The Forensics is what gives the JIDI his power

[madeleine]

JR said that in DOI.Truth is,I believe the results were never released.
One thing the R's want ppl to forget is that LE needed 'probable cause' in order to search them in the first place,meaning,IMO,there is a lot more evidence against the R's then we are able to see.
Recall that Patsy said in DOI that LE thought they were using JB as a sexual substitute for herself.To which she said "EWWWW!!!" (or something to that effect).Again,they would have to have a reason or reasons to think this was true.(and we still don't know what the 'spots' were on the pieces of carpet that were removed from near JB's bed.they were never publicly identified.)
Patsy's comment re: the above reminds me of SD saying 'the hit dog barks'.I think Patsy was definitely barking!

Didn't they say those were urine stains?The way ST put's it I understand something else.......((shrug)) If it would have been semen I guess the case would have been closed by now(?)....but since we're dealing with people who give instructions for samples NOT to be tested...........:banghead: you never know

ST/pg 48

"They were also looking for traces of semen,and in the victim's bedroom,ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet."

 

[madeleine]

And what about that hand lotion found near JB's bed?IIRC it was ridiculed in DOI...and whenever the Ramsey's ridicule evidence it means it's something important.

 

[BBB167893]

Recall that Patsy said in DOI that LE thought they were using JB as a sexual substitute for herself.

That's pretty much what I'm suggesting.

To which she said "EWWWW!!!" (or something to that effect).

Yeah, she had a knack for portraying anyone who posed those questions as perverts. Whether that was pot-and-kettle I will leave up to the individual to decide.

Patsy's comment re: the above reminds me of SD saying 'the hit dog barks'.I think Patsy was definitely barking!

Works for me!

 

[questfortrue]

I'll check.


On my part or hers?


One question at a time please. (And keep in mind that we are just spitballing.)


JAR and BR can be discounted because they were males. Like I said, situational molesters use children as replacements for adult objects of desire. JR has shown an attraction to females. So that lets them out. As for ER and MR, there was no need. It probably never even occurred to him. Yes, he did get a little on the side, which is why she divorced him in the first place, but his mistress was an adult too.
That's pretty much my point: during his first marriage, he had his wife and his mistress to fulfill his sexual needs. But, as I see it, when PR got sick, it was a whole new ballgame. Her sickness and treatments left her unable to enjoy sex (if not unable to engage in it entirely). Getting a mistress was out for three reasons:

1) Too hard to keep secret. He got caught once. He knew the risks.

2) Imagine the scandal of cheating on an ill woman. (To say nothing of what her family might have done.)

3) He had suffered a pretty severe mental shock at that point. He'd lost ER to a car accident. A bright young woman cut down in the very flower of life. That probably scared him. It would scare me.

What I'm saying is that, in his mind (again, to my thinking), adults were too risky. He'd gotten divorce, buried ER, and PR was very sick. Even though she lived, she was beyond repair in that way. So who does that leave? JB. She was "safe." By that I mean she was too young to get cancer, she was too young to get herself killed behind the wheel of a car, and she was easy to manipulate into silence due to her training and sexualization for pageant competition. And she reminded him of PR. JR said it himself: JB was PR, through and through.

That's how I see it.



Any number of reasons. Maybe because he figured he was a "real man" who didn't "need" *advertiser censored* when he could get the real thing.



I don't either, for the reasons I outlined above. Still, I am glad he asked. It shows he's keen to learn, even if he doesn't agree with it.


Agreed, fully.


Thank you, that's what I'm trying to say.


I would combine that with the psychological factors as well.

There’s this too. The reason it’s my belief that JR was involved in molesting his daughter are all of the reasons you’ve listed. Plus something like desentization to molestation introduced at Subic Bay. (In The Marcos Dynasty author Sterling Seagrave provides graphic illustrations of the pre-pubescent extremes of Seventh Fleet shore leave at Subic Bay. He quotes an Australian military attache who once observed, ``At Subic, you're a virgin until you've ‘s. . .’a two year-old''.) Sick.
It too struck me as very odd that Nedra slept in the bed adjacent to JB’s. Most adults would choose a vacant room, such as MR’s or JAR’s.
Lastly, according to Judith Lewis Hermann who wrote about incest, many informants told her that their brothers were not molested, but that they developed assaultive, abusive behavior in identification with their fathers. All stated moo.

 

[Chrishope]

There’s this too. The reason it’s my belief that JR was involved in molesting his daughter are all of the reasons you’ve listed. Plus something like desentization to molestation introduced at Subic Bay. (In The Marcos Dynasty author Sterling Seagrave provides graphic illustrations of the pre-pubescent extremes of Seventh Fleet shore leave at Subic Bay. He quotes an Australian military attache who once observed, ``At Subic, you're a virgin until you've ‘s. . .’a two year-old''.) Sick.
It too struck me as very odd that Nedra slept in the bed adjacent to JB’s. Most adults would choose a vacant room, such as MR’s or JAR’s.
Lastly, according to Judith Lewis Hermann who wrote about incest, many informants told her that their brothers were not molested, but that they developed assaultive, abusive behavior in identification with their fathers. All stated moo.

I'm sorry, I don't see any evidence that JR was introduced to child sex at Subic Bay. I served in the Navy and have been to Subic several times. Lord knows you can get what you want there, but that applies to half the ports in the world.

 

[questfortrue]

I wasn’t portraying that JR himself actually participated alongside other military deviants.
And obviously, can’t comment about your experience. Not having visited Subic or other military ports, I’m simply repeating the dark history of Subic from the time period when JR served there. This is according to historians and the priest who implemented help for the child prostitutes there. But IDK and you could be totally correct about it having played no role in desensitizing any of the military there.

 

[UKGuy]

I wasn’t portraying that JR himself actually participated alongside other military deviants.
And obviously, can’t comment about your experience. Not having visited Subic or other military ports, I’m simply repeating the dark history of Subic from the time period when JR served there. This is according to historians and the priest who implemented help for the child prostitutes there. But IDK and you could be totally correct about it having played no role in desensitizing any of the military there.

questfortrue,
Sure, maybe SBTC was a hint to JR will we ever know?

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm sorry, I don't see any evidence that JR was introduced to child sex at Subic Bay. I served in the Navy and have been to Subic several times. Lord knows you can get what you want there, but that applies to half the ports in the world.

Right. INCLUDING Subic Bay. Keep in mind that JR also had Access Graphics offices in Amsterdam- another child *advertiser censored* capital.

 

[BBB167893]

There’s this too. The reason it’s my belief that JR was involved in molesting his daughter are all of the reasons you’ve listed. Plus something like desentization to molestation introduced at Subic Bay. (In The Marcos Dynasty author Sterling Seagrave provides graphic illustrations of the pre-pubescent extremes of Seventh Fleet shore leave at Subic Bay. He quotes an Australian military attache who once observed, ``At Subic, you're a virgin until you've ‘s. . .’a two year-old''.) Sick.
It too struck me as very odd that Nedra slept in the bed adjacent to JB’s. Most adults would choose a vacant room, such as MR’s or JAR’s.
Lastly, according to Judith Lewis Hermann who wrote about incest, many informants told her that their brothers were not molested, but that they developed assaultive, abusive behavior in identification with their fathers. All stated moo.

Whether or not JR himself took part in the "bounties" (Sorry, I couldn't think of any other phrase) that Subic had, it's at least likely that he knew guys who did and did nothing about it.

A while back, I caught an interview with Stacy Lannert, who had written a book about multi-generational molestation in her family. It was enlightening, to say the least.

 

[midwest mama]

I'm sorry, I don't see any evidence that JR was introduced to child sex at Subic Bay. I served in the Navy and have been to Subic several times. Lord knows you can get what you want there, but that applies to half the ports in the world.

Here's a statement JR made in DOI, pg 69:
"As Beth's father, I have a special place in my heart for her. She was our oldest daughter and our first child, born in the Phillipines while I was serving as an officer in the Navy. Beth has a birth certificate fro Olongapo City, probably the roughest liberty port in the world."

My thoughts? How nice, JR has a special place in his heart for his dead daughter. A special place...somehow that just seems too minimal for a parent whose first child was tragically killed in an accident. I believe this statement was the only outward remark JR could make to help us understand the importance Beth really had to him. It had to be kept minimal in order to portray less of JR's anguish.

IMO, I think JR devoted as much, if not a bit more, journalism to Beth in DOI as to JB. His ability to show me how much he suffered upon losing Beth, and continued to suffer, at least until the writing of DOI, has convinced me his psychological health was greatly eroded. From my own personal experience with grief resolution after my first husband was killed unexpectedly, it took five years to recognize my need for profession assistance, and another year of working with a professional before I began to heal. From the additional behaviors JR revealed about himself in DOI after losing Beth, I am assuming he was emotionally and psychologically unbalanced at the time JB was killed - at least with regard to his perception of his family.

And, JR let us know, 'subconsciously' if you will, that HE KNEW all about the infamous reputation of Subic Bay.

 

[Nom de plume]

Here's a statement JR made in DOI, pg 69:
"As Beth's father, I have a special place in my heart for her. She was our oldest daughter and our first child, born in the Phillipines while I was serving as an officer in the Navy. Beth has a birth certificate fro Olongapo City, probably the roughest liberty port in the world."

My thoughts? How nice, JR has a special place in his heart for his dead daughter. A special place...somehow that just seems too minimal for a parent whose first child was tragically killed in an accident. I believe this statement was the only outward remark JR could make to help us understand the importance Beth really had to him. It had to be kept minimal in order to portray less of JR's anguish.

IMO, I think JR devoted as much, if not a bit more, journalism to Beth in DOI as to JB. His ability to show me how much he suffered upon losing Beth, and continued to suffer, at least until the writing of DOI, has convinced me his psychological health was greatly eroded. From my own personal experience with grief resolution after my first husband was killed unexpectedly, it took five years to recognize my need for profession assistance, and another year of working with a professional before I began to heal. From the additional behaviors JR revealed about himself in DOI after losing Beth, I am assuming he was emotionally and psychologically unbalanced at the time JB was killed - at least with regard to his perception of his family.

And, JR let us know, 'subconsciously' if you will, that HE KNEW all about the infamous reputation of Subic Bay.

BBM

Yes, you'd think that DOI was about him losing Beth, not JonBenet.

Anyone that was ever stationed in the Phillipines knows about Subic Bay, and what goes on all over the Phillipines. I noticed he also wondered "if she'd want to keep her birthplace a secret as she grew up. After all, who would brag about being born in Olongapo City?" IMO, the fact that he would even think about that shows not only his knowledge of what goes on there, but he knows the rest of the world knows as well. The question is, how personal is his knowledge?

 

[questfortrue]

I’m sure I’m repeating some things other (both well-versed and eloquent) posters have written, but I wanted to summarize what I have read which is so confusing.

The Lead Up: Between Thanksgiving and Christmas JB was seen at school as particularly clingy to PR. The change noted at school could lead one to believe that the new “fear/apprehension” and need to be clingy to her mother was evidence someone in the house was doing more invasive abuse.

On the 17th, there were 3 very close phone calls to Dr. B in the evening. Neither Dr. B nor PR state that they remember what the calls were in regard to. (My suspicion pain or blood in her vaginal area). On the evening of the party on the 23rd, there is the reported incident of an unhappy JB saying she didn’t feel pretty, as well as someone’s “accidental” 911 call.

Finally, after a happy Christmas Day, another party, JB is killed. That’s a brutal sentence even to write.

The Resulting Contradictions:
1) In one of the interviews, PR tells that she had taught JB never to let anyone touch her where her bathing suit covers her, except for her and Dr. B when her mother is present. But JB was shown to call out to any adult around “Wipe, wipe” to obtain help wiping herself. That “purported” admonition from PR apparently carried less weight than PR getting on her about soiling or not wiping herself properly.

2) Another thing not fitting: JB would go into her brother’s room (and bed) after she had wet her own bed. She did have another bed in her room though. (NP slept there when PR was receiving treatments in the east) Why did JB go to her brother’s room, is this indicative of a trust she had of her brother? Was this trust still there between Thanksgiving and Christmas when JB’s school noted how extra clingy JB had become towards her mother?

3) Assume PR is writing a RN to prove a kidnapper. In the meantime, assume JR is helping to stage a pedophile killer. (As the FBI stated, the two motivations- kidnapper for the money and pedophile for the lust-don’t fit together.)
So the staging itself is contradictory: It seems like the garrote was to show an evil pedophile with sex games in mind. But the garrote was attached to a real ligature which strangled JB. IMHO, it seems like the paintbrush insertion was to disguise an earlier assault, not for the purpose of showing an evil pedophile, because she was all cleaned up. So you have phony – a garrote – and real –a ligature strangling. You have the paintbrush insertion –phony? sexual assault or disguise of prior abuse realities.

PR made JB into a “mini-me”, a sexualized little 6-year-old beauty queen, moo. (6-year-olds are not supposed to be sexy! It’s phony of the worst kind.) How would it not be a surprise that this might stir something in JR; he had after all dumped the woman he’d been having an affair with and moved on to PR, his own beauty queen. ( As SD would say, “just spitballing” here.)

Layers of staging, layers of motivations.