The Forensics is what gives the JIDI his power

[voynich]

It's a hard call. But not that hard.



You bet.



I have great respect for Cyril Wecht. But this is one area where I actually agree with HOTYH to a point. I think it was Deedee who pointed out that an injury like that would most likely cause shock, which puts the body in shut-down mode: the heart rate slows drastically and breathing becomes almost nonexistent.

(I notice there are other things that Wecht says that you're not too game to tackle, but in due time)

Well obviously the time that separates the two lethal events presents a problem for RDI since it appears the two happened in quick succession to one another. There's no reason for the R's to engage in a pre-meditated murder of their daughter and no reason to use two different lethal methods in quick succession to achieve it.

If you're alluding to hymen I've already addressed it

we do not know when it happened, who did it, what the event was that caused it, how, what her opening size was originally, and whether it has any relevance whatsoever to her death. for all you know, some kid did this to JB, and an intruder, unknown to both parties, went on to kill her -- that would be as consistent w/findings as any RDI spin.

 

[BBB167893]

Well obviously the time that separates the two lethal events presents a problem for RDI since it appears the two happened in quick succession to one another.

Not if you listen to the pathologists. They put it at a minimum of ten minutes and up to an hour.

There's no reason for the R's to engage in a pre-meditated murder of their daughter and no reason to use two different lethal methods in quick succession to achieve it.

I've never claimed either.

If you're alluding to hymen I've already addressed it

we do not know when it happened, who did it, what the event was that caused it, how, what her opening size was originally, and whether it has any relevance whatsoever to her death. for all you know, some kid did this to JB, and an intruder, unknown to both parties, went on to kill her -- that would be as consistent w/findings as any RDI spin.

I had to set aside an entire chapter on this, for the record.

 

[voynich]

Not if you listen to the pathologists. They put it at a minimum of ten minutes and up to an hour.



I've never claimed either.



I had to set aside an entire chapter on this, for the record.

some pathologists. other pathologists and ER doctors think one occurred in quick succession (under 10 minutes) to another.

that's cool but i doubt you would be able to state definitively --
we do not know when it happened, who did it, what the event was that caused it, how, what her opening size was originally, and whether it has any relevance whatsoever to her death. for all you know, some kid did this to JB, and an intruder, unknown to both parties, went on to kill her.

Since the blood from her vagina was mixed with intruder DNA, that there could be the cause of your hymen erosion

 

[BBB167893]

some pathologists. other pathologists and ER doctors think one occurred in quick succession (under 10 minutes) to another.

Like I said, it's a hard call. But it's the brain swelling that does it.

that's cool but i doubt you would be able to state definitively --
we do not know when it happened, who did it, what the event was that caused it, how, what her opening size was originally, and whether it has any relevance whatsoever to her death. for all you know, some kid did this to JB, and an intruder, unknown to both parties, went on to kill her.

I don't state it definitively. I make it known that this is what I think happened.

Since the blood from her vagina was mixed with intruder DNA, that there could be the cause of your hymen erosion

No way. One occurrence would not do that.

 

[madeleine]

ST's book/pg 70 (re dec 30)

"Eller wanted to discuss some possible evidence that would soon be coming to the CBI for testing,but he was interrupted by one of the examiners ,who said they had already been contacted by the office of the district attorney and told not to begin any such tests.

Before Eller could even ask why,Hofstrom walked in,almost as if on cue,to deliver a letter ordering the CBI not to test certain types of evidence,particularly very small samples.The instructions came not from the DA's office or the police department but from Bryan Morgan."



WTH????????????????:waitasec:

And you want me to trust Lacy's DNA???????Now I understand why she didn't test the garrote and everything else for touch DNA.

 

[Sophie]

ST's book/pg 70 (re dec 30)

"Eller wanted to discuss some possible evidence that would soon be coming to the CBI for testing,but he was interrupted by one of the examiners ,who said they had already been contacted by the office of the district attorney and told not to begin any such tests.

Before Eller could even ask why,Hofstrom walked in,almost as if on cue,to deliver a letter ordering the CBI not to test certain types of evidence,particularly very small samples.The instructions came not from the DA's office or the police department but from Bryan Morgan."



WTH????????????????:waitasec:




nd you want me to trust Lacy's DNA???????Now I understand why she didn't test the garrote and everything else for touch DNA.

That is unbelievable, Madeleine!

 

[madeleine]

Ain't it pathetic.They keep shouting DNA here,DNA there and they were the first ones to say no to vital stuff being tested.

Says it all.

I'd keep my mouth shut(bla bla the power of forensics) if I were part of the RST.

 

[BBB167893]

ST's book/pg 70 (re dec 30)

"Eller wanted to discuss some possible evidence that would soon be coming to the CBI for testing,but he was interrupted by one of the examiners ,who said they had already been contacted by the office of the district attorney and told not to begin any such tests.

Before Eller could even ask why,Hofstrom walked in,almost as if on cue,to deliver a letter ordering the CBI not to test certain types of evidence,particularly very small samples.The instructions came not from the DA's office or the police department but from Bryan Morgan."



WTH????????????????:waitasec:

And you want me to trust Lacy's DNA???????Now I understand why she didn't test the garrote and everything else for touch DNA.

My...GOD.

 

[voynich]

I don't state it definitively. I make it known that this is what I think happened. .

Oh I don't think so. Is there any specific evidence that would lead you to believe that JR, to the exclusion of anyone else, is the only individual that could have done this, based on his past history?

 

[BBB167893]

Oh I don't think so. Is there any specific evidence that would lead you to believe that JR, to the exclusion of anyone else, is the only individual that could have done this, based on his past history?

Excellent question, voynich. One which I was forced to tackle in that very chapter. I state clearly that I cannot be 100% certain that it was him. Any evidence I present to that effect is purely circumstantial. However, when I take everything together, I have good reason to believe he was the one responsible. I'll give you the highlights so we won't be stuck here all day:

1) PR actually said that she had considered it. Her reasoning as to why she discounted that consideration is problematic, to put it mildly.

2) JR's fibers found in JB's underwear and his...shall we say, excited response to it. Actually, the Rs' attitude in general towards the subject is highly troublesome to me.

As for his past history, you don't need a past history to be a situational molester.

 

[voynich]

Excellent question, voynich. One which I was forced to tackle in that very chapter. I state clearly that I cannot be 100% certain that it was him. Any evidence I present to that effect is purely circumstantial. However, when I take everything together, I have good reason to believe he was the one responsible. I'll give you the highlights so we won't be stuck here all day:

1) PR actually said that she had considered it. Her reasoning as to why she discounted that consideration is problematic, to put it mildly.

2) JR's fibers found in JB's underwear and his...shall we say, excited response to it. Actually, the Rs' attitude in general towards the subject is highly troublesome to me.

As for his past history, you don't need a past history to be a situational molester.

i've heard that JR's shirt was black wool, but the fibers found were black cotton. What were PR's reasonig to discount it and why has R's other childrens never reported it?

 

[BBB167893]

i've heard that JR's shirt was black wool, but the fibers found were black cotton.

The interviewer was QUITE clear.

What were PR's reasonig to discount it

Not because she had faith in JR that he wouldn't do that. But because Nedra, her mom, was sleeping in the next room like a guard dog. Guarding against WHAT is the question.

and why has R's other childrens never reported it?

Maybe it never happened to them. I was afraid of this. Every single time I try to distinguish between a pedophile and a situational molester, it doesn't work for some reason.

 

[voynich]

The interviewer was QUITE clear.



Not because she had faith in JR that he wouldn't do that. But because Nedra, her mom, was sleeping in the next room like a guard dog. Guarding against WHAT is the question.



Maybe it never happened to them. I was afraid of this. Every single time I try to distinguish between a pedophile and a situational molester, it doesn't work for some reason.

DO we have a primary source black cotten versus wool fibers?

Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

WHy didn't JR situationally molest JAR MR ER BR or have *advertiser censored* on his computer or in his house, why, when he divorced his first wife, MR or ER situational molestation wasn't raised?

 

[DeeDee249]

DO we have a primary source black cotten versus wool fibers?

Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

WHy didn't JR situationally molest JAR MR ER BR or have *advertiser censored* on his computer or in his house, why, when he divorced his first wife, MR or ER situational molestation wasn't raised?

JAR, BR, MR or ER were not JB. JB was sexualized, tarted up like a showgirl. (as a matter of fact one of her more infamous pageant outfits was exactly like a showgirl's costume).I don't think this is a comparison that works.
I'd discount molestation of the sons simply because in a situation like this, the parent would be less likely to molest a same-sex child. Parental sexual abuse is not always true pedophilia. They are not necessarily attracted to the child as much as they are attracted to the availability of the child.
If he molested JB, it would be because she was she appealed to him in a way that his other children did not.
As for the *advertiser censored*, we don't know that it wasn't found. I have read reports saying it was found on computers in the Amsterdam office. But I don't know whether it is accurate.

 

[voynich]

JAR, BR, MR or ER were not JB. JB was sexualized, tarted up like a showgirl. (as a matter of fact one of her more infamous pageant outfits was exactly like a showgirl's costume).I don't think this is a comparison that works.
I'd discount molestation of the sons simply because in a situation like this, the parent would be less likely to molest a same-sex child. Parental sexual abuse is not always true pedophilia. They are not necessarily attracted to the child as much as they are attracted to the availability of the child.
If he molested JB, it would be because she was she appealed to him in a way that his other children did not.
As for the *advertiser censored*, we don't know that it wasn't found. I have read reports saying it was found on computers in the Amsterdam office. But I don't know whether it is accurate.

Your spin still fails to link JB to JR. It also fails to establish that this has anything to do with her murder. I recall reading that no *advertiser censored* of any kind was found on his computer. And I believe it is accurate.

 

[DeeDee249]

Of course it has to do with her murder. There are many on both sides who think JB's sexualized image had something to do with this crime. IF JR was the molester (as some believe) this certainly shows why he'd limit his activities to JB and not his other kids.
BTW, it is not unusual when a child is sexually abused by a family member to be the ONLY child in the family to be abused. Often there will be one child who is targeted. And the others are not.

 

[BBB167893]

DO we have a primary source black cotten versus wool fibers?

I'll check.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

On my part or hers?

Why didn't JR situationally molest JAR MR ER BR or have *advertiser censored* on his computer or in his house, why, when he divorced his first wife, MR or ER situational molestation wasn't raised?

One question at a time please. (And keep in mind that we are just spitballing.)

Why didn't JR situationally molest JAR MR ER BR?

JAR and BR can be discounted because they were males. Like I said, situational molesters use children as replacements for adult objects of desire. JR has shown an attraction to females. So that lets them out. As for ER and MR, there was no need. It probably never even occurred to him. Yes, he did get a little on the side, which is why she divorced him in the first place, but his mistress was an adult too.
That's pretty much my point: during his first marriage, he had his wife and his mistress to fulfill his sexual needs. But, as I see it, when PR got sick, it was a whole new ballgame. Her sickness and treatments left her unable to enjoy sex (if not unable to engage in it entirely). Getting a mistress was out for three reasons:

1) Too hard to keep secret. He got caught once. He knew the risks.

2) Imagine the scandal of cheating on an ill woman. (To say nothing of what her family might have done.)

3) He had suffered a pretty severe mental shock at that point. He'd lost ER to a car accident. A bright young woman cut down in the very flower of life. That probably scared him. It would scare me.

What I'm saying is that, in his mind (again, to my thinking), adults were too risky. He'd gotten divorce, buried ER, and PR was very sick. Even though she lived, she was beyond repair in that way. So who does that leave? JB. She was "safe." By that I mean she was too young to get cancer, she was too young to get herself killed behind the wheel of a car, and she was easy to manipulate into silence due to her training and sexualization for pageant competition. And she reminded him of PR. JR said it himself: JB was PR, through and through.

That's how I see it.

Why didn't JR have *advertiser censored* on his computer or in his house?

Any number of reasons. Maybe because he figured he was a "real man" who didn't "need" *advertiser censored* when he could get the real thing.

JAR, BR, MR or ER were not JB. JB was sexualized, tarted up like a showgirl. (as a matter of fact one of her more infamous pageant outfits was exactly like a showgirl's costume).I don't think this is a comparison that works.

I don't either, for the reasons I outlined above. Still, I am glad he asked. It shows he's keen to learn, even if he doesn't agree with it.

I'd discount molestation of the sons simply because in a situation like this, the parent would be less likely to molest a same-sex child.

Agreed, fully.

Parental sexual abuse is not always true pedophilia. They are not necessarily attracted to the child as much as they are attracted to the availability of the child.

Thank you, that's what I'm trying to say.

If he molested JB, it would be because she was she appealed to him in a way that his other children did not.

I would combine that with the psychological factors as well.

 

[voynich]

Why do you think JR is more likely than say BR or another child playing doctor, or, for that matter, another adult w/history w/children sex play?

A "friend" of JB could just as likely be a "situational molestor".

 

[BBB167893]

Why do you think JR is more likely than say BR or another child playing doctor, or, for that matter, another adult w/history w/children sex play?

A "friend" of JB could just as likely be a "situational molestor".

That's all true, certainly. But let me lay this on you. It's likely that both an adult and a sufficiently savvy child would want her to keep it a secret. But, which one would she most likely obey, and which one would be more likely to be careful so as not to do any immediately noticable damage?

I'd go with an adult. So, once we narrow that down, between a parent and a non-parent, who would JB be more likely to trust?

That, and JR's possible psychological issues which I mentioned.

 

[JMO8778]

Your spin still fails to link JB to JR. It also fails to establish that this has anything to do with her murder. I recall reading that no *advertiser censored* of any kind was found on his computer. And I believe it is accurate.

JR said that in DOI.Truth is,I believe the results were never released.
One thing the R's want ppl to forget is that LE needed probable cause in order to search them in the first place,meaning,IMO,there is a lot more evidence against the R's then we are able to see.
Recall that Patsy said in DOI that LE thought they were using JB as a sexual substitute for herself.To which she said "EWWWW!!!" (or something to that effect).Again,they would have to have a reason or reasons to think this was true.(and we still don't know what the 'spots' were on the pieces of carpet that were removed from near JB's bed.they were never publicly identified.)

Patsy's comment re: the above reminds me of SD saying 'the hit dog barks'.I think Patsy was definitely barking!