The Wine Cellar

[madeleine]

and according to ST,Patsy told one of the first officers at the scene that JB was put to bed wearing a red turtleneck that night

 

[madeleine]

I'm just tossing this one in. Does anyone have any thoughts as to why the remaining clean size-12's were removed or hidden?


.

no,it was not a clever idea to get rid of them.putting them in her drawer along with JB's other pairs would have confirmed their story(no big deal that she had them on,she picked a pair from the drawer).but i guess they didn't think someone will notice she was wiped off and redressed.dunno why they thought it's better to get rid of them,can't find a logical reason for it and it seems this only got them in trouble.

 

[UKGuy]

no,it was not a clever idea to get rid of them.putting them in her drawer along with JB's other pairs would have confirmed their story(no big deal that she had them on,she picked a pair from the drawer).but i guess they didn't think someone will notice she was wiped off and redressed.dunno why they thought it's better to get rid of them,can't find a logical reason for it and it seems this only got them in trouble.

madeleine,

Curious is it not? Possibly it was a detail they never ever thought might come back and bite them.

Would Patsy just sit there and lie through her teeth about the size-12's, knowing full well, nearly everyhing she says can be denied, simply by opening JonBenet's underwear drawer and observing : no size-12's!

Patsy would have no forensic need to remove the size-12's, her fingerprints on the plastic casing would be unremarkable. This seems, to me, the most likely reason for removing them. That is the person who redressed JonBenet left their fingerprints or dna on the packaging?

I reckon there was three stages to the staging:

1. Some clothing removed and JonBenet moved.

2. JonBenet redressed in the pink nightgown to simulate a bedtime sexual assault.

3. JonBenet redressed in the longjohns and size-2's to simulate a kidnap scenario.

I guess Patsy is ignorant about some details regarding stage 3. because she was busy writing the ransom note? So she makes it up, as she goes along, regarding the size-12's.


Looks like its a safe bet that either John or Burke is responsible for dressing JonBenet in those size-12's?


.

 

[Whaleshark]

"Looks like its a safe bet that either John or Burke is responsible for dressing JonBenet in those size-12's?"

...what if they were in one of the wrapped pkgs that were in the wine cellar, maybe. Patsy said she did all the wrapping down there, & kept the gifts in there. Did it ever get confirmed what was in that partially wrapped pkg? Maybe that package was partially unwrapped because she (or someone) looked in it for the underwear. It would be obvious that an intruder would not know that underwear were wrapped as a gift down there. I mean, if you were upstairs and dressing and/or redressing JB, and the underwear drawer is full of underwear, you're going to choose from there. If there were size 12 mixed in there, and you chose one size 12 from there (no matter who chose them), you're not going to remove all the other size 12's from the drawer for whatever reason. If the pkg. is up there and new and unopened, even though she has a drawer full of size 4 and 6 underwear, you're not going to open the size 12's, no matter who you are either. Perhaps the size 12's were still going to be given as a gift, and were wrapped, and down there in the cellar with the wrapped gifts, and someone had to know that they were there, and needed them at that time, and that's why they also had to disappear?

Once they admitted the undies were at the house, they had to come up with the rest of them as has been debated previously...came up with them months and months later, or a year later, right? Found somewhere in some crate or whatever? No, if they had been available to JB in the drawer, the rest would have been found somewhere: same drawer as the others, washing machine, dirty clothes, etc.

But someone had to know where to find them in the first place.

 

[UKGuy]

"Looks like its a safe bet that either John or Burke is responsible for dressing JonBenet in those size-12's?"

...what if they were in one of the wrapped pkgs that were in the wine cellar, maybe. Patsy said she did all the wrapping down there, & kept the gifts in there. Did it ever get confirmed what was in that partially wrapped pkg? Maybe that package was partially unwrapped because she (or someone) looked in it for the underwear. It would be obvious that an intruder would not know that underwear were wrapped as a gift down there. I mean, if you were upstairs and dressing and/or redressing JB, and the underwear drawer is full of underwear, you're going to choose from there. If there were size 12 mixed in there, and you chose one size 12 from there (no matter who chose them), you're not going to remove all the other size 12's from the drawer for whatever reason. If the pkg. is up there and new and unopened, even though she has a drawer full of size 4 and 6 underwear, you're not going to open the size 12's, no matter who you are either. Perhaps the size 12's were still going to be given as a gift, and were wrapped, and down there in the cellar with the wrapped gifts, and someone had to know that they were there, and needed them at that time, and that's why they also had to disappear?

Once they admitted the undies were at the house, they had to come up with the rest of them as has been debated previously...came up with them months and months later, or a year later, right? Found somewhere in some crate or whatever? No, if they had been available to JB in the drawer, the rest would have been found somewhere: same drawer as the others, washing machine, dirty clothes, etc.

But someone had to know where to find them in the first place.

Whaleshark,

But someone had to know where to find them in the first place.

They may not have been in the basement, from memory Patsy stated she had already opened the size-12's, they may have been located elsewhere in the house, say in one of JonBenet's drawers, unopened. Did LHP not say words to this effect? Otherwise they could have been in one of Patsy's drawers awaiting her attention. e.g. her bedroom dresser?

Another aspect is where Patsy states she opened the gift packages one by one. Now why would she need to do this, it was her that purchased them?

There is obviously something important about the size-12's that we are missing. Its so important that the Ramsey's via Lin Wood returned six-pairs claiming that they were found in an unopened packing crate.


.

 

[madeleine]

guys,do you have more on this?the R's returning the 12 size pack?
and was it unopened?i thought they returned the remaining set?(5 pairs,the other one being the one JB was found in?):waitasec:
i am confused,help

 

[madeleine]

she said in her LE interview that she put the 12 size pack in JB's drawer because JB liked them but LE didn't find any 12 sized panties in JB's drawer.clear so far.
how on earth did the R's find the pack then in an unopened packing crate?
ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
why hand the pack over to LE anyway?
this just doesn't make sense to me
what is it about this panties!?

 

[Agatha_C]

"Looks like its a safe bet that either John or Burke is responsible for dressing JonBenet in those size-12's?"

...what if they were in one of the wrapped pkgs that were in the wine cellar, maybe. Patsy said she did all the wrapping down there, & kept the gifts in there. Did it ever get confirmed what was in that partially wrapped pkg? Maybe that package was partially unwrapped because she (or someone) looked in it for the underwear. It would be obvious that an intruder would not know that underwear were wrapped as a gift down there. I mean, if you were upstairs and dressing and/or redressing JB, and the underwear drawer is full of underwear, you're going to choose from there. If there were size 12 mixed in there, and you chose one size 12 from there (no matter who chose them), you're not going to remove all the other size 12's from the drawer for whatever reason. If the pkg. is up there and new and unopened, even though she has a drawer full of size 4 and 6 underwear, you're not going to open the size 12's, no matter who you are either. Perhaps the size 12's were still going to be given as a gift, and were wrapped, and down there in the cellar with the wrapped gifts, and someone had to know that they were there, and needed them at that time, and that's why they also had to disappear?

Once they admitted the undies were at the house, they had to come up with the rest of them as has been debated previously...came up with them months and months later, or a year later, right? Found somewhere in some crate or whatever? No, if they had been available to JB in the drawer, the rest would have been found somewhere: same drawer as the others, washing machine, dirty clothes, etc.

But someone had to know where to find them in the first place.

Its a popular theory on many of the JBR forums that someone opened the FAO Schwarz presents, looking for the panties. Which would seem to be Patsy as she was the one to wrap them, she would have been the one to know that they were there. Makes sense to me and has been part of my theory for some time now. Yet something bothers me about this line of thought, why open so many of the gifts, shouldnt she have known just about what that package would have felt like and looked like? I mean they are just panties, the package wouldnt have been very big and unless placed in a box, easily felt through the wrapping. But! what if she told JR that the panties were down there and wrapped, he wouldnt have been as fast to find them as PR would have been. He may have had to open several, until he found the right package. Then again, it would mean that Patsy knew he was putting the wrong size panties on JBR.

Another thing that bothers me is the FAO Schwarz wrapping paper. Patsy claims those gifts were wrapped and shipped by the toy store itself, so how then did the Bloomingdale's panties end up in FAO wrapping when Bloomingdales offers the same service?

Grrrrrrr! One question always leads to many many more (LOL) Its like a puzzle missing half of its pieces and I fear that we will never see the whole picture.

 

[pistolina]

I have always thought JonBenet being found in the wine cellar was the R’s “plan B”. And that “plan A” was to remove JonBenet from the house and bury her without anyone ever knowing what really happened to her. I think that is why there are so many contradictions between the R’s story and the crime scene. The she was sleep story, the ransom note, the red turtleneck story, not needing to remove the pineapple bowl from the table – those were all elements of “plan A”. If she was never found then we would only have the R’s version of what happened that night and there would be no evidence to contradict them.

I think the staged sexual assault was part of “plan B” to cover-up the prior sexual abuse – and “plan B” was for just in case the police found her hidden in the wine cellar. The strangulation happened because the wine cellar stager realized that the blow to the head hadn’t killed her when sexual assault caused her to bleed. I think the stager vomited when they realized she was still alive during the sexual assault and the vomit contaminated her original panties. The oversized bloomies were used because of their proximity to the staging (wrapped in a box for Jenny in the basement). The stager then added the “restraint” cords because I think that is what they thought a real rapist/kidnapper might do.

But IMO JR was too impatient on the morning of the 26th to let “plan A” play out and he decided to change to “plan B”. I think initially he thought that the police would come, take a report, wait for the call and then leave allowing the Rs to handle JonBenet disposal privately. But I think at some point JR realized the police were not going to leave, so he went to the wine cellar and moved her closer to the door – then he returned later and discovered her.

Sorry I didn’t mean for this post to turn into a theory but it was hard to find a stopping place once I got started.

 

[Agatha_C]

Whaleshark,

They may not have been in the basement, from memory Patsy stated she had already opened the size-12's, they may have been located elsewhere in the house, say in one of JonBenet's drawers, unopened. Did LHP not say words to this effect? Otherwise they could have been in one of Patsy's drawers awaiting her attention. e.g. her bedroom dresser?

Another aspect is where Patsy states she opened the gift packages one by one. Now why would she need to do this, it was her that purchased them?

There is obviously something important about the size-12's that we are missing. Its so important that the Ramsey's via Lin Wood returned six-pairs claiming that they were found in an unopened packing crate.


.

Bingo UK, those panties were never wrapped. The Bloomies having been wrapped leads to too many questions with answers that dont quite make sense.

Dang it UK, now you have my mind picking at the reason for the size 12s like a dog with a bone...LOL... Just what I needed, something else to haunt my days and nights.

What exactly is the significance of the size 12s?

 

[Agatha_C]

guys,do you have more on this?the R's returning the 12 size pack?
and was it unopened?i thought they returned the remaining set?(5 pairs,the other one being the one JB was found in?):waitasec:
i am confused,help

There are seven days in the week Maddy (Silly Bean) LOL! My understanding is that the package was opened and six pairs returned, JBR being in pair number 7 or technically she was found in day 4 of 7. LOL! You made me smile Maddy, thank you.

 

[UKGuy]

guys,do you have more on this?the R's returning the 12 size pack?
and was it unopened?i thought they returned the remaining set?(5 pairs,the other one being the one JB was found in?):waitasec:
i am confused,help

madeleine,

Plainly Patsy was simply making it up as she went along. Nobody can prove Patsy never placed those size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer.

BPD finding no size-12's anywhere in the house does not preclude an intruder removing them.

Except for some bizarre reason, the Ramsey's returned Bloomingdale size-12's via Lin Wood. Of course this means nothing since there is no verifiable chain of custody. So they are very important to the Ramsey's.

So we have Patsy stating she opened them and placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer, only for them to magically appear at a much later date in a packing crate. Obviously the R's are going to claim they were there all the time, and just never found.


So we know Patsy is lying about her account of the size-12's, the same will likely be true of her putting JonBenet to bed.



.

 

[madeleine]

lol yeah ,that was meant to be the remaining set of 6
but UKguy says they returned an UNOPENED package
is there a source for this?i remember reading about it somewhere (LW returning the pack) but i forgot where

 

[madeleine]

becuase i think it's very important whether they returned the remaining set (6 pairs) and where they said they found them or whether they returned an unopened pack (7 ) which doesn't prove anything

 

[Agatha_C]

lol yeah ,that was meant to be the remaining set of 6
but UKguy says they returned an UNOPENED package
is there a source for this?i remember reading about it somewhere (LW returning the pack) but i forgot where

Maddy, I'll see what I can find for you.

 

[UKGuy]

Bingo UK, those panties were never wrapped. The Bloomies having been wrapped leads to too many questions with answers that dont quite make sense.

Dang it UK, now you have my mind picking at the reason for the size 12s like a dog with a bone...LOL... Just what I needed, something else to haunt my days and nights.

What exactly is the significance of the size 12s?

Agatha_C,

Yes it would be nice to be able to resolve this issue.

It seems fair to assume the stager wanted someone to think that JonBenet was wearing Wednesday underwear when she was killed. Whether its significance lies in that JonBenet wore a size-6 Wednesday pair to the White's or this was the day she died? I reckon the large size is not a factor in their selection.

Its a safe bet that no size-6 Wednesday Day of The Week underwear was recovered from JonBenet's underwear drawer.

Someone went to the bother of selecting those size-12 Bloomingdales when there were other choices available in her drawer.

Whomever did the staging probably cleaned up by placing everything, including the size-12 Bloomingdales, into some container which was then smuggled out at a later date.


.

 

[Agatha_C]

Here you go Maddy, this is what I found so far....

Oversized Panties
JBR was found in a pair of size 12-14 panties not appropriate for her age; these were from a package of "day-of-the-week" panties that come 7 in a package.
Patsy Purchased Panties in November 1996. In her August 28, 2000 police interview, Patsy stated that she had purchased these panties for her niece, Jenny Davis (81:line 3).
Over-sized Underwear Placed in JBR Underwear Drawer. In the same interview, Bruce Levin asked: "Okay. What we are trying to understand is whether--we are trying to understand why she is wearing such a large pair of underpants. We are hoping you can help us if you have a recollection of it." Patsy responded: "I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on" (83:lines 21-25; 84: lines 1-3).
In the same interview, Jane Harmer asked: "Do you recall making a decision then not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet express an interest in them; therefore, you didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --" Patsy responded: "I can't say for sure. I mean, I think I bought them with the intention of sending them in a package of Christmas things to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that together, so I just put them in her, her panty drawer. So they were free game" (87:lines 3-12).
According to Internet poster (she who shall be nameless) "The package was left in the house when the police finished their investigation. Ramsey investigators took posession (sic) of the package." she also asserted: "The package was in her bedroom or bathroom - the police simply didn't understand how important it might be so left it." According to Internet poster Bluecrab: "My understanding is that the 12/14's were kept in the bedroom in their original packaging and had not been opened until the night of the murder."
When Was Package Turned Over to Boulder Investigators? Namelss One was not specific about timing, but claimed: "The package and panties, IMO, needed to be processed as evidence. I know it wasn't done when the BPD had the case." It was reported in mid-2003 that "investigators never even asked to see the other panties in the matching set her mother bought her (though the DA's office now has them, Wood says)." (Clay Evans, "We're Failing JonBenet" Boulder Daily Camera, June 15, 2003). It is not clear at what point in time this transfer to BPD would have been made, but presumably was sometime after the Boulder DA took over the case in late 2002 and June 2003. http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second-Floor

 

[UKGuy]

lol yeah ,that was meant to be the remaining set of 6
but UKguy says they returned an UNOPENED package
is there a source for this?i remember reading about it somewhere (LW returning the pack) but i forgot where

madeleine,
They could hardly be unopened if there was only 6-pairs returned. I forget the full details but the R's said they found them on some particular date then after waiting some unspecified period, notified LW who handed them over to the DA, was it Keenan?


.

 

[Agatha_C]

Agatha_C,

Yes it would be nice to be able to resolve this issue.

It seems fair to assume the stager wanted someone to think that JonBenet was wearing Wednesday underwear when she was killed. Whether its significance lies in that JonBenet wore a size-6 Wednesday pair to the White's or this was the day she died? I reckon the large size is not a factor in their selection.

Its a safe bet that no size-6 Wednesday Day of The Week underwear was recovered from JonBenet's underwear drawer.

Someone went to the bother of selecting those size-12 Bloomingdales when there were other choices available in her drawer.

Whomever did the staging probably cleaned up by placing everything, including the size-12 Bloomingdales, into some container which was then smuggled out at a later date.


.

Do you think its possible that JR put JBR in those panties hoping to put distance between them (the Rs) and the murder, as if to say see, she is in the wrong panties and we dont have others like them. Only PR didnt get that memo or forgot she read the memo? Maybe, he forgot to tell her that or could he have set her up with the panties? Hoping to shift focus and so he didnt give PR the memo at all.

 

[Whaleshark]

From http://http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second-Floor:
Over-sized Underwear Placed in JBR Underwear Drawer. In the same interview, Bruce Levin asked: "Okay. What we are trying to understand is whether--we are trying to understand why she is wearing such a large pair of underpants. We are hoping you can help us if you have a recollection of it."
Patsy responded: "I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on" (83:lines 21-25; 84: lines 1-3).

And From here http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

TT: So John carries JonBenet upstairs, puts her to bed. You pull up the bed sheets. You find this top for her to wear or you just. . .
PR: We just left her top on her.
TT: . . .you leave the top on. . .
PR: Yeah.
TT: . . .uh, find a pair of. . .
PR: bottoms.
TT: . . .bottoms for her to wear. Um, did she wake up at all during this?
PR: No.
TT: Stayed pretty crashed out?
PR: Uh huh.
TT: Okay. Sounds asleep the whole time then.
PR: Um hum.
TT: Okay. Sound asleep the whole time then?
PR: Um hum.
___

And...

PR: She had fallen asleep in the car.
TT: Did you have to wake her up to get her inside or. . .
PR: Well, she was just really zonked and John carried her up to her room.
TT: Okay.
PR: And I uh, you know, ran up behind him and, or in front of him, I can’t remember. maybe, or it might have been in front of him to turn the bed down.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and uh, went in the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants. . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .and put those on.
TT: What color of top did she wear to bed that night? What color top was she wearing actually to the White’s house like?
PR: Well she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that, cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pant, cause I was wearing black velvet paths and it was Christmas and all that.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And she didn’t want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap outfit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this, kind of a . . .
TT: Kind of a crew neck?
PR: . . .crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it.
TT: Okay.
PR: So I just left that on her.
TT: Okay. And I’m sorry. What kind of pants, what color of pants. . .
PR: They were black velvet. Black velvet jeans, kind of like, from the Gap. Some little black velvet vest.
TT: And what were you wearing Patsy, a, a red turtleneck and black. . .
PR: Velvet jeans, yeah.
TT: Okay.
PR: Velvet pants. And I have a Christmas sweater I was wearing.
TT: And what color was that?
PR: Red with all kinds of . . .
TT: And that was over the turtleneck.
PR: Yeah.
___

When did JB get up to supposedly put on those size 12 underwear then? If Patsy changed her pants to put her to bed, did she have the 12s on then? Would she have left them on her? So is she saying that JB got up in the night because she was soiled and put on the 12s to replace her dirty ones? JB was found with the 12s under the longjohns. Did JB get up and take off her dirty reg. size fitting undies and longjohns that Patsy said she put on her, get the 12s out of the drawer or pkg. in middle of the night, and put the longjohns back on over those? The longjohns would have been wet if she soiled her undies. She would not have put those back on. also, if the package was unopened in the drawer, is JB going to open that pkg. in the middle of the night to use those oversized 12s, rather than pull out a quick pair of her reg 4/6 size ones on and crawl back into bed?
no, things don't add up.

As for what LHP said, I did find this from here:
http://http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second-Floor#Size46Panties
Linda Hoffman-Pugh Account. "These weren't naughty children. They dressed themselves, and Patsy did JonBenet's hair. All her daughter's clothes were organized in drawers. Turtlenecks in one drawer, pants in another, nighties and panties in one, socks in another. Dates on all their underclothes (Emphasis added; this material is an excerpt from Schiller 1999 available online). Although this account does not indicate the actual size of JBR's dated underwear, nor does it indicate they were Bloomie's, this account from the Ramsey housekeeper is consistent with the National Enquirer account of there being a smaller size set of day-of-the-week Bloomies in the appropriate size for JBR...

And from here: http://http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

LHP:
"In the summer of 96, JonBenet started wearing those diaper type underpants-Pull-Ups. She even wore them to bed. There was always a wet one in the trash. By the end of the summer, Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. Then JonBenet started wetting the bed again. Almost every day I was there, there was a wet bed. Patsy said she wasn't going to use Pull-Ups again. She just put a plastic cover on the bed. No big deal to her. By the time I'd come in the morning, Patsy would have all the sheets off the bed and in the laundry. JonBenet's white blanket would already be in the dryer. The Ramseys had two washer-dryers-one in the basement and a stackable unit in a closet just outside JonBenet's room."

...Looking for the statements about Patsy opening the gifts one by one....