The Water Tanks

[chellebelle71]

did you try the roof access Door at the top of the staircase ( 15th floor)?...

opening from inside the hotel......

That is how we got onto the roof. It was not locked or even able to latch closed properly.

 

[RhiannonR]

The Cecil is currently bank-owned and incredibly mismanaged. This explains why everything is still unlocked and nonfunctioning. What a nightmare!

 

[findinganatta]

That is how we got onto the roof. It was not locked or even able to latch closed properly.

A ton of the original theorizing about this case centered on this 'how did she get onto the roof' topic, and information like this really shifts that discourse.

However, as interesting as it is, unfortunately it doesn't help narrow down is whether foul play was involved or wasn't. Because it would have made all scenarios easier and more possible: it's easier to carry a body out this way AND it's easier for a wandering, possibly-delusional girl to find her way up this way. (Of course there was always the theory of foul play happening on the roof, but anyway...)

There have been sources claiming and theorizing that this door was unlocked and the alarm non-functional, but you're the first to directly confirm it on this board, as far as I've seen. I believe the news reports specifically stated that this door would NOT have allowed access to the roof for a normal person, and now we're seeing that it was probably another BS report. Either hotel representation was just making assumptions when talking to the media, or they were intentionally lying, or a media outlet published incorrect info and others ran with it (extremely common phenomenon).

 

[chellebelle71]

The media got it wrong a few times, here is a quick summary of those I encountered-

-

• there was no lock on the emergency exit/roof access door
• the fire alarm did not go off upon open the emergency exit/roof access door
• there was no lock on one of the two 14th floor window fire escapes
• security did not stop us at any time
  
  The one thing they did get right is that the hatch for the water tank was padlocked. Feel free to ask any other questions regarding the property itself. I forgot to mention that I searched for blood stains around the windows, ladders and doors leading to the roof and tank but came up with nothing visible. I forgot my UV light at home though, so a second trip may be in the works.
  

 

[Conductor71]

The media got it wrong a few times, here is a quick summary of those I encountered-

-

• there was no lock on the emergency exit/roof access door
• the fire alarm did not go off upon open the emergency exit/roof access door
• there was no lock on one of the two 14th floor window fire escapes
• security did not stop us at any time
  
  The one thing they did get right is that the hatch for the water tank was padlocked. Feel free to ask any other questions regarding the property itself. I forgot to mention that I searched for blood stains around the windows, ladders and doors leading to the roof and tank but came up with nothing visible. I forgot my UV light at home though, so a second trip may be in the works.
  

Actually, just to clarify...the Canadian media did get it right. The Vancouver Sun interviewed the LAFD and reported that according to fire code the door cannot be locked from the inside. However, an alarm should sound if opened and there is a control key to set or unset the alarm.

What is interesting is that the door should lock from the outside. I wonder if that is why the door was propped open. What did you experience? Were you able to open it or was it propped open whenever you went to the roof?

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2013/02/20/la-mystery-deepens-hotel-rooftop-where-body-found-had-an-alarm

It is odd that no Angelino reporters even bothered to ask the LAFD about the code. I saw a few public comments informing people of the code, but why would they not correct the details?

 

[chellebelle71]

Actually, just to clarify...the Canadian media did get it right.

What is interesting is that the door should lock from the outside. I wonder if that is why the door was propped open. What did you experience? Were you able to open it or was it propped open whenever you went to the roof?

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2013/02/20/la-mystery-deepens-hotel-rooftop-where-body-found-had-an-alarm

It is odd that no Angelino reporters even bothered to ask the LAFD about the code. I saw a few public comments informing people of the code, but why would they not correct the details?

Sorry about that! I guess I didn't see those Canadian media reports. Anyways, the door didn't fully latch closed so it didn't need to be propped open in order to avoid being locked out. The double doors near the tank were locked and I didn't try the door at the top of the red stairs. Random doors within the hotel itself were unlocked, such as supply closets, all restrooms/showers and open elevator access.

 

[December]

What does the latch to the tank lids look like? I cannot tell from photos. Do they look as if they might require a tool to open? Someone I read somewhere (not here) said such tanks have hatches that require a tool to open. Which sort of makes sense as they are supposed to be sealed to protect the water, thus you must close the lid tightly to preserve the seal. However, these tanks may not follow that person's experience or may have been modified or whatever else.

Also, to ChelleBelle, did all of the newly padlocked tank hatches look to be of the same design? Or were there perhaps small differences between them (besides the obviously seen extra pipes on top of the one). I wouldn't be surprised if, in such an old building, if there have been a lot of changes over the years.

Apparently, only L.A. reporters do not realize that people are running all over the freaking roof of this hotel and have been for years! Someone will probably find their grandpa's diary which tells about how he and his chums liked to go up to the roof of Hotel Cecil and have a few cold ones back during the Great Depression.

This is why I think it's pretty interesting the same guy has supervised maintenance there for 30 years. This place doesn't sound like a nice place even circa 30 years ago. And these days, we see he can't even appoint someone to replace the 9 volt battery on the door alarm? Of course, it's possible he does, and someone within the hotel disables it. But still.

 

[Userid]

What does the latch to the tank lids look like? I cannot tell from photos. Do they look as if they might require a tool to open? Someone I read somewhere (not here) said such tanks have hatches that require a tool to open. Which sort of makes sense as they are supposed to be sealed to protect the water, thus you must close the lid tightly to preserve the seal. However, these tanks may not follow that person's experience or may have been modified or whatever else.

Also, to ChelleBelle, did all of the newly padlocked tank hatches look to be of the same design? Or were there perhaps small differences between them (besides the obviously seen extra pipes on top of the one). I wouldn't be surprised if, in such an old building, if there have been a lot of changes over the years.

Apparently, only L.A. reporters do not realize that people are running all over the freaking roof of this hotel and have been for years! Someone will probably find their grandpa's diary which tells about how he and his chums liked to go up to the roof of Hotel Cecil and have a few cold ones back during the Great Depression.

This is why I think it's pretty interesting the same guy has supervised maintenance there for 30 years. This place doesn't sound like a nice place even circa 30 years ago. And these days, we see he can't even appoint someone to replace the 9 volt battery on the door alarm? Of course, it's possible he does, and someone within the hotel disables it. But still.

From what I recall, the lids on those specific tanks were very unlocked from the top. Padlocks were then placed after the incident only. The lids were somewhat flimsy: very easy to open from the outside. It was even speculated that, if she hadn't closed the lid herself when she entered the tank, the lid was so light that a gust of wind could've closed it after she entered.

The lid, just like the "alarmed" door to the roof, was shoddy -- like everything at that place.

 

[December]

I looked at ChelleBelle71's photos of the tank lids. I know the padlocks are a new addition. I can see a handle on top, but I can't tell from the photos if all one has to do is just pull up on the handle to open the tank (before the padlocks meaning the way Elisa found it).

One person did speculate a gust of wind could blow the lids closed, but that was from looking at a photo. They may be right, but maybe not. The tanks do have to be cleaned sometimes, so a person must be able to access the tanks without risking death. So, the lids could be heavier than they look, or the hinges could be stiff. I don't know though. Maybe the lids do close all too easily and if you're cleaning one, you know to rig a method to prevent them from closing while you're inside.

I wonder how cold the water was inside the tanks.

 

[Userid]

I looked at ChelleBelle71's photos of the tank lids. I know the padlocks are a new addition. I can see a handle on top, but I can't tell from the photos if all one has to do is just pull up on the handle to open the tank (before the padlocks meaning the way Elisa found it).

One person did speculate a gust of wind could blow the lids closed, but that was from looking at a photo. They may be right, but maybe not. The tanks do have to be cleaned sometimes, so a person must be able to access the tanks without risking death. So, the lids could be heavier than they look, or the hinges could be stiff. I don't know though. Maybe the lids do close all too easily and if you're cleaning one, you know to rig a method to prevent them from closing while you're inside.

I wonder how cold the water was inside the tanks.

Good point -- I never thought of that factor in the slightest.

 

[December]

Userid, I read that if the water was 32.5F than she could have died in 15 minutes no matter how she got into the tank or what her swimming abilities. The cold water makes a person lose dexterity within a couple of minutes. The page where I found it isn't about Elisa. It's about drowning. They are talking about falling off a boat though. There is a handy table if you scroll down a bit.

http://www.shipwrite.bc.ca/Chilling_truth.htm

 

[December]

I just realized, the fireman has the hatch totally off Elisa's tank. As if that is how one opens it. One takes the lid OFF. There aren't any hinges I can see on HER tank. I could be wrong about this, of course.

I will not really be satisified unless I see this tank with my own eyes or someone else without a vested interest (not employed by the hotel, not employed by the city, not a reporter) goes and looks. Yes, I guess I am saying I would believe a random video over those sources if the person making the video had NO reason to misrepresent what they saw. Reporters are usually getting their info from the first two. The spokesperson for the hotel probably has no more been on that roof than I have. Employees of the city have obviously been told to keep mum because there aren't a lot of leaks.

If you could talk to the lead detective on the case, he might truthfully share what he knows about the hatch. But, he can't talk to every person on the internets.

 

[December]

O.K., I did find somewhere near the end of the fourth thread, the police say the cover was on the tank. I was at the doctor's office so I didn't note exactly the post #, but it was an official statement by the LAPD that the cover was on the tank.

 

[Userid]

^ Yes, December -- the lid was on top when the body was found; it was specified on the autopsy report that 2Hip2BeSquare and others possess. 2Hip summarized the report beautifully somewhere, but I can't remember which thread (I wish we can get a separate thread with just that summation -- it was very good, even though she/he didn't include everything).

I'm really intrigued by the lid and I love how you bought up how you thought it wasn't attached. I found the photo you were referring to, but in my opinion, I'm not satisfied by that photo that it wasn't attached. I'm not satisfied for the following reasons:

If the hatch on Elisa's tank was indeed different than the hatch of the tank in front of it, it would mean that it was a top cover. Since the edges of the opening clearly aren't bevelled, that would mean that the top cover would've had to be bigger in circumference and fit around the edges of the opening. To me, if it was an unattached top cover, the opening would've had to have bevelled edges to fit a top cover, ensuring that it wouldn't blow away. It just seems odd that it would the other kind of top-cover, considering LA has earthquakes and storms, that could easily dislodge a cover like that.

It also seems sorta tough to believe that the manufacturer of those water tanks would make a particular tank with a different lid (compared to its sister tank in front, which does have an attaching lid). It seems more likely that they would manufacture the same exact lid for the same exact tank across the board, which would ease the process of the mass manufacturing and costs of those particular tanks.

Does anyone have a picture of the new, locked lids?

 

[December]

^ Yes, December -- the lid was on top when the body was found; it was specified on the autopsy report that 2Hip2BeSquare and others possess. 2Hip summarized the report beautifully somewhere, but I can't remember which thread (I wish we can get a separate thread with just that summation -- it was very good, even though she/he didn't include everything).

I'm really intrigued by the lid and I love how you bought up how you thought it wasn't attached. I found the photo you were referring to, but in my opinion, I'm not satisfied by that photo that it wasn't attached. I'm not satisfied for the following reasons:

If the hatch on Elisa's tank was indeed different than the hatch of the tank in front of it, it would mean that it was a top cover. Since the edges of the opening clearly aren't bevelled, that would mean that the top cover would've had to be bigger in circumference and fit around the edges of the opening. To me, if it was an unattached top cover, the opening would've had to have bevelled edges to fit a top cover, ensuring that it wouldn't blow away. It just seems odd that it would the other kind of top-cover, considering LA has earthquakes and storms, that could easily dislodge a cover like that.

I agree it had to be firmly attached to the tank, no matter how that would be achieved.

And I could be wrong about this. I have not seen a lot of lids for things like these tanks up close and personal. I have seen hatches on tanks, but the tank Elisa was in had a hatch nothing like those.

I suppose the only way to KNOW about that lid is for someone who actually operated it (a maintenance worker at the hotel or a police/fireman involved in the recovery) to speak about exactly what it looks like and how it operates. As in that specific tank. But, I doubt that will ever happen because the tank has changed now since they added padlocks. They may well have needed to replace that lid for various reasons that may or may not be related to the event/the investigation. Such as I imagine the LAPD took the lid just to check, but I don't know that they did for certain.

A maintenance worker would be forbidden to speak about it. And the LAPD and LAFD might not want to go on and on about the hatch. So, IDK...

I had just wondered about the hatch and found a specific statement and now there are two statements so we know it was definitely closed. But, I believe there was a water test somewhere along the line before the 19th, so it would've been used at that time I would think.

 

[December]

I did read the hotel is in BIG trouble for not having locks on these tanks all along since they contain drinking water and there are ordinances and such. I don't know for sure about that, but if so, GOOD! Even if there had never been this case, the fact until very recently the hatches could be opened by anyone at all is unsafe. It is a shame it took a death to make the hotel spring for four padlocks.

 

[Userid]

Okay, I've found a great picture of the sister tank to Elisa's clearly showing the hinge (I've magnified the image; I hope it's still magnified, but you may have to magnify it yourself -- you should be able to de-magnify it as well by simpling waving your mouse over the picture and clicking): http://i.imgur.com/YmsQJqK.jpg

Now, to me, that hinge would be something akin to this: http://www.sdproducts.com/files/Images/Hinge Images/Clevis-Hinge-swage-Counter-Sunk-S&D-Products.gif

December, this would explain why we couldn't tell if there was an attachment in the other photo you referred to (http://i.imgur.com/5YyXSPI.jpg). In this overhead photo, you can't see the sides of the top of the opening; nor the side(s) of the lid -- only they would tell us if there was an attachment, in that the holes of the screws would've been located there and only there.

There's no real reason for me personally to believe that the opening was not attached just like how its sister tank lid was -- and that the police most likely just removed the lid completely when they were recovering the body. Of course, we'll never know definitively, since we weren't there. I wonder if the police report would contain such details.

 

[December]

Userid, so you're saying the hinges are under the beveled edge? Yes, that is possible.

 

[Userid]

Userid, so you're saying the hinges are under the beveled edge? Yes, that is possible.

No -- there are no beveled edges (at least from what I can see). I'm saying the hinge is the type you'd screw into one of the sides of the opening, in that raised gray/steel border you see around the hole that's raised from the blue surface of the top of the tank in this photo. http://i.imgur.com/5YyXSPI.jpg

The other side of the hinge would be screwed in one of the sides of the lid.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[December]

Userid, I sort of see what you mean... it's just along one of the edges we can's see... underneath?

I think it is possible.

I don't know exactly what type of hinge would be on something like that. I just thought it'd show because I thought it'd have to be kind of a heavy duty type of hinge. Not really like the one you used a photo of, but I have to say that I do not really know.

Since the lid isn't taken off very frequently, maybe it is a different type of thing than what I am thinking. The main thing is there ought to be a way to make sure it will not accidentally close. Since people might conceivably need to go into the tanks and the tanks are located somewhere relatively remote, you wouldn't want them randomly closing on people.

BUT, many things at this hotel seem to not be quite up to scratch and maybe if you are maintenance there, you know you're on your own if an accident happens so you take pains to prevent it beforehand.

Or maybe it can be lifted UP or lifted OFF, depending up on what you want to do with the thing. I think that is another possibility. Maybe I will go look some hingey kind of place to see if I can find a photo of what I mean. This would take two seconds if my father was still alive because he knew all sorts of things like this and could probably draw me a picture of what it would look like. But, I will see what I can find...