The Suitcase - Duvet, Sham & Dr. Suess

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
You do not require all the and statements, since one false element makes the remainder redundant. This heuristic is employed in conditional statements usually with the critical condition being evaluated first.

So all you need is the fibers on the top and proof that the top is new or clean.

Assuming there are fibers from the sham and duvet on the top, then because I'm assuming JonBenet wore clean clothes to the White's party, then they should not be there?

Also I think Patsy stated she had purchased the White Gap Top recently when out shopping with JonBenet, at some nearby store?

Thats two reasons for assuming the top was clean on JonBenet the night of the 25th?

here are a few quotes relating to that purchase:

Bonita Papers: Excerpt
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-fleet-priscilla-white.htm


Excerpts from National Enquirer book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentile and David Wright
http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-christmasday.htm


So I think the burden of proof rests with the fiber evidence if its credible then we have a forensic link.




.

UKGuy,

You do not require all the and statements, since one false element makes the remainder redundant. This heuristic is employed in conditional statements usually with the critical condition being evaluated first.

I don't want spend too much time to proof you that above IF-THEN is correct...and yes, ALL 'and's conditions MUST be true to conclude that fibers from duvet CANNOT be on JB shirt. If one of the 'and' condition is false then yes, the fibers from duvet CAN be on JB shirt.... I souldn't take the short cut with SQL statements...I was trying to avoid writing simple English and look what I get myself into...:floorlaugh:

So I think the burden of proof rests with the fiber evidence if its credible then we have a forensic link.

IMO, based on ST carefull statements during deposition, I have no doubts to doubt.....

 

[geojeffrey]

Isn't this the bedspread-duvet cover that had JAR's semen on it???

Just for the record, I do not believe JAR had any involvement, though a fair amount of the evidence points towards BR in my opinion.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Isn't this the bedspread-duvet cover that had JAR's semen on it???
Just for the record, I do not believe JAR had any involvement, though a fair amount of the evidence points towards BR in my opinion.

Yes, JAR's semen has been found on it. This 'fact' has been stated in many books.Thank you for pointing this out to insure accuracy!

 

[OpenMind4U]

Yes, JR through his own words, put the suitcase in his hands. Just like through his own words, he put a child's book in his hands, (That Night!). Just like through his own words, he put himself in the basement window and then down in the basement in his underwear. But, according to him, even if these things and places are related to the crime, HE's 's not, because he can explain it all away. IDK about all of this, because didn't Kolar say he didn't believe JR was involved? Did he spell out what led him to this conclusion, or was it simply his opinion? What about the suitcase and its contents? Did he see any connection to the crime? because really, it shouldn't be disregarded just because it doesn't fit into a certain theory. If the suitcase was involved, then so be it. Actually, my initial impression of the suitcase was that somebody might have been trying to set up JAR, but that opinion was based on just the fact that most of the stuff supposedly belonged to him. If it was a set-up, it was a pitiful attempt. moo

No, Kolar never revealed what HE believes. Apposite, Kolar spend a lot of pages in his book to expose John's lies and unusual behavior. But he never said WHO he believes is/are perpetrator(s).

jmo

 

[Magdalyn]

I wanted to add that the Ramseys could have believed the duvet, sham, and book MAY have had evidence of JBR's assault/and/or/murder on them, thus bundling them away to be on the safe side.

I mean, not to be crude, but semen doesn't always stain (or show up well on a patterned/textured fabric), and even if it did, John wouldn't be able to determine "That stain isn't MY semen, that must be old semen from JAR."

One or the both of them (PR and JR) read crime novels, yes? Surely they know there's a possibility someone left hair or fluids on the duvet. So better safe than sorry: hide it away/get rid of it.

Duvets and comforters get laundered far less than sheets (just ask your local hotel chain, but it's true in most private homes too), which would explain the JAR stain. Something MAY have happened on the comforter/sham the night of her death. There may not be evidence of the assault/murder on the duvet, but they couldn't possible be sure of that, so... :twocents:

 

[OpenMind4U]

Agree Magdalyn, even more to add to your logic. I'm assuming that JAR duvet was a single bed duvet (this what kids in college used the most in dorms). And I'm assuming that the color of this duvet is boy-color/pattern.

JB cannot read yet. But Burke was old enough to read and write.

So, it's very possible that JAR's duvet can be used in Burke's room. And it's very possible that JB could be in Burke's bed, under JAR's duvet, listening to Burke's reading Dr. Suess book...very possible, indeed.

jmo

 

[dodie20]

No, Kolar never revealed what HE believes. Apposite, Kolar spend a lot of pages in his book to expose John's lies and unusual behavior. But he never said WHO he believes is/are perpetrator(s).

jmo

Thank you very much. I haven't read the book and was under the impression that he believed BR was responsible with PR aiding him and for some reason, I thought he believed JR didn't get involved until after the fact. That's what I get for not reading the book myself! Lesson learned, and I think I'll try to order it later tonight. I did try once, but my order wouldn't go through.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,



I don't want spend too much time to proof you that above IF-THEN is correct...and yes, ALL 'and's conditions MUST be true to conclude that fibers from duvet CANNOT be on JB shirt. If one of the 'and' condition is false then yes, the fibers from duvet CAN be on JB shirt.... I souldn't take the short cut with SQL statements...I was trying to avoid writing simple English and look what I get myself into...:floorlaugh:



IMO, based on ST carefull statements during deposition, I have no doubts to doubt.....

OpenMind4U,
if JonBenet was not placed in the suitcase, then she must have been on a bed which had the duvet on it, including the sham. Which seems unusual, then its an unusual case.

Maybe the spare bed was covered with the duvey and sham, and someone read to JonBenet in the spare bedroom, as she lay on the bed?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

I doubt JB was ever placed in the suitcase alive. Could she have fit in it? Maybe.

We know a FEW FACTS about the suitcase.
1. Regardless of JR's blathering about it belonging to his ex-wife (more classic R distancing), it WAS used by JAR to come back and forth when he traveled from Georgia to school in Boulder. JR said this in another interview.
2. Inside there was a Dr. Seuss book and a dark cotton pillow sham and a duvet/comforter and that had dried semen that was definitely sourced to JAR.
3. That FW admitted he MOVED the suitcase and picked up a shard of broken glass and placed in on top of the suitcase.

There are some things that are NOT facts, have been mentioned, but are unproven.
1. That there were fibers from that duvet on JB's shirt.
2. That there were hairs from JB in the suitcase (this was an internet "rumor- it was never mentioned by LE as far as I know, so I completely disregard this one.
3. That JB was inside that suitcase at ANY time, before or after her death.
4. That the suitcase was used to climb in or out the train room window. This was a Lou Smit fantasy, one he desperately hoped was true. Unfortunately, it wasn't. No adult could have balanced on that suitcase and climbed UP a wall and maneuvered in that window well and out that window. Didn't happen.

There are some things that have been tried to be linked to the crime but simply cannot be, no matter how much it is tried.
1. That the scuff mark on the wall was made by the intruder as he climbed up or down that wall. Unfortunately, NO scuff mark on a wall can be Date/Time dated. NO way to prove when it was left or made.
2. The dried semen on the duvet cannot be linked to the crime because it also cannot be "dated". While we can prove WHO left it, NO ONE can prove WHEN. It is certainly no surprise to find semen on bedding belonging to a college boy.
3. The Dr. Seuss book is suspicious by nature of where it was found. If JAR used it (the suitcase) to go back and forth, he certainly would not take the book.

The whole package- duvet/book/suitcase in the basement LOOKS like a portable child-molestation kit. But there is simply no way to tie it to the crime UNLESS there is definite, proven evidence - like the duvet fibers on her shirt, or even MORE - if the dark fibers on her pubic area were tested against the duvet or JR's shirt or navy terry bathrobe found in the den (odd place for a robe). Unless this testing was done, there is simply no way to link the suitcase, duvet or book to the crime.
We know JR's wool shirt fibers were found in JB's panty crotch, so we know they did test the fibers, but whether they tested against her pubic area as well we do not know. And we do not know whether they tried to match the navy terry bathrobe to it either.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Thank you DeeDee.

I'll go back AGAIN to one and only one trustful source - BPD Lead Investigator Steve Thomas - about these duvet fibers.

15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up
16 with a conclusion that there was a
17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket
18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on
19 JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is
20 that the right term?

21 A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth
22 refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever
23 offer a report or an explanation concerning
24 that.

25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the
1 CBI, didn't they?

2 A. On what point?

3 Q. On the question of whether there
4 were fibers inside materials found in the
5 suitcase found under the window in the
6 basement consistent with fibers found on
7 JonBenet?

8 A. No, I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's
9 position or stating this consistency of these
10 fibers, but I'm not aware of a disagreement
11 between the FBI and that finding.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but here how I understand the above information. (The comments in italic blue under *** are IMO)

- CBI came to conclusion that fibers from duvet and fibers found on JB shirt are match (in 'consistent' with each other);

- ST heard that RST camp (Lou Smith and Deputy DA DeMuth) was referring to these CBI findings...but he never heard BPD (BPD Detective Trujillo) explanation or concerns about. **** In another word, BPD is OK with CBI findings, has no concerns. ;

- FBI have CBI report and had review it's findings. Does FBI not agree with CBI findings? According to ST, he never heard about disagreement. ***** During deposition, ST has pressured to acknowledge any inconsistancy or validity or disagreement among BPD and DA and even FBI in regards of CBI findings...but ST didn't hear any issues against CBI findings...not from BPD not from FBI...

So, if my understanding is correct then I cannot see why anyone could have doubt in validity of CBI findings. In another word, forensic connection between duvet and JB shirt exist. Hence, duvet has connection with murder!

You'll probably ask: why we never read about these fibers in PMPT, ST or Kolar books?...why this particular evidence has kept under such a quiet cover?...IDK, but somehow I feel (speculating!) that there is more to the story (on the duvet!) than we (the public) have privy to know.

jmo

 

[DeeDee249]

If it a fact that the pubic area was wiped down with that blanket, it is a huge indication that a family member was involved. NO intruder, even one who knew the family, could know that there was a duvet from JAR's dorm room in that suitcase. NONE. NO intruder would take the time to search the basement for something to wipe the blood from her pubic area and thighs. Nor would an intruder CARE whether anyone saw her that way. But a parent WOULD NOT want the blood in such an area to be seen because it pointed right to a sexual assault. And THAT is what they were trying to hide. And that is also something an intruder would not care about hiding.
I, too, am curious why Kolar or Thomas never mentioned this. This is a big red arrow pointing to family involvement.

 

[cynic]

Thank you DeeDee.

I'll go back AGAIN to one and only one trustful source - BPD Lead Investigator Steve Thomas - about these duvet fibers.



Please correct me if I'm wrong but here how I understand the above information. (The comments in italic blue under *** are IMO)

- CBI came to conclusion that fibers from duvet and fibers found on JB shirt are match (in 'consistent' with each other);

- ST heard that RST camp (Lou Smith and Deputy DA DeMuth) was referring to these CBI findings...but he never heard BPD (BPD Detective Trujillo) explanation or concerns about. **** In another word, BPD is OK with CBI findings, has no concerns. ;

- FBI have CBI report and had review it's findings. Does FBI not agree with CBI findings? According to ST, he never heard about disagreement. ***** During deposition, ST has pressured to acknowledge any inconsistancy or validity or disagreement among BPD and DA and even FBI in regards of CBI findings...but ST didn't hear any issues against CBI findings...not from BPD not from FBI...

So, if my understanding is correct then I cannot see why anyone could have doubt in validity of CBI findings. In another word, forensic connection between duvet and JB shirt exist. Hence, duvet has connection with murder!

You'll probably ask: why we never read about these fibers in PMPT, ST or Kolar books?...why this particular evidence has kept under such a quiet cover?...IDK, but somehow I feel (speculating!) that there is more to the story (on the duvet!) than we (the public) have privy to know.

jmo

Q. And CBI had at one point come up with a conclusion that there was a consistency between fibers found on a blanket in the suitcase that matched fibers on JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is that the right term?
A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever offer a report or an explanation concerning that.
Q. But the FBI disagreed with the CBI, didn't they?
Steve Thomas Deposition (Wolf civil case)

Q. Was the conflict between the CBI report and the FBI report with respect to those fibers, the fibers that are described here found on the front and back of JonBenet's shirt, on her body in the vaginal area, the duct tape on her mouth, and the hand ligature, to your knowledge, was that conflict ever resolved while you were involved in the investigation?
A. No.
Lou Smit Deposition (Wolf civil case)

FBI analysis: FBI examiners said the fibers on JonBenet came from a source other than the pillow sham and comforter
Rocky Mountain News, May 4, 2001

 

[OpenMind4U]

Q. And CBI had at one point come up with a conclusion that there was a consistency between fibers found on a blanket in the suitcase that matched fibers on JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is that the right term?
A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever offer a report or an explanation concerning that.
Q. But the FBI disagreed with the CBI, didn't they?
Steve Thomas Deposition (Wolf civil case)

Q. Was the conflict between the CBI report and the FBI report with respect to those fibers, the fibers that are described here found on the front and back of JonBenet's shirt, on her body in the vaginal area, the duct tape on her mouth, and the hand ligature, to your knowledge, was that conflict ever resolved while you were involved in the investigation?
A. No.
Lou Smit Deposition (Wolf civil case)

FBI analysis: FBI examiners said the fibers on JonBenet came from a source other than the pillow sham and comforter
Rocky Mountain News, May 4, 2001

WOW, WOW, WOW!!!!!!!....Thank you cynic...no, wait a minute...something is wrong here...see BBM in red...we're solving issue of duvet fibers but opening another one about FIBERS ON BOTH SIDES of her shirt and HAND LIGATURE!??...

Something is not kosher here...FBI examiners said to WHOM?...Does conflict was resolved?.....

OK. I need break...this case is mystery at every angle, at every step...:banghead:

Good night, cynic....good night, friends...

 

[Magdalyn]

I don't mean to keep beating this same old dead horse (yes I do! :deadhorse: ), but I'm having a hard time believing that a woman who admittedly got in a little tiff with JBR before the party about wearing a matchy-matchy with mom Christmas outfit is going to just "throw a couple of things in plastic bags" before they jet off to their palatial Michigan home, in winter, for a few days.

"Throw a couple of things in a Sampsonite suitcase" I'd believe. I think that suitcase would fit clothing for two adults and two children for two days, yes?

What was all this stuff she was allegedly getting ready for the trip the night before, after they got home from the party? Organizing 4 toothbrushes and clothing for 4 into 1 plastic bag? :waitasec:

ST: Were you going to finish the Charlevoix packing the morning of the 26th when you got up?
PR: Uh, yeah, I mean, throw in toothbrushes and last minute kind of stuff, you know. Uh
ST: And were the . . .
PR: . . .stuff in the car, you know, packages.
ST: And I came into this investigation a couple of days after the fact um, and I did not spend a great deal of time in the 15th Street home um, but what suitcases specifically were going on the Charlevoix Disney trip. Were they the suitcases that were on the bed in John Andrew’s room.
PR: No, we were suppose to come back from the lake before we went to Disney boat trip. So I just had a few little things in a plastic bag as I recall that I was going to take to the lake cause we were only going to be there, I don’t know, a couple of days or something. And then I was coming back and then the suitcases were packed to go. We were coming back to here and then going from Denver to Florida so. Now what was your question?
ST: Were the suitcases, were going to leave the 15th Street home and go to Charlevoix I’m assuming
PR: I don’t . . .
ST: . . .and stop me if I’m wrong . . .
PR: . . .know if any suitcases were going just this, I had a plastic bag and some shopping bag and some shopping bags with presents and stuff. I mean, we were flying our own plane, so we don’t rally, you know, pack real, you can just kind of throw stuff in there, you know.
ST: And did those, did that packing include clothing or do you have clothes at Charlevoix.
PR: Well, I think it included some clothes, because most of the clothes up there are summer shorts and T-shirts and stuff like that, but, you know, but it wasn’t a lot and the suitcases wee packed to go to Florida. So, I didn’t have any, I wasn’t going to take, I don’t think I was going to take a suitcase to Charlevoix.http://www.acandyrose.com/s-john-andrew-ramsey.htm

And what's this "I don't think I was going to take a suitcase..."

At T minus 8 hours before you're leaving, I'd think you'd kind of know what your final packing decision was going to be.... Since you were actually in the process of packing, allegedly. Plastic bag or suitcase?

Jonbenet asleep or awake?

Burke asleep or awake?

:banghead: ARGH!!!!!!!

 

[UKGuy]

I don't mean to keep beating this same old dead horse (yes I do! :deadhorse: ), but I'm having a hard time believing that a woman who admittedly got in a little tiff with JBR before the party about wearing a matchy-matchy with mom Christmas outfit is going to just "throw a couple of things in plastic bags" before they jet off to their palatial Michigan home, in winter, for a few days.

"Throw a couple of things in a Sampsonite suitcase" I'd believe. I think that suitcase would fit clothing for two adults and two children for two days, yes?

What was all this stuff she was allegedly getting ready for the trip the night before, after they got home from the party? Organizing 4 toothbrushes and clothing for 4 into 1 plastic bag? :waitasec:

ST: Were you going to finish the Charlevoix packing the morning of the 26th when you got up?
PR: Uh, yeah, I mean, throw in toothbrushes and last minute kind of stuff, you know. Uh
ST: And were the . . .
PR: . . .stuff in the car, you know, packages.
ST: And I came into this investigation a couple of days after the fact um, and I did not spend a great deal of time in the 15th Street home um, but what suitcases specifically were going on the Charlevoix Disney trip. Were they the suitcases that were on the bed in John Andrew’s room.
PR: No, we were suppose to come back from the lake before we went to Disney boat trip. So I just had a few little things in a plastic bag as I recall that I was going to take to the lake cause we were only going to be there, I don’t know, a couple of days or something. And then I was coming back and then the suitcases were packed to go. We were coming back to here and then going from Denver to Florida so. Now what was your question?
ST: Were the suitcases, were going to leave the 15th Street home and go to Charlevoix I’m assuming
PR: I don’t . . .
ST: . . .and stop me if I’m wrong . . .
PR: . . .know if any suitcases were going just this, I had a plastic bag and some shopping bag and some shopping bags with presents and stuff. I mean, we were flying our own plane, so we don’t rally, you know, pack real, you can just kind of throw stuff in there, you know.
ST: And did those, did that packing include clothing or do you have clothes at Charlevoix.
PR: Well, I think it included some clothes, because most of the clothes up there are summer shorts and T-shirts and stuff like that, but, you know, but it wasn’t a lot and the suitcases wee packed to go to Florida. So, I didn’t have any, I wasn’t going to take, I don’t think I was going to take a suitcase to Charlevoix.http://www.acandyrose.com/s-john-andrew-ramsey.htm

And what's this "I don't think I was going to take a suitcase..."

At T minus 8 hours before you're leaving, I'd think you'd kind of know what your final packing decision was going to be.... Since you were actually in the process of packing, allegedly. Plastic bag or suitcase?

Jonbenet asleep or awake?

Burke asleep or awake?

:banghead: ARGH!!!!!!!

Magdalyn,
Patsy was always like this, forgetting or agreeing in both the negative and positive.

PR: . . .know if any suitcases were going just this, I had a plastic bag and some shopping bag and some shopping bags with presents and stuff.

Patsy distances herself from the suitcases immediately, always a red-flag.


You can work out what Patsy does not wish to discuss though:

This is interesting:

ST: And I came into this investigation a couple of days after the fact um, and I did not spend a great deal of time in the 15th Street home um, but what suitcases specifically were going on the Charlevoix Disney trip. Were they the suitcases that were on the bed in John Andrew’s room.

Suitcases, get that! And we have JR saying he put one down in the basement?

Definitely something going on here, like trying out the suitcases for size?


.

 

[Magdalyn]

Magdalyn,
Patsy was always like this, forgetting or agreeing in both the negative and positive.

Patsy distances herself from the suitcases immediately, always a red-flag.


You can work out what Patsy does not wish to discuss though:

This is interesting:

Suitcases, get that! And we have JR saying he put one down in the basement?

Definitely something going on here, like trying out the suitcases for size?


.

Right. So she did have suitcases out, plural, in JAR's room.

And we're to believe she's so organized she was PRE packing for the Disney trip (even though they'd be returning home before leaving for FL)....but also so disorganized/ so que sera sera, she's just now tossing clothing, etc in a plastic bag for a trip 8 hours prior to departure.

And John put one suitcase in the basement. What else did they put in the basement?

Reading between the lines of what Patsy says and doesn't say on that interview, I think that suitcases were out, packing was going to be done, packing didn't get done, (except the gathering of purchases still in plastic bags), other things ended up taking precedence, John took a suitcase down to the basement after those things happened, and the staging, RN writing, wiping fingerprints and cleaning took the rest of the night so that's why I'm still wearing my dang party clothes and still not packed for Michigan!

 

[Nom de plume]

Right. So she did have suitcases out, plural, in JAR's room.

And we're to believe she's so organized she was PRE packing for the Disney trip (even though they'd be returning home before leaving for FL)....but also so disorganized/ so que sera sera, she's just now tossing clothing, etc in a plastic bag for a trip 8 hours prior to departure.

And John put one suitcase in the basement. What else did they put in the basement?

Reading between the lines of what Patsy says and doesn't say on that interview, I think that suitcases were out, packing was going to be done, packing didn't get done, (except the gathering of purchases still in plastic bags), other things ended up taking precedence, John took a suitcase down to the basement after those things happened, and the staging, RN writing, wiping fingerprints and cleaning took the rest of the night so that's why I'm still wearing my dang party clothes and still not packed for Michigan!

BBM JonBenet :furious:

 

[UKGuy]

Right. So she did have suitcases out, plural, in JAR's room.

And we're to believe she's so organized she was PRE packing for the Disney trip (even though they'd be returning home before leaving for FL)....but also so disorganized/ so que sera sera, she's just now tossing clothing, etc in a plastic bag for a trip 8 hours prior to departure.

And John put one suitcase in the basement. What else did they put in the basement?

Reading between the lines of what Patsy says and doesn't say on that interview, I think that suitcases were out, packing was going to be done, packing didn't get done, (except the gathering of purchases still in plastic bags), other things ended up taking precedence, John took a suitcase down to the basement after those things happened, and the staging, RN writing, wiping fingerprints and cleaning took the rest of the night so that's why I'm still wearing my dang party clothes and still not packed for Michigan!

Magdalyn,
All rings true. Suitcases lying redundant on the spare bed, Patsy not dressed, rambling on about how Millionares' Wives just love to travel lite, with plastic bags in tow. LOL, tell that to Paris Hilton, she missed that fashion tip!


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Magdalyn,
All rings true. Suitcases lying redundant on the spare bed, Patsy not dressed, rambling on about how Millionares' Wives just love to travel lite, with plastic bags in tow. LOL, tell that to Paris Hilton, she missed that fashion tip!


.

Make of this what you will, but I have read that they often used plastic bags to pack clothes when they went on the private plane to save weight. I know that in those small planes, every ounce counts and those hard-sided suitcases are very heavy, even when empty. I believe I saw either JR or Patsy say this somewhere, so the use of the plastic bags DOES make sense. It needn't have been suspicious. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
They were also planning a SECOND trip immediately after the trip to Charlevoix. They were going on a Disney cruise (the Big Red Boat) where they would also celebrate Patsy's 40th birthday. The suitcases were probably packed for THAT trip because there wasn't time to do it when they returned from Charlevoix.

 

[Magdalyn]

Make of this what you will, but I have read that they often used plastic bags to pack clothes when they went on the private plane to save weight. I know that in those small planes, every ounce counts and those hard-sided suitcases are very heavy, even when empty. I believe I saw either JR or Patsy say this somewhere, so the use of the plastic bags DOES make sense. It needn't have been suspicious. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
They were also planning a SECOND trip immediately after the trip to Charlevoix. They were going on a Disney cruise (the Big Red Boat) where they would also celebrate Patsy's 40th birthday. The suitcases were probably packed for THAT trip because there wasn't time to do it when they returned from Charlevoix.

I see what you're saying, and you may be right. But if that were truly the case (IMO), why didn't Patsy say in this interview, "We never pack suitcases when we fly on the private plane, we always just take plastic bags. Have to make weight!" Easy enough to say in this interview, early on, especially if it's the rule and it's true.

In this interview, she implied she doesn't KNOW whether they were going to use a suitcase/suitcases or not, she THINKS she was just throwing stuff in a plastic bag. But she's not sure. :waitasec:

(snipped for focus from previous posts)

PR: I don’t . . .

PR: . . .know if any suitcases were going just this, I had a plastic bag and some shopping bag and some shopping bags with presents and stuff. I mean, we were flying our own plane, so we don’t rally, you know, pack real, you can just kind of throw stuff in there, you know.

PR: So, I didn’t have any, I wasn’t going to take, I don’t think I was going to take a suitcase to Charlevoix.

I agree sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but who the heck doesn't know whether they were going to pack a suitcase or not? She said she was getting ready for the trip when they got home for the party and, if her story is to be believed, woke up just about an hour before they were to leave. She either had them packed up in suitcases or she didn't. How, days later, does she not KNOW the answer? Her evasive non-commital answer, to me, is a red flag. :twocents: