaking off like you mentioned. Little bits that would get stuck on pants, bare legs and arms..

In image 4 I've circled 2 areas that "could" have caused the deep indentation and also the parallel markings on RZ's legs. I question once again how long an indentation created prior to death would remain so vividly visible post mortem.

Thank you Carioca and *Lash* for the photos. I'll take a closer look in the morning. For now, why would the impressions have necessarily been made prior to death? What if she died on her back or her side while tied to the chair?

 

[STS-135]

Here are a few pics, Lash:
1) from the crime scene
2) similar chair in hanging room from Architectural series pre-Shacknai
3) similar chairs in front middle bedroom w/ bed from ditto source
4) a chair I found on a vintage furniture site that looks like the same design

I've had chairs like this and the paint ended up flaking off like you mentioned. Little bits that would get stuck on pants, bare legs and arms..

In image 4 I've circled 2 areas that "could" have caused the deep indentation and also the parallel markings on RZ's legs. I question once again how long an indentation created prior to death would remain so vividly visible post mortem.

BTW, I may now know why I was finding it so hard to believe that it was actually a comforter. If you take this photo of the overturned chair and place it next to the photo where only a small portion of the chair and the alleged comforter are visible, that would've had to be one tiny comforter. And isn't that a corner of the actual comforter visible still on the bed near the bed post? So what is that on the chair? It might help us figure out if we are in fact looking at a flowery pattern embedded in the fabric or something else? Thanks!

 

[K_Z]

In image 4 I've circled 2 areas that "could" have caused the deep indentation and also the parallel markings on RZ's legs. I question once again how long an indentation created prior to death would remain so vividly visible post mortem.

BBM, and snipped for relevance.

Part of what causes resolution of temporary skin creases and indentations is blood circulation. (ie, the person is alive.)

Skin indentations resolve more quickly in younger (living) people, and they persist longer in older people (young = more collagen and elastin = faster resolution, compared to elderly people). A lot of things contribute to how fast things like "sheet sleep wrinkles" resolve, including the area of skin (more fragile vs thicker and more durable skin, amount of subQ fat, etc.)

I don't know with certainty, but it seems logical that an indentation that was present at the time of death may possibly remain visible until skin slippage or bloating occurs during decomposition, due to the absence of circulation. That's my best guess.

Extrapolating that to the possible embossed marks on Rebecca, I'd have to say they were present at time of death, and persisted until the pics were taken due to absence of circulation. And decomp was not advanced enough to obliterate the marks. My best guess.

Of interest.....
Skin embossing (or, "skinbossing") apparently was a fashion trend for a while. Temporary body art/ temporary body mod.

http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/skin-emboss-chair-tattoo

 

[K_Z]

Thank you Carioca and *Lash* for the photos. I'll take a closer look in the morning. For now, why would the impressions have necessarily been made prior to death? What if she died on her back or her side while tied to the chair?

BBM.

The autopsy report indicates a pattern of hemorrhages in both of the severely torn SCM muscles, and torn infrahyoid (strap) muscles of the neck. This indicates a beating heart at the time the muscles were torn. The muscle tearing was quite severe and extreme, much more so than what would happen with garroting or suffocation.

It's my belief that Rebecca's heart was beating when she sustained the muscle tearing. Everything I have learned about the forces necessary to cause this type of tearing indicates to me that it occurred during the "long drop". I believe she may have been stunned, semi conscious, or unconscious when she went over the railing, but definitely alive, with a beating heart.

I personally don't think there is enough evidence to support that she was tossed over after she was dead, or that she was suspended from below once she was dead-- both of which are popular theories.

 

[STS-135]

BBM Thanks, STS-135. Apologies. I need to make a correction on space between the ankles (I incorrectly stated 1/2 inch). According to RZ AR page 11, "the ankles can be separated a maximum of 2 inches at the narrowest point."

Nonetheless, even with a maximum of 2 inch separation, it does not explain the indentations that appear well beyond that scope.

No worries. My apologies too, for not catching it. However, in this case, even a 2 inch linear separation is simply not enough to allow the binding to slip so far up from the narrower part of her legs near her ankles to the broader part of her legs near the calf area. The binding would've had to be quite loose for that to be possible; and that doesn't appear to be the case - at least as far as one can tell from the photo. I'll have to review what else the AR says in respect to the looseness/tightness of the binding on her legs.

Good night, Salem!

 

[Carioca]

Thank you Carioca and *Lash* for the photos. I'll take a closer look in the morning. For now, why would the impressions have necessarily been made prior to death? What if she died on her back or her side while tied to the chair?

Exactly the point, STS! If she died while tied to the chair, then her body left in that position for an hour or so while the killers decided what to do, then those marks would remain post mortem (I think). Although considering the many similarities between Max's accident scenario and Rebecca's hanging, it leads me to believe her hanging was well planned. ME Lucas stated she was alive when she was hanged, FWTW.

----------------

Sorry - I commented before reading K_Z's 2 previous posts about skin indentations and also heart beating when hanged. Thanks K_Z for excellent input (as always) and addressing these questions.

 

[kittychi]

<snipped>
ME Lucas stated she was alive when she was hanged, FWTW.

This has to be the only "evidence" used to determine suicide. Everything else that points to murder was explained away, IMO (or never explained!).

:notgood:

 

[Serpico]

I've re-read brash ME Lucas AR about a half dozen times this month for various reasons and yesterday trying to understand WHAT ELSE Lucas was either downplaying in his Report or just glossed over I stumbled upon an educational website = ORACLE EDUCATION - THINK QUEST. I'll just post and see what others have to say when compared to Lucas AR and Dr.Cyril Wecht's comments.
-----------------------------------
Hanged Victims
A body discovered hanging or suspended in some way, usually contains telltale signs of a death due to lack of oxygen. There includes such signs as blue skin colour, burst blood vessels in the eyes and inflated lungs.Forensic pathologists examine the rope marks on the
neck to determine if they contain evidently inflamed edges, a sign that the victim was ALIVE before being hanged. However, when no inflammation marks are present, it suggests the victim was DEAD before being hanged and the HANGING was some form of a COVER UP . The rope marks on the victim's neck are examined to check that they match the rope found at the scene of the crime.
The slightest difference of the rope impression from the actual rope itself, would undoubtedly imply that the rope was not the murder tool and where the victim did die of a lack of oxygen and does have evident bruises on the neck, the murder weapon is sought
using the markings as a guide. As a GENERAL RULE, all rope markings on the neck should be in the shape of an UPSIDE DOWN V, where the KNOT would cause a bruise on the back
of the neck, creating the point of the V.
Other facts pointing the murder may also be revealed when an examination of the neck is carried out. Strangulation usually BREAKS THE HYOID BONE located in the neck , but the bone is VERY RARELY BROKEN during hanging. The breakage of the hyoid would suggest manual strangulation, whereby the victim was strangled using the hands, or via means of another implement (e.g. cord, belt, etc.). When strangulation is the case, death may be caused due to a lack of air, but more likely, as a result of the deliberate compression of
the neck, causing a vagal inhabitation, the situation where the stimulation of the of the neck's VAGUS NERVE causes the heart to stop. In cases where the hyoid bone is not broken, but bruising is evident around the nose and mouth , a death caused by smothering is indicated, thereby dying due to a lack of oxygen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Zahau's hyoid bone was broken (fractured) according to ME Lucas AR.

 

[Carioca]

I wonder if Natalie Gore asked her husband," honey, did you ever TEST the orange/red towing rope to see if there was any evidence of "water" evidence on where it may have been used / docked before." Hubby Bill may have responded," no, I'm sure we took swabs of the rope and our great investigative team would've mentioned if something was discovered."

There was no definitive explanation where this orange/red towing rope came from and there wasn't a new wrapper that contained this rope mentioned from what I've read so if am I correct.....this was a USED towing rope? Maybe the water components in Coronado are different than Memphis or AZ......

This is an interesting video - rope looks very similar to the one used to bind Rebecca.

Insanely good dock roping skills
"She can get the boat tied to the dock with some serious knot mastery without even bending down." (I can't figure out how to insert the video rather than link it.. :blushing

http://youtu.be/qbsdy0SK9JU

 

[*Lash*]

Here you go Carioca!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbsdy0SK9JU"]Dock Roping Skills - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Serpico]

This is an interesting video - rope looks very similar to the one used to bind Rebecca.

Insanely good dock roping skills
"She can get the boat tied to the dock with some serious knot mastery without even bending down." (I can't figure out how to insert the video rather than link it.. :blushing

http://youtu.be/qbsdy0SK9JU

That does look like the rope.....least we know where it belongs and the various
uses. How it wound up at 1043 Ocean Blvd is just one of the many unsolved aspects in this tragic death case.

 

[IQuestion]

That does look like the rope.....least we know where it belongs and the various
uses. How it wound up at 1043 Ocean Blvd is just one of the many unsolved aspects in this tragic death case.

CARIOCA & SERPICO....I feel as if I am at a tennis match with 2 great players who continue to make incredible shots, right to the edge of the court, but always staying in play!! You have enabled us to see beyond the myopic lens of SDSO's investigation. So many things about this investigation scream, "Well that's good enough, let's call it a wrap!" and criticize anyone who was not willing to accept, "...that's good enough!"
There are many people who always want to "shut-down investigations"...and there are many, many reasons. You name it: political pressure, financial, going with the flow, don't make waves, it is not in the best interest of the department, it makes us look incompetent, the victims are dead--nothing we do will bring them back, career/resume enhancement, cover the mistakes of a detective or department, etc. Sometimes an investigation is like a road trip...once you make the wrong turn...it will take you three times as long to get back on the right path. You can have all the best intentions in the world, great car, lots of fuel, great driver etc....but ONCE THE NAVIGATOR HAS GIVEN YOU A WRONG DIRECTION ...
I was extremely surprised at the lapse in acquiring "cell phone information." And, the reason being, the case that won Tsuida, homicide detective of the year.....there were more than 70 SEARCH WARRANTS issued for cell/phone records
But, then again..."outside" (more thorough, funded?) agencies were brought in for assistance.
San Diego Homicide Detective Angela TsuidaNamed California Homicide Investigators Association’s 2010 CHIA Investigator of the YearWritten by Kay Ochi
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37126792/Borderline-July-2010
(just wanted to make sure I got my source in place:blushing

 

[Serpico]

CARIOCA & SERPICO....I feel as if I am at a tennis match with 2 great players who continue to make incredible shots, right to the edge of the court, but always staying in play!! You have enabled us to see beyond the myopic lens of SDSO's investigation. So many things about this investigation scream, "Well that's good enough, let's call it a wrap!" and criticize anyone who was not willing to accept, "...that's good enough!"
There are many people who always want to "shut-down investigations"...and there are many, many reasons. You name it: political pressure, financial, going with the flow, don't make waves, it is not in the best interest of the department, it makes us look incompetent, the victims are dead--nothing we do will bring them back, career/resume enhancement, cover the mistakes of a detective or department, etc. Sometimes an investigation is like a road trip...once you make the wrong turn...it will take you three times as long to get back on the right path. You can have all the best intentions in the world, great car, lots of fuel, great driver etc....but ONCE THE NAVIGATOR HAS GIVEN YOU A WRONG DIRECTION ...
I was extremely surprised at the lapse in acquiring "cell phone information." And, the reason being, the case that won Tsuida, homicide detective of the year.....there were more than 70 SEARCH WARRANTS issued for cell/phone records
But, then again..."outside" (more thorough, funded?) agencies were brought in for assistance.
San Diego Homicide Detective Angela TsuidaNamed California Homicide Investigators Association’s 2010 CHIA Investigator of the YearWritten by Kay Ochi
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37126792/Borderline-July-2010
(just wanted to make sure I got my source in place:blushing

That's why it is so disheartening to figure out that Detective Tsuida just followed
the Thompson/Gore "suicide package" rather than her professional instincts. Detective Tsuida was the LEAD DETECTIVE in charge of this case but did we ever SEE or HEAR her speak to the media? Lets see there was Nesbit,Curran or Cullen , Jan Caldwell barked gibberish on more than a few occasions and at the Sept. 2,2011 PC the lead detective never spoke. There was also something that a WS poster wrote a few days ago...Detective Tsuida asked to be at the RZ Autopsy but instead was replaced by Forensic technician John Farrell.I shouldn't say Farrell replaced her rather he was present and Angela Tsuida was not.

Thanks for the compliment though Carioca has far better skills than I possess.

 

[Serpico]

I've re-read brash ME Lucas AR about a half dozen times this month for various reasons and yesterday trying to understand WHAT ELSE Lucas was either downplaying in his Report or just glossed over I stumbled upon an educational website = ORACLE EDUCATION - THINK QUEST. I'll just post and see what others have to say when compared to Lucas AR and Dr.Cyril Wecht's comments.
-----------------------------------
Hanged Victims
A body discovered hanging or suspended in some way, usually contains telltale signs of a death due to lack of oxygen. There includes such signs as blue skin colour, burst blood vessels in the eyes and inflated lungs.Forensic pathologists examine the rope marks on the
neck to determine if they contain evidently inflamed edges, a sign that the victim was ALIVE before being hanged. However, when no inflammation marks are present, it suggests the victim was DEAD before being hanged and the HANGING was some form of a COVER UP . The rope marks on the victim's neck are examined to check that they match the rope found at the scene of the crime.
The slightest difference of the rope impression from the actual rope itself, would undoubtedly imply that the rope was not the murder tool and where the victim did die of a lack of oxygen and does have evident bruises on the neck, the murder weapon is sought
using the markings as a guide. As a GENERAL RULE, all rope markings on the neck should be in the shape of an UPSIDE DOWN V, where the KNOT would cause a bruise on the back
of the neck, creating the point of the V.
Other facts pointing the murder may also be revealed when an examination of the neck is carried out. Strangulation usually BREAKS THE HYOID BONE located in the neck , but the bone is VERY RARELY BROKEN during hanging. The breakage of the hyoid would suggest manual strangulation, whereby the victim was strangled using the hands, or via means of another implement (e.g. cord, belt, etc.). When strangulation is the case, death may be caused due to a lack of air, but more likely, as a result of the deliberate compression of
the neck, causing a vagal inhabitation, the situation where the stimulation of the of the neck's VAGUS NERVE causes the heart to stop. In cases where the hyoid bone is not broken, but bruising is evident around the nose and mouth , a death caused by smothering is indicated, thereby dying due to a lack of oxygen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Zahau's hyoid bone was broken (fractured) according to ME Lucas AR.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Cyril Wecht questions the ME Lucas findings in Ann Rule's book - page 249.
Did Dr. Wecht ever release his own official AR on RZ?

 

[Salem]

I've re-read brash ME Lucas AR about a half dozen times this month for various reasons and yesterday trying to understand WHAT ELSE Lucas was either downplaying in his Report or just glossed over I stumbled upon an educational website = ORACLE EDUCATION - THINK QUEST. I'll just post and see what others have to say when compared to Lucas AR and Dr.Cyril Wecht's comments.
-----------------------------------
Hanged Victims
A body discovered hanging or suspended in some way, usually contains telltale signs of a death due to lack of oxygen. There includes such signs as blue skin colour, burst blood vessels in the eyes and inflated lungs.Forensic pathologists examine the rope marks on the
neck to determine if they contain evidently inflamed edges, a sign that the victim was ALIVE before being hanged. However, when no inflammation marks are present, it suggests the victim was DEAD before being hanged and the HANGING was some form of a COVER UP . The rope marks on the victim's neck are examined to check that they match the rope found at the scene of the crime.
The slightest difference of the rope impression from the actual rope itself, would undoubtedly imply that the rope was not the murder tool and where the victim did die of a lack of oxygen and does have evident bruises on the neck, the murder weapon is sought
using the markings as a guide. As a GENERAL RULE, all rope markings on the neck should be in the shape of an UPSIDE DOWN V, where the KNOT would cause a bruise on the back
of the neck, creating the point of the V.
Other facts pointing the murder may also be revealed when an examination of the neck is carried out. Strangulation usually BREAKS THE HYOID BONE located in the neck , but the bone is VERY RARELY BROKEN during hanging. The breakage of the hyoid would suggest manual strangulation, whereby the victim was strangled using the hands, or via means of another implement (e.g. cord, belt, etc.). When strangulation is the case, death may be caused due to a lack of air, but more likely, as a result of the deliberate compression of
the neck, causing a vagal inhabitation, the situation where the stimulation of the of the neck's VAGUS NERVE causes the heart to stop. In cases where the hyoid bone is not broken, but bruising is evident around the nose and mouth , a death caused by smothering is indicated, thereby dying due to a lack of oxygen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Rebecca Zahau's hyoid bone was broken (fractured) according to ME Lucas AR.

Hi Serpico,

Can you link this up for us please?

Thanks!

Salem